LymeNet Home LymeNet Home Page LymeNet Flash Discussion LymeNet Support Group Database LymeNet Literature Library LymeNet Legal Resources LymeNet Medical & Scientific Abstract Database LymeNet Newsletter Home Page LymeNet Recommended Books LymeNet Tick Pictures Search The LymeNet Site LymeNet Links LymeNet Frequently Asked Questions About The Lyme Disease Network LymeNet Menu

LymeNet on Facebook

LymeNet on Twitter




The Lyme Disease Network receives a commission from Amazon.com for each purchase originating from this site.

When purchasing from Amazon.com, please
click here first.

Thank you.

LymeNet Flash Discussion
Dedicated to the Bachmann Family

LymeNet needs your help:
LymeNet 2020 fund drive


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations.

LymeNet Flash Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » my IVIG update (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: my IVIG update
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oxygenbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yankee...zip...etc...so if you have this small fiber neuropathy or whatever that thing was called, if you get tested for that, you can get IVIG on insurance?

I called zip's doc but he doesn't take my insurance. Yankee, can you email me your doc, maybe he will, as he's different than zip's.

Otherwise I'd have to change insurance, OR, perhaps I can get one of these docs to work with a neuro within my HMO. Or I can just keep working with my own wonderful doc but I cannot get those huge amounts, it's too expensive.

Zip's doc does some of his own testing anyway...

Re: magnesium, it is helpful with cardiac stuff. A recent interview with Cheney who works on CFIDS and had a heart transplant, anyway, he said if you mix the magnesium with taurine it doesn't hurt and cause cysts, if you're giving yourself shots at home in the butt or thigh.

I don't like giving myself shots. I get it IV. It certainly is helpful and I am not denying its use as a supplement. Oral is not sufficient for me.

Also, Yank, in terms of luck--others being given prozac, some of the luck is in having a questioning personality and being smart. Many simply do not ask questions. They accept a diagnosis and take drugs for symptoms and its very sad.


Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mo
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2863

Icon 6 posted      Profile for Mo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey Yankee,

I didn't think you were bashing Marnie..

I for one am getting allot out of looking at this from as many angles as I can.
Your's and hers being two of them.

As I said, my son and I are immune deficient,
but not qualifying for IVIG, we have other "markers".

This is a good thread.

Mo


Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
8crow
Unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Small fiber neuropathy is a syndrome with many causes. Not every one with small fiber neuropathy gets IVIG, and a diagnosis of small fiber neuropathy may get you nothing. Diabetics are especially prone to development of small fiber neuropathy, leading to limb loss and autonomic neuropathy. Amyloidosis causes a massive small fiber neuropathy which is terminal. There is a paraneoplastic, associated with cancer, small fiber neuropathy. Many people get small fiber neuropathy due to alcoholism, exposure to toxins and certain drugs, flagyl being one of the perpetrtors, amitriptyline being another. Others, are born with small fiber neuropathies, called Hereditary Sensory Neuropathy I, II, III VI etc. People with radiation to the chest, and chest or head injury are prone to development of autonomic neuropathy which is a form of small fiber neuropathy. In yet another group, the immune system plays a role. In 25% of the population the cause is never determined, and it is called idiopathic small fiber neuropathy.

Small fiber neuropathy is a huge net into which many fish are caught. The first thing they do is determine is what the cause of small fiber neuropathy is, from there they proceed to management. There is no cure for small fiber neuropathy. It means simply that the non myelinated and/or thinly myelinated nerves of your body are deteriorating for some reason.

I happen to have had Lyme disease and also happen to have small fiber with the autonomic system involved as well as the sensory nerves of my body. My condition also falls into the seronegative Sjogren's Syndrome grouping and I do have a positive lip biospy on that. So that is why I get IVIG, based on that, significant small fiber degeneration on biopsy and some odd ball things that showed up in my skin biopsy. I have no serological evidence of autoimmune disease which sends any conventional rheumie into spasms.

Informed neurologists however recognize that not all autoimmune dysfunction produce abnormalities in the narrow serological marker panels drawn on people. interestingly, I have been immunized against Hep B, twice, (6 shots total) and I don't hold my immunity. IVIG is used only for cases in which the doctor can back up an autoimmune cause.

Because Lyme is called the 'great imitator' and small fiber is also a great imitator, I am wondering if Bb attacks every ones peripheral nervous system (small fiber) and it just doesn't get found because the only way to find it is skin biopsy at 4-5 sites. These biopsies look at nerve fiber density and die off patterns, not for lyme. They also look for amyloid plaques (which would be a really bad thing).

