I went to the website and poked around
for an hour and I don't get it..

They talk about removing everything
from your diet that contains Vitimin D.
No offense but to me that sounds crazy.
You need Vitimin D to live properly
don't you? I think I read also that
you are supposed to avoid all sunlight?

I appoligize up front if I sound mean
or like a jerk. I am not trying
to do that. I just want to understand
what this is since I've heard this
Marshall Protocol mentioned here on
this site. Maybe I read the wrong posts
on the other board..

So can some very breifly explain what
this Marshal Protocol is all about in
maybe 2 or 3 sentances?

some results, as with me, were increases body temp.and 90% reduction in joint pain, over a week while taking VitD3(cholcalciferol)X 400 i.u.+ the little calcium carbonate per cap., that came with it.
Starting dose was two caps; then increased by one capsule per day until I finished the small bottle for a totally daily dose of 1200 i.u. of vitD3.
I did NOT want to take any mineral supplement with it, the thinking being that i did not want to confound any results/minimize them.

also, i took nothing else, when i tried this. i was very impressed with the results on the reduction of joint pain. i was able to resume using teh mouse on the computer. i went off it and joint pains, including spinal joint pains, returned.

One interpretation of the results, according to studies on the use of vit.D in multiple sclerosis, autoimmune and other studies,would be reduced immune sys. cell aggression,and thusly of joint pain.

For further consideration, search this or the general forum for UN "Wabbit" for discussion on vit D.

also, see yahoo discussion groups on CFS, and ask about vit D. Many links to essays and results of studies on the use of vitD in many diseases/conditions.

[This message has been edited by pq (edited 29 April 2005).]

It seems like dsiebenh is saying the protocal avoids vitamin D and pq is saying it includes taking vitamin D...

I completely don't understand what pq is saying.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsiebenh:
Avoiding D and taking Benicar inhibits the inflammatory processes that allow cell wall deficient bacteria to hide from your immune system. Taking low doses of antibiotics weakens the bacteria. Your immune system can then find, and kill, the bacteria.

---

That's the theory behind the MP, but there is no scientific proof that it is true. That website is very misleading, because they don't keep accurate statistics of who is succeeding on the protocol, and anyone who doesn't improve or worsens on the protocol is told they must be doing it wrong or kicked off the site altogether.

Last fall I desperately wanted to do this protocol,but my LLMD wouldn't let me because he thought it sounded risky. I was devastated at the time, but now I am grateful. I have heard of a number of people who have done badly on it. I think Benicar itself may have its uses, but eliminating vitamin D probably is dangerous.

"Bb cannot get inside cells when there is no vitamin D around. Bb stays out of cells."

...this correctly conveys what the MP site tells its readers is a medical fact.

However, like many such statements on the MP site, this is simply an assertion. You cannot find one Pub Med reference to support it.

I can't prove it, but I would bet my last dollar that Marshall arrived at this notion by misreading a study one CAN find in Pub Med. I've lost the link, but will search and post it here if I can retrieve it.

Here's the gist of the finding. It's worth paying attention, Aranelli, because its an object lesson in how a little truth is a dangerous thing.

Imagine two petry dishes, and in one you have a medium with macrophages and CWD bacteria and 1,25-D, and the other is identical but has no 1,25-D.

You come to check on them, and discover that there are more infected macrophages in the dish with the 1,25-D.

You then look more closely and determine that in fact the same number of macrophages have been infected in both dishes. The difference is that the 1,25-D macrophages are stronger, and don't lyse (split open) when invaded. So the difference is x number of intact infected macrophages vs. x number of dead infected macrophages.

If you're the MP site, this is where you end the experiment.

If you're the author of this study, though, you have more curiosity, so you watch what happens AFTER the cells are invaded. And it turns out that in the 1,25-D dish, the macrophages are killing the heck out of their pathogens, but in the other dish, fewer macrophages are fighting back.

There is an INCREASE of bacterocidal activity in macrophages exposed to 1,25-D.

And this is not seperate from the fact that the 1,25-D macrophages are stronger, both the enhanced bug-killing and the structural integrity are a function of increased macrophage MATURITY, a commonly cited effect of 1,25-D as immune-modulator.

It is why patients who are D deficient are more vulnerable to certain infections.

Jacques Lemiere, who Marshall quotes on the question of 1,25-D's role, says very plainly that there is NO loss of resistance to infection in Sarcoidosis, even in that subset of patients whose serum levels are sharply elevated. Too much vitamin D causes hypercalcemia. It does not "hide pathogens."

Would you be so keen on avoiding the sun and fish, if you knew that all you were doing was minimizing the risk of hypercalcemia?

And actually, you aren't even doing that, because the most common cause (80%) of hypercalcemia is hyperparathyroidism, which can in turn be caused by TOO LITTLE vitamin D.

Not to mention that the D-deficiency you are deliberately cultivating fuels inflammation, rather than soothing it.

Low levels of vitamin D3 are implicated in MS, are significant enough in arthritis that d supplementation reduces inflammatory markers.

Lab animals fed the active metabolite of vitamin D do not get sick when innoculated with borrelia burgdorferi, when the same lab animals not fed D3 are crippled by Lyme arthritis.

1,25-D has recently been found to reduce the most common form of high blood pressure significantly, with none of the side effects common to medications for hypertension.

