I am NOT a doctor or a nutritionist. This plan of action comes from almost 4 years of non-stop research and hundreds of MS word files I have collected.

When nonstop heavy dose antibiotics for Bb and babesia seemed to fail my sister, I wanted to know WHY. Why did her knees literally dissolve? Why does she still battle with edema, depression, and inflammation (despite being on Humira)?

She took a LOT of nutrient supplements along with her antibiotics...countless bottles on her countertop. Does she still have lyme or is her system still out of balance...nutritionally speaking? I think her body is out of balance.

This is what I would do, NOT what I am recommending YOU do! If you chose to go the ``traditional route'' i.e., abx. stop reading now. I am a member of the ``alternative camp''.

Here goes:

If I saw a tick on me, I would NOT attempt to remove it myself. I would go to the nearest medical facility and plead with them to inject lidocaine with epinephrine under it to get it to release (info. from Canada). Hopefully, the tick would not ``spit'' Bb and co-infections into my system as it was removed. I would request the tick be tested for the presence of Bb.

While awaiting the results...

Once home, I would immediately make up a wet activated charcoal pack and leave it in place (the area of the attachment) for several hours. To clean the area off afterwards (blackens the skin), I would use H202 and if nec., a solution of Oxyclean followed by a normal cleansing (soap and water). Activated charcoal is a local ``detox''. I would then likely apply a ``drawing salve'' of old, like Prid.

Next, I would call for an appointment to do several Rife treatments. Fortunately I live in a state that embraces alternative therapies and we have a state-of-the-art unit available here (frequencies thru a light source, computer driven). I have researched this in DEPTH...books, internet, videos, etc. I know what frequencies to use in what sequence.

This, I know, will freak most of you out if you are still reading...I would NOT take antibiotics for many reasons. I do not want to alter my immune response, deplete the minerals further which are necessary to make my own highly targeted antibodies, and destroy the beneficial bacteria in my GI system.

I would immediately ``clean up my act''. I admit I have some very bad habits.

I would hop in the car and head for GNC and my Supervalue Nutrition store to pick up some highly selected supplements.

Then I'd head for our (albeit expensive) new grocery store that carries organic foods. I'd buy tons of fruits and veggies.

On my way home, I'd swing by the library to get books on a vegetarian diet for recipe ideas. I would eat as many fresh, not cooked, fruits and veggies as possible after washing them. I know I must watch my B12 level. I would learn to like soy products (yuck), but would likely add an egg, 3x/week soft boiled or over-easy for very important reasons.

My beverage of choice would be reverse osmosis water (like AquaFina) and I would stock up on it because I would greatly increase my water consumption to 6 bottles a day. Reverse osmosis takes fluoride out, the filter in my refrig. does not. Other than water, my only beverage likely would be V-8 juice, unless I decided to get into ``juicing''. Decaf green tea is okay if you are a tea drinker. Coffee is out...causes an insulin spike.

I would start taking walks every day for 1 hour at a leisurely pace - faithfully. If it was raining, I'd get on my exercise equipment that now serves as a place to hold clothes.

When the sun is shining, I'd be sure to get outside WITHOUT sunscreen for at least 10 minutes per day.

I would hop in my spa and then in my pool alternately. Heat - cold - heat - cold stimulates the immune system. If it was raining, I would do this in the morning when I take a shower. I would use coconut oil based soap.

I would stop using deodorant that contains aluminum.

At night, I'd take an Epsom salt bath using a full bag (4#) and a (1#) box of baking soda in a warm, not hot, tub for 25 minutes. Every night.

I would start playing music in our home or listen to it via a headset. In the Key of Healing is my personal favorite. I'd listen to Mozart too.

I would watch funny movies, read jokes - try to stay as mentally ``positive'' as possible.

I would pray and ask others to do so for me.

I would take loading doses of probiotics asap. Essential Formula's brand (costly, but seems to be the best). Five pills, one hour before meals with a full glass of water 2X/day for 6 days. I believe many of us who have a fondness for sugar, already don't have enough beneficial bacteria to absorb and make nutrients for us. At the end of the 6 days, I'd switch to another brand for a different ``variety'' and take maintenance doses.