It does take persistance, as I said, I was diagnosed with lyme in 94 and treated with 3 weeks of amoxy. Forgot about it, as I was cured, even though I got sicker and sicker. I saw an LLMD in 2000 and got what I consider to be adequate treatment over about 6 months time. Over the years, I saw a variety of mainstream docs who did a variety of gatekeeper tests which in general came back normal. So then I was told I needed antidepressants. (ever heard that story before?) I could not tolerate antidepressants, nor any anticholinergic drugs. I had some severe reactions to anticholinergics and antidopaminergics, which are mainstays of chronic pain treatment regimens and of course psych treatment. I gave that stuff up many years ago, as it was so darn toxic to me, but I never knew why. Later I would find out it was my cholinergic function that was deteriorating, and wisely, just by coincidence, I should not take those drugs.

It was not until my autonomic nervous system would no longer maintain a stable blood pressure and my pulse got excessively low, did any one consider I was really sick. I had two episodes in which I went to the ER and they did do comprehensive testing as they thought I had a stroke....(that is something that they pay attention to). Only then did I get into the system and end up at a research center where they decided I was "worth" trying to salvage.

I did not have to look for a diagnosis to get IVIG, it found me. Whether or not it is the long term consequence of a Bb infection is not determined, and will remain undetermined unless of course, many Bb infected individuals get this syndrome. Like most CDC stuff, they will say I have a co-morbidity. I just happened to have Bb infection at a point in my life, but no active infection on standard lab tests.

The implication that Lyme is related to MS, which is degeneration of myelinated (large)fibers brings me around to the idea, that perhaps the fibers affected in Lyme are small fibers, giving much the same effect as large ones, only tests that indicate large fiber would be negative. Only autonomic dysfunction of a fairly severe type would get any attention....or if your foot rots off.

I happened to get 'lucky' and get the automonmic type along with the sensory type, making me look just like an advanced diabetic, in clinical terms. (It sucks) I had no idea I had this....a even partially severed a finger and barely had pain....(kiteskiing) and even then a neuropathy did not dawn on me. When my big toenails turned black after a minor injury, it did not dawn on me.....as a matter of fact it didn't dawn on me until I was seeing a neuro for autonomic neuropathy....

So a long answer to your short question....does every one with small fiber neuropathy get IVIG...no.

Lest I leave any one with the impression that this is painless, it's not. It is one of the most painful entitites in medicine, and the pain is not always 'nerve' pain as people traditionally think of it. I run the gamut, however, stiffness, profound aching, bone type pain predominates, with migranous pain in my head at times, sharp, shooting pain in limbs, aching pain in the torso, predominantly rib cage, burning feet, mouth etc. It is of all nature and varieties and it is everywhere, just like your small fibers. I get episodes where feel hung over, seasick and beat up. These are coming more often and last longer. Eventually, I suppose this is how I will always feel.

Perhpas a more pertinent question is how many people with lyme also have small fiber involvement demonstratable on skin biopsy? If that number is significant, perhaps a correlation will emerge. That may lead to a causation. But you can't put the horse before the cart. NIH should do a study on small fiber/lyme.

[This message has been edited by 8crow (edited 20 April 2005).]


IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lou
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 81

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Crow, please hit the enter key after every couple of sentences, or at least more often than you do now. These great long blocks of text are hard to read. More paragraphs, please.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
8crow
Unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sorry that little block I type in doesn't give me the full picture....

and I do get long winded.

I don't even realize how much I've typed until I see it posted....


IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oxygenbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanx Crow. I guess I don't have that. I do have muscle weakness, that improves with hyperbaric and gamma globulin. I didn't have it until my 2nd round of deep diving hyperbaric, after I stopped, I developed it. It could be yeast related as I had a huge candida flareup at that time. I have a really big issue with candida longstanding, that is a mystery to me. Why it flared up after hyperbaric, I can only imagine that being a facultative anaerobe, the deep pressure hyperbaric killed off various anaerobes in my gut and let the candida flourish as it just switch-hit to enjoy oxygen. But thats only a theory. And the combo of candida and lyme could be involved.

Example of my muscle weakness, I notice it when standing in one place for any amount of time. Or if I'm making my bed and I'm folding up the big comforter, I can feel it. No doctor would give it any credence as it doesn't significanlty alter my life. Oh yeah, and going up stairs (which I try to do whenever I can) especially subway stairs, I feel a certain burning fatigue in my muscles.

I think I will continue on the path I'm on, and do my gamma in the amounts I'm doing. I just don't have the energy or wherewithal right now to start purusing doctors who aren't covered by insurance and get all kinds of biopsies. But I think you make a good point. One lyme symptom I've had allalong is "sore skin". I think thats peripheral nerves. If your peripheral nerves are involved, I'd say its a good bet your CNS is too (which lymegraines prove in my case).