This is suggestive of the effect of combining d-deprivation with huge doses of Benicar, a blood pressure medication. It amounts to taking away with one hand what you only partially give back with the other. There is an apparent anti-inflammatory benefit to Benicar, but it is not the same as the anti-inflammatory benefit of 1,25-D, in part because it weakens macrophages function rather than enhancing it.

Vitamin D is known to greatly reduce the risk of several common forms of cancer. Osteoarthritis patients in the upper 1/3 of d consumption have a 300% lower risk of progression than those in the bottom 2/3.

In the only study ever performed on vitamin D and symptom exacerbation cycles in MS, patients reported significant improvements on a sustained course of vitamin D supplementation.

Ths is the substance that the MP describes as "fueling inflammation." It's a total non-sequitor, an inversion of what is known about 1,25-D's role in immunology.

If the MP sites goal is helping patients make informed medical decisions, it is doing a very poor job of it. To many of us it seems to be pursuing a rather different agenda.

I say that as a former member of the MP site staff. It has never been clear to me that the site values the kind of open exchange that prevents gross mistakes like this one about 1,25-D from acquiring a loyal following. Indeed, members are routinely banned for posting information that is freely available through Pub Med.

I have extremely high 1,25 D. I am doing VERY well. According to what you are saying it is likely because of my high 1,25 D that I am doing so well. The other protocol says I am doing so well because of the steroid effect, reducing inflammation, giving me a false sense of well being. All the while the pathogens are marching on in mass.

In evaluating this treatment as a possibility for borreliosis, my hypothesis was that if it i take vitD3, I should get worse.

I did not get worse.

I actually had a reduction in pain in many joints, most notibly, my right elbow joint. After a week, I was once again to use the computer mouse with my right hand and only after 1 week;for 2-3weeks prior to this, I tried to use my right arm as little as possible because of elbow, and other joint pain upon use.I was getting really concerned. I haven't done vitamin D3 for approx. 3-4 weeks and the elbow pain is back.

Secondly, I had an increase in body temp., an increase NOT assoc. w/ a cold or flu.

Thirdly, the increase was noticed in the left hand side of my face, with a particularly warm left pinna, something that hasn't happened, both since wtihin the first 2 years of infection, AND upon antibiotic therapy.

Fourth, and w/rt to the "family jewels," the right sack had an an increase in temp., and particularly at the point were a urologist had inserted a needle for a pre-op anesthetic
3 years prior! Ironically, the vitD3 produced some the very same sensations as did the abx, cephalexin, taken post-operatively for yet a different surgery in 2003.

Again, this was just one test-consideration on myself, but within the overall picture of my health. Given this result within the context of my over-all health status, and my research into this treatment being discussed, I concluded against it for myself.

pq

[This message has been edited by pq (edited 29 April 2005).]

Lack of vitamin D supposed to prevent Bb from entering cells. The difference between medium amount of vitamin D and large amount of vitamin D (as in your experiment) may be quite a different thing that difference between no vitamin D and medium amount of vitamin D (that happens during MP treatment).

In your experiment (if we follow MP logic) in abundance of vitamin D your Bb went into intracellular hiding places. How that manifest clinically is unknown but we cannot exclude temporary improvement.

The MP site implies that it's founder toils all alone in this field, but the reality is that this is one of the most heavily researched areas of immunology over the last few decades, since VDR (vitamin D receptor) gene expression was found to be pervasive in the immune system, and researchers got excited and started asking 'what the heck do all these receptors actually do?'

And Aranelli, you simply MUST acquaint yourself with the MS map, google it till you find one for the US that will show you that MS thrives where the sun never shines bright enough in the non-summer months for the skin to synthesize ANY vitamin D, and you will realize that what is being proposed as treatment is in fact almost an invitation to our neurologically noxious disease to progress and take our minds down the rabbit hole that leads to chronic pain, disorientation, eventually dementia.

Which frankly is a consideration in assessing the mentality on the MP site, that in my opinion shows signs of having been holed up in a dark room for entirely too long.

Now some do get better, a minority but worth thinking about, and I believe personally that the cessation of prior therapies which the MP requires and the sensory deprivation (no daylight excursions, sunglasses indoors) give people with a certain type of illness, in a certain stage of recovery, most of them having had extensive prior treatment, an opportunity to catch their breath.

But this cannot excuse commending D-deprivation, which has no benefit other than the avoidance of D-toxicity, which never threatened more than a small percentage of us in the first place, because only in Sarcoidosis is D regulation consistently impaired, and even there it is not impaired in the way the MP site implies.

I am sorry to honk on at you, Aranelli, but I have admired your brave spirit, rankled at how you are sometimes received on Lymenet, taken a liking to you, and now cannot bear to hear you defending what I believe in my heart to be a pile of deliberate or unintentional fibs.

Your friend,

Inappropriate personal interactions from MP site don't contribute much as they may have other reasons.

Being on the site staff was such a pressure cooker. I can be an idiot all on my own, but I was receiving a lot of help in those days.

I remember how restrained you were, how your posts remained polite when you were treated poorly, and how your note of skepticism was always balanced by a willingness to be persuaded, if new facts or insights emerged.

Your example was and is inspiring.

True. But some controlled studies on high dose Benicar will go a long way to shedding some light on the claims. ANd I think you'll see some in the future (probably by the Mfg. of Benicar).

What I doubt you'll see is a study on Vit. D and light deprivation (unless it's on the poor rat).