Here are the supplements I would take:

A good daily multiple vit-mineral 2x/day. One without Ginkgo. Likely one from Metagenics.

Chorella, 5 pills per day, 2x/day.

CoQ10, 200mg 3x/day one with soybean oil in it.

Gluco Reg by Solar Ray 2x/day. This is chromium plus acids. With Mg low, I know this increases my RISK of developing diabetes.

Host Defense by New Chapter. Mushrooms. Bottle directions.

Alka Max by TriMedica, 1 capsule 2x/day.

Selenium, 200 mcg daily.

Essential enzymes with meals (to help conserve the nutrients needed to make antibodies).

Lecithin, 1 capsule from Carlson's with each meal.

Mg glycinate, 2 pills (=400mg) with a high potency B complex that also has Vitamin C in it at bedtime.

Mg citrate. 1 ml (dropperful = 52mg) under my tongue every 2 hours while awake. I'd be careful not to contaminate the bottle and would keep it in the fridge and get a new bottle every week. It's cheap.

I would likely use the trace minerals from Liquimins, using the dropper to put the liquid in the palm of my hand and apply it to my skin - legs or arms daily.

I would likely apply a silver dollar size of iodine to my skin...ONCE, carefully so as to not stain my clothes, countertop, etc.

Since dopamine is going to take a hit and serotonin is going to go up, I'd take the nutrients to correct this imbalance. L theanine seems to be one although it likely would be better to supplement all the amino acids for balance reasons.

For those of you who are into herbs, I might consider alfalfa and dandelion...geeze, I used to constantly battle those when we lived up north and now they are good for us?!

Since it takes time for antibodies to be made, enough healthy ones to show up on a WB test, I'd wait to have this test done for a few weeks and then I'd go thru Igenex for testing.

Based on the test results (the tick and the WB), I would then decide whether or not to continue this treatment plan, but I would NOT begin antibiotics.

If I had cancer, I would go a nutritional route also, but would consider/evaluate radiation therapy since it is highly targeted, but I would never do current chemotherapy. I don't believe making the entire body toxic...every cell...even those without cancer...is a good idea.

Yes, this is all very, very expensive out-of-pocket and life altering. This is a very fast, very toxic pathogen.

Once again, I am NOT a doctor or a nutritionist. I am merely stating how I would approach this. This is an alternative path that I would take.

How you chose to approach healing, which path you take, is YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE.

I believe a body in balance has no disease and to cure disease, we must get the body back in balance. This is no easy task! Always keep this in mind...the body does NOT heal quickly. This takes time.

P.S. edited to include latest info. on green tea...ancora imparo.

God - that's so important.

I've come to see myself, dealing with this illness in me and my two kids..

that this is key. I don't believe we can get well without this balance. Not easy to get back, but it is doable..and when you do you are healthier than you ever were before Lyme.

There is a magical, mystical power in our own bodies and cells that I believe science will never fully understand. My goal now is to reawaken that and care for it the rest of my life.

This piece that's missing from care is critical, and yet we have decades if not a generation probably to wait before MD's will be versed in how to accomplish this.

Thanks, Marnie..for sticking your neck outside the box and giving folks allot to think about.

My focus now is on repair, rebuild, immune strength, intestines, liver, kidneys has been INTENSE.
In part to battle remaining disease, and in large part to battle abx induced damage.

I'll never know where I would have been if I did something like this in the beginning...and I think once the disease was in full force, my son and I had to use heavy abx to get the load down.
This may be the case for many, but then folks should be aware and active in the 'balancing act' - ways to protect yourself from ab IMbalances.

Ab's served to cause further imbalances that I had no way to be concious of or on top of.

What would I do if I had a bite again -

well, I just had three. I'm enacting my own plan, and I'll see how it goes and report back.

I should say before the new bits working on all imbalances and strengthening immunity in me has been many months in the making, so far I am experiencing many changes that are notable.

abx has impaired my immune system (documented on tests)..

So..I essentially have done exactly what you are saying.

Except, different in using foods and herbs to get all the nutrients....no supplements, I'm getting it all in liquid form, and the enzymes from fresh pineapple outdoes anything you can buy.
I'm continuing liver flushing, hot nightly sweat baths, rebounding instead of walking.