I think I may start a very graded exercise program now that spring is here, anyway. I do walk whenever I can, I think I walked about a mile and a half yesterday. That's not that hard. I may start some slow biking. When I first had lyme, after various things didn't cure me I decided I'd exercise it away. That did NOT work! LOL. I definitely could not tolerate rigorous, sweat-drenching exercise.


Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
8crow
Unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It is exhausting going thru the medical maze. When you refer to the CNS, that is basically the brain and spinal cord. Bb is definitely causative of brain inflamations. It is also linked to Bell's palsy and Guillain-Bare, both which affect the peripheral nervous system, which is defined as everything other than the brain and cord.

People assume all headaches are brain phenomena. Many small fibers invervate the scalp and musculature all over the body. I get severe headaches with projectile vomiting occassionally. Sore skin is a hallmark of peripheral neuropathy or small fiber neuropathy and many patients with small fiber neurop, or PN can't even tolerate bedsheets. Being unable to climb stairs was one of the symptoms that sent me to the cardiologist. At one point my hearing was so acute it felt like a knife every time some one dropped something....now I realize it was nerve inflammation and eventual degeneration (which lead to a lessening of symptoms or malfunction of an organ). Its a lot like a dying star becoming a flaring giant and then a dwarf.


I am not going to imply that you have what I have, that is too simplistic. However, your symptoms, as are many of those on this board, very similar to mine (yeast included).

You know what is best for you, and what you need to do at any given time to get better. I will gladly give you any resources I have. Skin biopsies are little punch biopsies, done with lidocaine anesthesia, on the foot, behind the knee, inner thigh and fore arm. Very little pain. It takes a month or more for results in general. It is a very small, barely invasive procedure. Getting the doc to do it might be more of a problem, as they have to justify why they are doing it. By the way, do you have restless leg syndrome? That is another tip off.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oxygenbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Crow, it might be tough for me within HMO to get that but please email me privately if you would, with any advice about how to get them do it (I might have to exaggerate my subjective disability).

I don't have restless leg syndrome. My sore skin is not nearly as bad as you describe. But i agree it is all peripheral nerve inflammation...I'm not sure about neuropathy...it sounded like you were saying there was lack of sensation?

I have a portable hyperbaric chamber and that has reduced my headache frequency to VERY minimal. When I started taking argentyn23 (silver) I took too much and got a horrible migraine. A doc with lyme I spoke with had the same reaction (migraines from dieoff).

I use the chamber once or twice a week for 30-45 minutes. In the beginning i used it more. Its a godsend.

[This message has been edited by oxygenbabe (edited 20 April 2005).]


Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Neil M Martin
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 2357

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Neil M Martin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Zip

1994-97 my HMO Drs. pooh-poohed my complaints of increasing fatigue. When I developed paresis in June 1997 they said I had Guillain Barre syndrome, and gave me plasmapheresis, then steroids and then 90 gram IVIG treatments. I received eleven doses of the IG Aug 19 1997 - May 10 1999,
90 grams per treatment (one gram IG per kilo body weight).

IG gave me short term, partial relief of the paresis. But I still felt SICK. And I had to get cavitation surgery on my jaws without HMO help too, starting in 1997.

In 1999 a non-HMO Dr. said I had Lyme disease. I asked the HMO for antibiotics, but it suggested that antibiotics were too dangerous. They also said there was no evidence of Lyme or any other infection.

Paying out of pocket once again I began IV antibiotics on May 17, 1999: they enabled me to keep the paresis in check (my HMO Drs have not given me IVIG since May 10, 1999)
but when I asked my HMO Dr. to give me both IG and antibiotics he suggested that IG is too dangerous.

IV & later oral antibiotics did me more good than IVIG alone so it seems sensible (if politically incorrect) to boost immune system with IG and bash Bb with Abx.

Oral IG gave me some short term benefit, but nothing like the IV benefit.

Neil


Posts: 697 | From Tucson, AZ USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
8crow
Unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Neil,

They are denying your IVIG, despite Guillain-Barre? Holy cow! That is amazing. Insurance companies are a crock. I am glad to hear the oral abx keeps it in check.

My IVIG does cut down my numbness and tingling, but, I still feel sick...seasick, sore and beat up. Again, it does nothing for pain either, and mine wears off after about 3 weeks. I am due next week for another infusion and I feel like crap.

I would have to travel significantly out of state to get antibiotics again, and pay for them out of pocket, not to mention the doctor bill, but worst come to worst, I will, after hearing your story.

Thanks for sharing.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Marnie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This small fiber neuropathy may have been discussed before on this board (for newbies):
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/031389.html

How do we know that the IVIG (intravenous immunoglobulins) given are those specific for eliminating Bb?

The immunoglobulins (antibodies) we normally make ourselves are very, very specific for fighting each particular pathogen and each particular strain, are they not?