I am in the sun eveyday, exposing all my skin, no sunscreen.

I've gone on a juice fast, lots of juices and only juices, this is day 18.
My food is my medicine.

I'm taking herbs including Cascara Sagrada, no laxative herbs..no psyllium, raw food is better.. to keep bowels moving, and if I don't go at least 2x a day on this fast, I will do a cool enema at night.

This is all focused on getting the body alkaline, and then going to a plan of eating
that will keep me alkaline..lots of raw, and proper food combining with any proteins. This must be forever.

I am introducing high quality sea salts with pure water. (both internal and bath)
for minerals.

As an aid / killing agent, I have high quality herbal exoracts that do not impair immunity.

I'll let ya'll know how it goes...but I have been at the cleansing/balancing for many months now..intestinal parasites and liver stones were a big problem, kidneys...and so things were already starting to 'flow' in the right direction before I got just got bit.

Interestingly, I was already on course in this direction when I got the bites (have a fabulous natural repellant, but it helps if you wear it ! duh!)
when I got them this time, I FELT them..each of them, the skin itched where the nymphal ticks were. When I first got sick, I never saw or felt the tick. Just musing here..but I wonder if it was my immune response this time that caused the itching. I performed a similar 'proceedure' to what you described for removal, but at home, with herbs.

I can say when I first got sick, I was just after pregnancy and not in balance, not eating to keep these organs clear and free..
so perhaps that did contribute..I believe it did. Then slapping 17000mg's of Amox on my system WITHOUT taking precautions for imbalances I think contributed more. If I only knew (not saying not to take the abx, I cannot confirm nor deny that at this time, I believe I needed them, just saying the IMBALANCES are a huge contributor to getting sicker)

This is a complete focus and life change, and takes effort...but doesn't really cost allot compared to all else.

I agree with everything you've said, except the emphasis on certain supps, and I don't know anything about Rife, that may be a good killing agent alternative (?)..I am trying to support my own cells to to the job..and I feel a FRESH juice fast is much better than not (so long as it's properly followed and the bowels are cared for to be MOVING), plus all other ideas you have added to it.

Can a newbie to the illness do this?????
I have my doubts, for it has taken years of my own research (greatly assisted by you) and my own family being 'smart bombed' by the disease with three very severe cases...
for me to come to the point of understanding this pathogen AND the functioning of my body internally to be at the point where I feel I can attempt what I consider a very advanced method of cure.

Yet, it's simple..but advanced in the requirement of dicipline, and application.
One would NEED to know it was ESSENTIAL to take all this very, very seriously to
succeed.

Because Bb comes with pathogens that are bio-engineered to evade even a functioning immune system..I believe some form of killing agant must be used.

Which one is the million dollar question, and abx's could work in certain cases ...with kids...and also many adults IF they worked on this other part vigilantly. It takes an educated and motivated dicipline that is not the norm in American society.

Certain herbs can do 'killing'..ones that do not kill good bacteria.
Teasel root may also be a fine choice..
and anti-parasitic herbs such as wormwood and black walnut hull are also very necessary IMO.

People cure Cancer this way...so there is definately value in learning and applying this no matter what stage in the game you are in.

Mo

Mo,are you still taking the coconut oil.Marnie posted an article about oils and how the coconut was the only one I believe that delivered an important ingredient in fighting cholesteral?Plus good nutrient.

Also,I want to eat but I am now in the stage where the sight of food is not appealing.Planning meals and shopping for food now is horrible for me.Any input here.

I guess my brain function has been disrupted,this has recently come about,so it is extremely hard to think diet,much less cook.

the same way.

For any disease.

The question being what to use as the 'killing agent'..perhaps in Lyme, syphillis and TB abx would be needed, but attention paid to all the rest is critical IMO.

That's the piece often missing. If the rest is in place, would we have less abrasive killing agents as options at certain points in the disease? I think so.

To my mind, Doc Klinghart is the closest to the mark holistically, and he uses ab's when necessary.

I've been with a wonderful LLMD who is from a clinical mindset, a tough enough job IMO, the rest is up to us personally. I had to take it upon myself to do the rest, but am convinced that in my ADULT, chronic case (kids can be diferent)..it has been esential to do at least as much, if not more work on my own system. Actually..more.

Mo

(ps: Lou..I took the fall with the nymph bites taking care of me baby blues ..
like an imbisil, I went into the field with no repellant, shorts, and Berkenstocks on.
Can't get more stupid than that..but those birds are sweet..)

Hippocrates, (whose Oath doctors and physicians worldwide still take to this day) in his time both PRACTICED and TAUGHT nutritional medicine. He lived between 5th century B.C. and the early 4th century B.C.

And In the city where Nostradamus studied medicine there is the Jardin des Plantes de Montpellier. This herb garden was created in 1593 under Henry IV to help students in medicine.

All the jobs the body must do to stay healthy are dependent on energy derived from food. If our food doesn't contain enough nutrients (vitamins, minerals, fiber, essential fatty acids, amino acids, etc.) then ALL physiologic systems will suffer.

When we continue to use dangerous pesticides on our plants, poison our water supplies and add antibiotics to animal feed,etc. we are going to continue to be/get sick. We may pass this damage to our children genetically.

Yes, I know we have a lot of mouths to feed, but the QUALITY of our foods and food choices has diminished greatly - nutrient wise. This impacts our resistance to disease.

It's an ongoing war...the little guys (microscopic pathogens) against the big guys (humans). They are winning because we aren't using our (combined) INTELLIGENCE and we haven't yet learned from history.

I like a lot of what you say in your plan. My money tree is dried up, though. Would you buy me a pool and a sauna?

Seriously, I think there is a lot to be said for taking alternative natural approaches to some diseases, although I would never tell anyone newly infected not to try antibiotics.

Never said someone should not take abx..

but do firmly believe you can NOT get well if you ignore all other elements of balance and wellness, and COULD get well much faster if you embrace them and make them a way of life..tho this will indeed take time.

No one sick should ever jump right into this..there must be a transition ..a careful one..maybe by changing one meal a day, then two..forst focusing on clearing the bowels..then on from there.
Everyone will have different issues and needs, I can only say what mine were.

I had an enourmous intestinal parasite problem after the ab's and the long term illness and yeast.

Also..I have no pool or sauna..but am doing the job with dilligence in nightly herbal sweat baths, and ice cold sitz baths..and a little rebounder I dusted off from long ago.

My food has been lots of raw, and plan to add back a little fish and chicken later.

Also, 20 almonds a day gives us all the protein we need when cleansing (plus has Mg)..

I believe there are ways to accomplish the balancing, cleansing, clearing with proper use of raw foods, which are not expensive, but a little time consuming in cleaning and prep.

A liver flush costs about 2 bucks. Prep before and after is getting bowels moving well..which can also be accomplished with food.

It's empowering to recognize the bodies abilities and support and repair them to assist you in fighting the disease.

I feel allot of relief in learning it is not as complicated as I once thought, but you have to do the work.

I should say I'm coming from a place where I was significantly ill with neuro symptoms, and have been treated with extensive ab's and other for two plus years. Got better, but not well. believe I did lower bacterial load, but that was not all I needed to do.

Just sharing some of which I wish I knew before, along the way..
but when I was so sick..I could not implement or understand much of anything.
I feel now in retrospect that I was at fault for ignoring what many consider 'alternative' considerations - and that was to great detriment in my case...
there has to be a marriage IMO.

This is a rough disease.

Mo

I think I first had Lyme 20 yrs ago. None of the doctors (12) could even give me a diagnosis. I became a "health freak": macrobiotic diet, daily hour long walks, supplements, amalgams replaced by gold, homeopathy, sunshine- took perfect care of myself.

I got it in remission (took 2 yrs) but it never left me. Knees would hurt now and then and I tired easily.

Caring for and nursing an infant set me back but I pulled thru. Amazingly, my child's WB has only IgG 41. Early menopause at 45 (Lyme?) set me back bad but bio-identical transdermal HRT helped. Never would have made it without my estradiol patch. Slowly going down.

Who knows how many times I've been bit? Those daily walks were thru the woods. I didn't know the danger. As Dr B says- one bite too many.

Oct 03, thrown from a horse, horrific wrist fracture-2 repair surgeries, nerve damage. All down since then, got Babesia August 04, things really went downhill.