Years ago it was referred to as a lock and key type of response (I'm showing my age
;-). And we all know how exact that has to be. Miss-cut keys don't fit the locks.

Does anyone know whether in the process of harvesting these immunoglobulins from donated blood, are the manufacturers specifically only harvesting those to fight Bb...and those to fight what strain of Bb (there are many strains)?

Is IVIG matched to your strain of Bb?

Just wondering. Just trying to understand.

Oxygenbabe, you said: ``Marnie, why did you hijack an IVIG thread to repost the stuff you always do about magnesium?''

Hijack?

``Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included.''
http://www.mdschoice.com/elements/elements/major_minerals/magnesium.htm

And this discussion IS about immunoglobulins. This IS a piece of the puzzle. A big one.

It takes enough Mg and Ca to repair the fab portion of the antibody/immunoglobulin specifically designed to knock off Bb. (Pubmed abstract)

There might be someone reading this thread (a newbie) who wants to know what nutrients it takes to make more of their own healthy immunoglobulins (antibodies) esp. if they are unable to get IVIG.

IV doses of Mg to treat lyme and/or to treat "autoimmune" diseases in a controlled setting (hospital, monitored and *sustained* until the infection has cleared) has unfortunately not been tried in this country. IMO, it should be considered.


[This message has been edited by Marnie (edited 21 April 2005).]


Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zipzip
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6226

Icon 1 posted      Profile for zipzip     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 8crow:
Neil,
My IVIG does cut down my numbness and tingling, but, I still feel sick...seasick, sore and beat up. Again, it does nothing for pain either, and mine wears off after about 3 weeks. .

it goes out of your system within 3 weeks. you should beat your dr down until he moves you up to a bi-weekly or a thrid week infusion schedule. it will make a huge difference.


Posts: 795 | From nyc | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oxygenbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My assumptions about IVIG and why it helps:

1) In chronic infection the entire body is skewed toward an inadequate immune response generally with too much inflammation, one arm of immune system overactive the other underactive, with all kinds of signalling screwups imo that we don't even know about as its so complex

2) Adding in 2000-5000 donor pooled antibodies gives you a wide spectrum of effective antibodies against all kinds of stuff, giving your immune system extra arsenal to fight everything it normally fights and keeps in check and is now having big trouble doing because it has a massive lyme infection and coinfections like babesia etc. Thus in come the replacement troops to quiet everything down including HHV, EBV, all kinds of typical pathogens even gut pathogens etc

3) HLA subtypes are important as certain subtypes are more prone to difficulties in chronic lyme and thus you are getting a bellcurve of the populations HLA and it will quiet down your own response if you have the subtypes that are linked to chronic lyme through molecular mimicry. This may be one important key

4) We don't know how else these antibodies and immune components funciton to give NEW INFORMATION to our own immune systems while they are there (passive antibodies--we don't start generating them as a result).

This is like an overhaul of the entire immune system putting it temporarily much more back on track. It also affects the nervous system and I can say that for a fact as I feel distinctly different after it, I feel calmer and expanded, I called it "cottony plushness"--I am more in the world and able to feel it without being jitter, overstimulated, weak, bla bla bla.

Evidence based medicine shows it to be so widely effective in so many immune and nervous disorders that alone should be convincing and we will probably never understand all the intricate mechanisms.

Marnie, a proof of any hypothesis is testing. So go test your hypothesis please, and come back with a definitive case, even one, even though that would just be a weak correlation. If you can't, maybe you will someday consider that your hypothesis is incorrect.


Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117

Icon 1 posted      Profile for treepatrol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oxygenbabe:

Marnie, a proof of any hypothesis is testing. So go test your hypothesis please, and come back with a definitive case, even one, even though that would just be a weak correlation. If you can't, maybe you will someday consider that your hypothesis is incorrect.



My father had another heart attack a month ago and when they were trying to get him regulated heart beating to fast Do you know what blood work was called for?? thats right magnesium and potassium both were extremely low guess what they gave him the vary same which brought everything back to normal.

So I would say magnesium is pretty well needed for the heart and nerves to work?

And it is need for rebuilding of cells. Not a (hypothesis)

Marnie is right on the Mg.