So, it worked for me, sorta. If I could do it again I'd run for the rocephin. A healthy body can easily defeat many of the lesser pathogens. Lyme is not one of them, IMO.

Ebola will kill you in a few days no matter how healthy one is. Too bad Lyme's not so kind.

Just exchanging ideas, nothing personal.

[This message has been edited by janet thomas (edited 26 June 2005).]

So, don't think I can buy into this natural therapy for all illness business. It really bugs me when the media say that lifestyle and genetics are responsible for more illnesses. This is bunk and just a way of blaming the patients. Most cancer, in my opinion, is environmental, or environmentally triggered, which comes down to the same thing as far as prevention is concerned.

Sorry, Marnie, I think taking Mg is important, and it is good to be reminded every now and then. Am with you on Mg.But this treatment plan described abovbe isn't what I would do myself, nor would I try it on a child. If an adult wishes to take these risks, that is their choice. Would not recommend it to people.

Furthermore, it does not apply to a lot of people here because many did not see the tick, or didn't know we were bitten. Mostly late catches in other words.

I have wondered about alternative treatments for cancer, because the conventional ones are expensive, painful, and futile in certain kinds of cancer. If the survival rates are lousy with treatment, why not try something else? At least, that is the way it looks to me. This again is not something that should be recommended to another person, but something that you arrive at after researching the options, a choice you make yourself.

It really makes me mad when Bryan suggests rife to newbies, in place of antibiotics. He did this with a parent who came looking for advice for a child's case. This is irresponsible and I think it is indeed medical advice. At least those people know his real name and location so they can sue when their child is disabled or dies because of lack of appropriate treatment. Sorry, this really makes me hot under the collar.

My (serious) question is though - WERE THEY CURED? Did they usually come out alive, or not?

In an adult, to go after it this way should only be undertaken in an extremely aggressive, consistant manner..
and, yes, a persoanl decision. I don't know it could be tackled without a Herculean kind of focus.

And, as I stated above, I believe it's a different ballgame when the disease has a foothold.

However, the point of my posts, and in my experience, being on abx for years and with aggressive, knowledgeable LLMD care continuing..

I truly am convinced one cannot get well on abx without taking all these measures to clear diseased organs and keep things flowing in the right direction and cells nourished.

I'm not saying 'alternative' (I almost wish it wasn't called that) measures cure all.

I'm saying these measures, I have found for me, are critical to cure in any case. Absolutely critical, and allot of what I had continuing on in symptoms after my head cleared could well have been misfunctioning organs and circulating toxins.

These organs are essential to healthy bodies and effect the whole system right down to platelet production, macrophages, and of course, cell detox.

I would think in treating with abx it's even more important to ramp this up. Stuff needs a way out.

And there are bodily mechanisms that can assist, and assist well..that I believe we need and years of abx can cripple, they did for me.

Is it alternative..or is it basic?

..it has taken a Hurculean effort for many months for me to gain notable reversal of damage.

Point is, really, that these approaches must be married IMO, and in that case I think use of less abx and perhaps some herbal alternatives could be achieved..

But there are lots of complications and I didn't mean it to sound that simple.

I was reserved in sharing this here because of the whole war that erupts over clinical and alternative care,
but at the same time as a long term sufferer under purely clinical treatments with the standard Doc B reccomended supps and actigall with my Rocephin.. I felt I had to share what I have come to realize was a huge missing piece in my treatment, and to encourage others to consider, perhaps learn, and apply it along the way as is appropriate, and to ramp it up when reducing abx.

I went off just the IV last summer and have not relapsed neurologically. I think all this work has something to do with that..seems to me.

Mo

We still have a tb sanitarium here. It was turned into the local health department.

It is a compound with a wall in it and houses inside the walls. The Dr.'s would live in the houses and the patients would be in the hospital. These houses are now used as offices.

I almost think it should be reopened where I live. We have constant outbrakes of TB here since immigration no longer requires testing for this illness.

In my opinion, I don't care if Bryan gives one cent back to lyme research. His book has made many aware of an alternative treatment that WORKS. BTW...do you know all that Bryan went thru before he learned about Rife therapy?