Main Entry: magnesium chloride
Function: noun
: a bitter crystalline salt MgCl2 used especially to replenish body electrolytes

Main Entry: magnesium sulfate
Function: noun
: a white anhydrous salt MgSO4 that occurs naturally in hydrated form as Epsom salts and that in the hydrated form MgSO4�7H2O is administered in aqueous solution by injection to treat magnesium deficiency, to control convulsions associated with eclampsia, and to treat symptoms (as hypertension and convulsions) associated with nephritis in children

Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance


from Southern Medical Journal
Chester Fox, MD, Delano Ramsoomair, MD, Cathleen Carter, PhD

Abstract and Introduction
Abstract
Magnesium is the fourth most abundant cation in the body and is present in more than 300 enzymatic systems, where it is crucial for adenosine triphosphate (ATP) metabolism. Deficiency states result in increased insulin resistance, as well as increased smooth muscle and platelet reactivity. Magnesium deficiency has been shown to correlate with a number of chronic cardiovascular diseases, including hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and hyperlipidemia. Intravenous magnesium has been used therapeutically in critical situations such as status asthmaticus, torsades de pointes, and preeclampsia. Few controlled studies exist regarding the therapeutic uses of oral magnesium supplementation in chronic cardiovascular diseases. Randomized clinical trials are urgently needed to determine whether magnesium supplementation will alter the natural history of these disease states.

Introduction
The clinical significance of magnesium as an important intracellular cation has been implied for decades.[1] Recently, magnesium deficiency has been implicated in the pathogenesis of a host of clinical disorders.[2] In an editorial, Resnick[3] stated, "A link between magnesium, diabetes mellitus, and hypertension seems established beyond a reasonable doubt."
Magnesium is the fourth most abundant cation in the body. It is involved in more than 300 enzymatic systems, such as adenosine triphosphate (ATP) metabolism, activation of creatine kinase, adenylate cyclase, and sodium-potassium-ATPase. Magnesium deficiency has been implicated in such diseases as diabetes, hypertension, cardiac arrhythmias, acute myocardial infarction, and atherosclerosis. This has come under increasing scrutiny in several recent publications.[3-5]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 1 of 9


Chester Fox, MD, Delano Ramsoomair, MD, Cathleen Carter, PhD, Department of Family Medicine, State University of New York at Buffalo

Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Magnesium Metabolism and Physiology
The total body stores of magnesium are between 21 and 28 g in the average 70 kg adult. Normal serum magnesium usually has a range of 1.7 to 2.5 mg/dL. Most of the body's magnesium is in the skeletal bone mass, which accounts for more than 50% of the body's stores. The remainder is located in soft tissue, of which only 0.3% is located extracellularly. The common nutritional sources of magnesium are green leafy vegetables, legumes, nuts, and animal protein.[6]
Of the total magnesium consumed, approximately 30% to 50% is absorbed, mainly from the upper small intestine. The level of absorption of magnesium varies, depending on endogenous magnesium status. Magnesium is excreted via the kidneys. When magnesium stores are normal, excretion usually equates with absorption. There is a circadian excretory rhythm, with the maximal excretion occurring at night. Approximately one third of serum magnesium is bound to albumin and therefore is not filterable at the glomerulus. A total of 20% of serum magnesium is filtered by the kidneys, from which 50% to 60% is reabsorbed by the ascending loop of Henle, in contrast to other major electrolytes, which are reabsorbed principally at the proximal loop of Henle.

Extracellular magnesium in serum is 33% protein bound, 12% complexed to anions, and 55% in the free ionized form. At the cellular level, magnesium appears to influence the properties of various cell membranes; this process is thought to occur by means of calcium channels and ion transport mechanisms. Calcium flux is inhibited by magnesium from sarcolemmal membranes, through competition for binding sites on actin and via changes in the adenylate cyclase-cyclic AMP system. The next known physiologic role of magnesium involving cell membranes pertains specifically to its interrelationship with the sodium-potassium-ATPase pump. At the cellular level, magnesium also serves as a cofactor for many intracellular enzymes that generate energy via hydrolysis of ATP. It is also involved in DNA transcription and protein synthesis. Magnesium is responsible for the maintenance of transmembrane gradients of sodium and potassium. Patients with refractory hypokalemia will often not respond to potassium supplementation until magnesium deficiency is corrected.[6-8] As a result, magnesium deficiency should be considered whenever severe potassium deficiency is encountered.

From this short review, it is apparent that magnesium plays many roles in energy metabolism: as an enzyme cofactor, in electrolyte balance, and in the maintenance of the properties of various cell membranes. From this background, magnesium deficiency is being considered as an important mediator in various medical conditions.


Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Diagnosis of Magnesium Deficiency
The serum magnesium level correlates poorly with total body stores.[4] As a result, there have been several intracellular assays of magnesium from muscle biopsy, lymphocytes, and red blood cells. These assays include nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy[9] and ion-specific electrode measures.[10] However, these tests are expensive and often require fresh specimens and are therefore not clinically applicable at present. For these reasons, despite its limitations, serum magnesium determination is deemed of value in assessing changes in magnesium status and is the entry level test for the evaluation of possible disorders of magnesium metabolism. When the serum magnesium level is low, intracellular magnesium is also low.[11,12] However, many patients may have normal serum magnesium levels but be intracellularly depleted.[6,13] Therefore, if the serum magnesium level is low, the patient is deficient; however, if it is normal, the patient may still be magnesium deficient.


Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Biologic Mechanisms
A review of the literature reveals three biologic mechanisms that could potentially explain the physiologic effects of magnesium in hypertension, diabetes, and hyperlipidemia. First, magnesium deficiency causes a dysregulation of the Na-Mg exchanger, resulting in higher intracellular sodium and higher blood pressure. Second, a relatively low magnesium level creates an intracellular imbalance between calcium and magnesium, which results in increased vascular tone in the smooth muscle of the artery and therefore increased blood pressure. Third, magnesium deficiency causes insulin resistance, which in turn causes hyperinsulinemia, resulting in hypertension, diabetes, and hyperlipidemia.

Dysregulation of the Na-Mg Exchanger
A study of cyclosporine toxicity in spontaneously hypertensive rats found that rats placed on a low sodium diet did not get hypertension or nephrotoxicity, but during a high sodium diet, both these diseases occurred. These deleterious effects were blocked by magnesium supplementation,[14] revealing a causal relationship between magnesium and hypertension in spontaneously hypertensive rats. This result has implications for clinical trials because it may be that the hypotensive effect of a rigorously followed low-salt diet obviates the need for magnesium supplementation to improve blood pressure even in the face of magnesium deficiency. Some of the negative clinical trials for magnesium replacement did have patients on low salt diets.[15,16] This defect in the Na-Mg exchanger that results in higher intracellular sodium and lower intracellular magnesium was found in at least three other studies of patients with essential hypertension.[17-19]

Increased Vascular Tone
Again, both rat and human studies confirm that in the presence of decreased magnesium, there is increased intracellular calcium, resulting in increased vascular tone and hypertension. In a basic physiologic study that looked at isolated aortas from both normotensive and desoxycorticosterone acetate (DOCA)-salt hypertensive rats, it was found that "changes in extracellular magnesium concentration differentially alter endothelin-1-induced contraction in aortae from normotensive and hypertensive rats, possibly by interfering with calcium utilization during contraction."[20] In other animal studies, a salt load produced an increase in intracellular calcium with a concomitant decrease in magnesium.[21-23] This intracellular imbalance between magnesium and calcium has also been found in human studies.[24,25] There appears to be a clear connection between decreased magnesium, increased vascular tone, and essential hypertension.

Insulin Resistance
Insulin resistance has emerged as a major pathophysiologic mechanism for the creation of atherosclerosis in the body. Magnesium deficiency has clearly been shown to create insulin resistance.[24] This may well be a common link in increased cardiovascular risk, because hyperinsulinemia is related to hypertension, diabetes, and hyperlipidemia.[26]
This discussion shows strong evidence linking magnesium deficiency with altered physiologic states and chronic disease.

Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Prevalence Of Hypomagnesemia
The prevalence of hypomagnesemia has been found to vary widely, depending on the patient's clinical condition. In a general population, 6.9% of patients were shown to be hypomagnesemic.[6] In hospital inpatients on a medical-surgical floor, there was a prevalence of 11%,[27] while in the intensive care unit it was found to be 20%.[28] In a postoperative intensive care unit setting, the prevalence was 60%.[28] A study of diabetic patients established a prevalence of 25%.[29] We did a 2-month period prevalence study of magnesium levels for 120 patients in an urban minority clinic and found that 24% of hypertensive patients and 25% of diabetic patients were hypomagnesemic.[30]

Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Epidemiology
Epidemiologic studies have shown an inverse relationship between magnesium in the drinking water and cardiovascular mortality.[31,32] This association between magnesium in drinking water and ischemic heart disease was reconfirmed in a major review of the literature done by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University.[33]
The largest epidemiologic study of magnesium status was the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) study, published in 1995.[34] This was a 5-year, longitudinal study that examined 15,000 patients and compared dietary magnesium, serum magnesium, and race with the prevalence of hypertension, diabetes, and atherosclerosis. The study controlled for the potential confounding variables of age and body mass index. The results showed that African Americans had lower dietary magnesium intake along with lower serum magnesium levels, which significantly correlated with a higher prevalence of hypertension, diabetes, and atherosclerosis.

Finally, a 10-year study of 400 high-risk subjects predisposed to coronary artery disease were divided into two groups -- one that received a magnesium-rich diet and another group that received a "usual" diet. Increased dietary magnesium was shown to correlate with fewer cases of sudden death, less total mortality, and a lower incidence of hypokalemia, hypomagnesemia, and other coronary risk factors. The group that had lower dietary magnesium also had a lower mean serum magnesium level.[35]


Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Clinical Signs and Symptoms
Magnesium deficiency is almost always asymptomatic. There are no pathognomonic signs and symptoms of the magnesium deficient state. The situation must be severe if clinical manifestations are to occur. This would also always be accompanied by a low serum magnesium level. Symptoms, when they do occur, generally fall into the categories of cardiac effects, metabolic effects, and neurologic effects (Table 1).