This is a devastating disease physically, emotionally, mentally and financially too.

Lou, you said, "It really bugs me when the media say that lifestyle and genetics are responsible for more illnesses. This is bunk and just a way of blaming the patients. Most cancer, in my opinion, is environmental, or environmentally triggered, which comes down to the same thing as far as prevention is concerned."

If cancer is environmentally triggered why do we not ALL have cancer? What keeps most people cancer free?

Our lifestyles including our food choices, lack of exercise, etc. do greatly affect our ability to stay healthy and fight pathogens and diseases. It is not "bunk". If someone drinks a lot of alcohol and gets cirrhosis of the liver, guess what...it was THEIR fault.

Once again, Bryan's book is intended to make people AWARE that other choices to treat this disease EXIST. And there ARE persons who have gotten well using this treatment.

More and more new devices are being developed to "cure" problems using frequencies. My husband just had the bottom of his foot blasted with frequencies to treat plantar fascitis (sp?) by a MD podiatrist who is on top of the latest treatments. And frequencies are being used to potentiate cancer treatments in cancer facilities.

What is wrong with educating people about alternative paths so they can make their own choice?

If the medical route was capable of curing every disease all the time, then I would certainly promote that route. But the truth is...traditional medicine often fails and in some instances makes a bad situation worse. One medicine leads to another (often due to side effect), leads to another...on and on.

Many medical schools are now adding nutrition classes for doctors-in-training, IMO... thank goodness.

Janet, Lyme disease depletes Mg. ALL the symptoms are Mg deficiency symptoms which I have linked one by one in my Long Overdue posts. Until that level is restored, the symptoms continue. This takes a LONG time...because we are talking about repairing the powerhouses of the cells once the infection has been eliminated by our OWN immune system.

Pregnancy and nursing also lower the Mg&Ca amt. in your body. Women "give" these nutrients (and others) to developing fetuses.

When we are injured, we need a LOT of nutrients to heal. The nutrient demands go way up.

Repeated infections are very, very nutritionally depleting. It takes a long time to recover with a massive effort.

Prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I suspect you both believe my post is also "irresponsible" despite the tremendous medical research I have done nonstop for 4 years to DOCUMENT this from very reputable medical research websites.

My Updated Nutshell post, which obviously you have chosen not to read, represents countless hours

* to bring new lyme patients up to speed as quickly as possible as to what this pathogen does to the body.

Bryan and I are trying to HELP save lives by sharing knowledge that we have acquired thru extensive research when abx. FAILED.

I do think it is irresponsible to suggest that "natural" methods can hold off all the germs. What you said initially is that your plan was for people just bitten. This last post says it is for those who have been failed by abx. So, this is confusing.

People have a right to try anything they want to; they have to live with the consequences. What I have a problem with is recommending these alternatives to others as being as good as or better than traditional methods.

This is my last post on this thread. Not looking for controversy, just trying to balance this view for newbies.

I have come to feel that it takes increased care of organ health to process the added chemicals, ect..and that they also make it harder to fight pathogens on and off abx.

All this stuff is processed and filtered by the liver, GB, intestines. They get overloaded.

I also feel it is essential in todays world for prevention, in light of all our bodies have to fight, to keep them clear.

All angles and perspectives necessary.

I have no experience with Rife, and the other I write about is difficult to express in an easily applicable way patient to patient..just sharing perspective and that effort on system function maintainance/repair seems critical to achieve wellness even with abx tx.
Especially with abx tx, and abx destroyed my son's IgM (initial immune response) Immunoglobulin.

Anyway - the balance in perspective is important..and I think Marnie may take a bit of offence to the posts that infer "irresponsibility", when clearly she works tirelessly to understand this disease.

It's so vastly complicated it takes all opinions and experiences to find a path for oneself.

We can't rely on abx only..it's too complicated.

Mo

Some have wondered what I would do, if I contracted lyme disease.

People can make their own choices from the outset.

When abx. seemed to fail my sister and she continued to have multiple of problems spiraling down, I wanted to know WHY this was happening.