Clinical Correlations
Magnesium has been associated with a number of chronic diseases, such as hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and hyperlipidemia. Studies showing the effect of magnesium supplementation on these clinical states are summarized in Table 2. We found 15 studies in which magnesium supplementation was used to measure the effect on hypertension. Ten of these studies (67%) showed a statistically significant decrease of blood pressure with the use of magnesium. In patients with diabetes, 3 studies looked at the effect of magnesium replacement on hemoglobin A1C. None of these investigations showed a statistically significant effect. Two studies examined the effect of magnesium supplementation on hyperlipidemia. Both of these showed decreased triglycerides, and one of them showed a decreased low-density lipoprotein/high-density lipoprotein ratio.

Diabetes Mellitus
The clinical correlation between decreased plasma magnesium and the diabetic condition was first proposed by Londono and Rosenbloom[36] in 1971. This was shown in diabetic children after a glucagon injection induced a significant decline in plasma magnesium levels.
The inverse relationship between glycemic control and plasma magnesium levels has been attributed to increased magnesium urinary losses. McNair et al[37] observed that in the presence of hypomagnesemia, magnesium plasma levels were inversely correlated with fasting blood glucose values and urinary magnesium. The conclusion was that net tubular reabsorption of magnesium was decreased in severe hyperglycemia. The relationship between metabolic control and impaired magnesium balance was confirmed by Fugii et al,[38] who analyzed magnesium levels in plasma, erythrocytes, and urine of diabetic patients.

The role of magnesium in the pathogenesis of macroangiopathy and microangiopathy have been the subject of several investigators. Seelig and Heggtveit,[39] as well as Mather,[29] suggested that atherosclerotic disease may be prevented by normal magnesium homeostasis by counteracting the adverse effects of excessive intracellular calcium, thereby retaining intracellular potassium and contributing both to the stabilizing of plasma membrane and maintaining the integrity of subcellular structures.


Hypertension
Considerable evidence suggests a linkage between magnesium deficiency and hypertension. One study showed reduced intracellular free magnesium concentration in hypertensive laboratory animals as well as in human subjects. The researchers described an inverse relationship between intracellular magnesium concentration and blood pressure.[19]
Magnesium has been implicated in a regulatory role in a variety of cellular ion channels and pumps that modulate peripheral vascular tone; these include sodium-potassium-ATPase and calcium-activated potassium channels, as well as calcium calmodulin binding. In each of these instances, low intracellular magnesium levels would potentiate calcium-dependent vasoconstriction.


Do you need more.

Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Therapeutic Uses
Cardiac Arrhythmias
Magnesium deficiency in the pathogenesis of cardiac arrhythmias has recently been accepted. This is exemplified in the latest Advanced Cardiac Life Support protocol for the treatment of torsades de pointes. In experimental models, magnesium deficiency results in a number of electrocardiographic alterations, as well as changes in automaticity and conduction. Among the electrocardiographic changes are prolonged PR interval and QT interval, premature atrial complexes, atrial tachycardia, and fibrillation. Ventricular premature complexes and tachycardia have also been noted, in addition to ventricular fibrillation and torsades de pointes.
Magnesium is a crucial cofactor in the sodium-potassium-ATPase enzyme system, which contributes to the sodium and potassium flux across cell membranes. This flux in turn determines the potential needed for depolarization of cardiac muscle. Of note, digitalis blocks the sodium-potassium-ATPase enzyme system; it has been shown in the dog model that hypomagnesemia facilitated digitalis-toxic arrhythmias and that most of these arrhythmias were terminated with intravenous magnesium sulfate.[40]

Iseri et al[41] showed that ventricular arrhythmias recalcitrant to antiarrhythmics (lidocaine or beryllium) or to potassium supplementation responded to magnesium used as a therapeutic agent. This response occurred even in the presence of normal serum magnesium levels.

In several of the cases mentioned, the arrhythmia appeared to be that of torsades de pointes, and studies have indeed shown therapeutic confirmation in the abolition of this arrhythmia by bolus infusion of magnesium.


Acute Myocardial Infarction and Ischemic Heart Disease
Magnesium's effect as it pertains to acute myocardial infarction has been difficult to interpret, especially with respect to mortality rate differences.[42] This has occurred because of nebulous reporting of concomitant use of therapy with �-blockers, aspirin, or antiarrhythmics and different lengths of observations.
Schecter et al[43] concluded that the cardioprotective effect of magnesium was more of a general myocardial protective effect than one solely due to reduction of arrhythmias. They postulated that among the possible mechanisms included were coronary vasodilatation, reduction of the catecholamine effect in myocardial tissue, and calcium-magnesium interactions at the cellular level preventing ischemic deposition of calcium in cardiac mitochondria.