What I discovered is this: current abx. therapies make this situation worse, not better. Tetracycline alters the immune system response, depletes the very minerals we need to make healthy antibodies specifically to lyme and destroys the very, very important beneficial bacteria in our intestines which help us to absorb nutrients and make many critical nutrients for us. This is all medically documented. This is disasterous.

In my opinion we need to support our own immune system to highly target this pathogen.

So...I would NOT go on antibiotics whether I got this disease early or found out I had it months, years, later.

The "side effects" of the antibiotic class that most likely would help (aminoglycosides) are horrendous. These are really rough abxs. Vancomycin killed my father, not an infection. It put him in toxic hepatitis and DESTROYED his one remaining kidney within HOURS.

Some on this board have chosen to use a statin drug to stop this pathogen by blocking the formation of cholesterol. Yes, it could possibly work, but there are downsides (esp. CoQ10 issues). Magnesium can do the same, safer, and this mineral also controls the glycolysis route too.

I am interested in chosing the SAFEST route.

If a group of lyme patients are trying a new treatment, I look at the risks involved. In the case of ICHT (the drug used was in a class with cyanide), I even e-mailed and heard back from the man who was using it to warn him. He is a fugitive of justice now. He killed a young doctor with this treatment. It caused a serious electrolyte imbalance. I knew this was a strong possibility. I tried to warn people.

I am currently cautious about Na-Vitamin C therapy, but optimistic (there are many reasons why this MIGHT work). Forgive me, but when it comes to someone's LIFE, I chose to err on the side of caution until I have more FACTS.

I see both my diet and stress level were out of balance. I think almost all of us can assume we are out of whack. The varieties of food, even organic ones are not the same old varieties that grandma and grandpa grew.

My lifestyle is mostly stress free, I sent my daughter to college! Tuition is much better than having her home.

I do the best I can in the food area. It was VERY hard when I was tired and hurt all the time. I'm over the hump now and can exercise and be active without paying too heavily later. Getting into balance is a process. I try to do the best I can every day. I am gradually getting well.

Thanks Marnie-

Great suggestions!

What device was used on your husband for platar fasciitis? I think I have this.

Also, would you consider doing IV magnesium instead of the oral you mentioned as a better treatment, equal or not as good? I'm only assuming via IV gets to where we need it quicker/more effectively but I may be wrong. I do know we have to go slow in either case.

I do believe that you have a big heart--and have the best wishes for everyones' health here on Lymenet

And you should be commended on the amount of tireless research that you do.......Big hugs to you.

But not using ABX early in treatment is not sound advice

For every chronic lyme patient--I meet two more that beat the disease--and are well yrs later( are they "cured", heavens no!!, are you ever "cured" of the coxsackie 6 viruses??, no--the immune system just retains the infection in latentecy in the spinal column) So I do not use the word, *cured*.

I don't believe that you can ever rid the body completely of spirochetes--just get the load down to a dull roar.

My next door neighbor--she's 64 and got lyme while golfing--and it took the doctors awhile to catch it( about six months) and she had the disease under control with six months' oral ABX--yes, she was very healthy prior to infection--wonderful diet, execrise, goood supplementation. It has been 7 yrs--and several stressful events later.......and she is still well.

Her " Identical Twin Sister" contacted the disease---and due to her sisters' ranting and raging--went into the LLMD's office---and recieved prompt treatment--and would you believe--it took the twin FIVE YRS, many combo's of ABX, to get her lyme under control--and she still has quite a way to go.

Both vegans--both golfers, both execrise regularly, both use life extension supplements.

Notice that I mentioned *Identical Twins*

Twin # 1--who was in remission within six months of ABX---did some research of her own--since her sister was still suffering

She came over and showed me what she had discovered( and this women had NO medical background)

She had found out--thru researching other infectious pathogens, such as TB, and TP---that Leprosy had a genetic trigger

Yep, it's indeed infectious and contagious--but only to those who have the genetic tendencies

If you doubt me--do the research--and you will find that it's the truth

So, could this be a case of enviromentals(leprosy is said to be a soil pathogen ) triggering genetics??

In Leprosy--that's the case.

If it's the case with one pathogen--it maybe the case with others--we don't know this at this time--but it is a possiable theorim.

Big FYI here..............

You mentioned that your sister who has TBD's has/is being treated with Humira??