The LIMIT-2 study of 1992 was the first large-scale randomized placebo-controlled trial to show a decrease in total mortality of the magnesium-treated group; this effect reached statistical significance.[44] The second large-scale trial to study survival after myocardial infarction in patients given magnesium infusion was the ISIS-4 trial.[45] The ISIS-4 study showed no survival benefit from the addition of intravenous magnesium. In a recent review of these contradictory results, Hennekens et al[46] stated, "Nonetheless, the data suggesting that early magnesium therapy reduces reperfusion-related injury have led to the hypothesis that the longer time between the start of myocardial reperfusion and the achievement of therapeutic serum magnesium concentrations may account for the null finding in ISIS-4."


Preeclampsia
The use of parenteral magnesium as a therapeutic modality in the treatment of preeclampsia is time honored. The proposed mechanism of action relates to magnesium acting as a calcium antagonist either at the membrane level or intracellularly. Although magnesium-induced reduction in vascular tone is partially explained by altered calcium flux,[2] it may also produce this effect by altering the prostaglandin system. Watson et al[47] showed that magnesium facilitated release of potent vasodilatory prostaglandin in a dose-dependent manner. They suggested that increased prostaglandin is the explanation for magnesium's therapeutic effect in preeclampsia.

Asthma
The utility of magnesium as a therapeutic modality in the treatment of asthma has been alluded to for decades.[13] Two studies have shown that magnesium infusions increased the forced expiratory volume in 1 second (FEV1),[13] though the mechanism of action on the respiratory tree remains to be elucidated. One proposed mechanism is smooth muscle relaxation at the bronchial level. This is similar to the effect exerted by magnesium on vascular smooth muscle by means of its influence on calcium channels.[2]

Magnesium: Its Proven and Potential Clinical Significance
from Southern Medical Journal

Conclusion
Magnesium is critical to normal human homeostasis. Pharmacologic doses of magnesium given intravenously have been used to successfully treat such critical conditions as torsades de pointes, preeclampsia, and status asthmaticus. The usefulness of magnesium in acute myocardial infarction has yet to be fully elucidated. Deficiency states have been shown to correlate with the chronic cardiovascular diseases of hypertension, diabetes, and hyperlipidemia. Numerous studies have called for randomized controlled trials to determine whether magnesium replacement will alter the natural history of these diseases. Previous trials of magnesium supplementation have not answered the question of whether magnesium replacement would improve the health status of patients afflicted with chronic cardiovascular diseases.
Research on magnesium continues to grow as exemplified by a recent paper on the inverse relationship between prenatal magnesium sulfate exposure and cerebral palsy or mental retardation among very low birth weight children.[48]

Randomized controlled trials need to be done to see whether magnesium supplementation will ameliorate the debilitating effects of hypertension, diabetes, and hyperlipidemia, especially in minority populations.[34,49] The clinical implications of replacement therapy, if successful, would have a profound effect on improving the health of the population.

I think its important dont you?


Posts: 10564 | From PA Where the Creeks are Red | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117

Icon 1 posted      Profile for treepatrol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MG 1

MG 2


Posts: 10564 | From PA Where the Creeks are Red | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oxygenbabe     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not even going to read that long post treepatrol as you obviously never read mine. I always say I supplement with IV magnesium weekly and it helps me. I never said it wasnt valuable esp in cardiac problems. This is one reason lymenut is lymenut although this particularly thread has been very helpful to me (the IVIG part).

It just in no way, absolutely no way, cures lyme by generating proper antibodies or whatever mechanism she thinks.

I'm off lymenut for a while.


Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117

Icon 1 posted      Profile for treepatrol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe with that attidude you should take a break. And by the way I do not like this forum being called lymenut.

Its lymenet and I do read your stuff and there is a correlation in my thred to yours its Mg is needed for tons of things in the body and there is plenty of (by the medical community) Why arent we studying this more Medical professionals.

So bashing M for her posts wasnt right IMO.


Posts: 10564 | From PA Where the Creeks are Red | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code� is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | LymeNet home page | Privacy Statement

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:

The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey
907 Pebble Creek Court, Pennington, NJ 08534 USA


| Flash Discussion | Support Groups | On-Line Library
Legal Resources | Medical Abstracts | Newsletter | Books
Pictures | Site Search | Links | Help/Questions
About LymeNet | Contact Us

© 1993-2020 The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Use of the LymeNet Site is subject to Terms and Conditions.