Before I rant here...may I ask why, who( as in type of doctor--sounds like a rhemie to me)placed her on this treatment??

Humira is a TNF blocker--and is pretty darn immuno-supressive!

Side effects ( though not as rare as they would have you believe on the packaging )are serious, prolonged infections, and lymphoma.

Not what you want when you are already fighting one very nasty infection--borrelia and company.

The usual round with the rhemies, is hydroxychloroquine first(Plaquenil--which can slightly supress IgG production)

Then if no response---Methotrexate( Rheumtrex) which is also used in Chemotherapy treatments--in a different dosage( of course!)

If no response to the rheumatrex--on to TNF blockers-- such as Ebrel, Humria--ect. Patients who also refuse to "stop cocktailing"--also have to use TNF blockers.

I am worried about the fact that your sister was/is on this drug---has anyone done an immune status panel to see how she is fairing on the drug????

Methotrexate is known to cause supression of IgG antibody production, amoungts other things----and most rhemies' really don't know this little known fact!!!!!

And, as you well know--you need all the antibodies that you can produce to fight borrelia.

Please reply to me on this--as I am curious, and concerned.

I said what I would do.

Whether or not persons reading want to try this route is their choice.

Once again, Bryan and I are simply showing you alternative paths exist and they have helped many.

Teachability involves wanting to learn and wanting to change. I understand the difficulty wanting to change, but I have a hard time understanding why persons don't want to learn in order to make educated decisions about their own health.

Yes, a rheu. MD put her on this...and other "side effects" of Humira are TB and cancer.

Yes, I'm upset and scared for her.

But...see a post of mine today and you will understand. When you do, just write "got it!"

When this disease hits...at the time of the rash (early on)...the Mg level drops DRAMATICALLY. "significantly" as the Romanian cancer doctors put it.

The drug of choice (in the Tetracycline class) also depletes this mineral and others.

It takes adequate Mg and Ca to make healthy antibodies...these are IMMUNOGLOBULINS.

Pubmed: restoring the DAMAGED Fab portion of the antibody specific to killing Bb took providing additional Mg and Ca! I have documented this.

They are using the wrong drug...the cheapest one, an old one, that is NOT effective for THIS very resistant pathogen, IMO. The aminoglycosides are the ones needed OR there are much cheaper, safer routes to go to accomplish the same...to eliminate THIS pathogen.

Why do you think we are now using a Mg peroxide solution to soak "uniforms" in? It works...kills all, I repeat, all, pathogens. This info. is on a gov. website and others.

I don't understand your comments about identical twins.

Are you wondering if some pathogens/environmental factors can trigger genetic predispositions or even cause genetic damage (after birth)?

I don't know, but I do know that in the case with Down's syndrome (genetic damage BEFORE birth) these kids can make remarkable improvements with massive nutrition. Does nutrition correct this genetic damage? No. (Article in April issue of Alternative Medicine, I think.)

Looks like we're (presently) stuck with the genes we got, but...if we know what a particular gene is doing or isn't doing, we might be able to "work around" that defect to a degree.

Can pathogens do RNA/DNA damage? Oh, yea. esp. in the mitochondria...the powerhouses of the cells.

Can pathogens trigger a predisposition in an effective gene?

I wouldn't think so...can we suddenly go from say, red hair to black hair? Or suddenly grow to 9 feet tall after being exposed to a pathogen? It doesn't appear to be the case.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marnie:
Brent, silver makes me "a little bit jumpy".

Back in 1967 I SAW a woman in Evanston Hospital whose skin was permanently grey due to silver poisoning.

---

You must have added/changed the original post since I looked in earlier today---since this one seems longer to me

I'm not a great typer...so if you don't mind, I'm going to add things with My intials(YIB) after your responses to my comments

By Marnie:
I am NOT "advising" anyone on what they should do!

I said what I would do.

Whether or not persons reading want to try this route is their choice.

Once again, Bryan and I are simply showing you alternative paths exist and they have helped many.

Teachability involves wanting to learn and wanting to change. I understand the difficulty wanting to change, but I have a hard time understanding why persons don't want to learn in order to make educated decisions about their own health.

YIB: I opened my original post to you by thanking you for all your hard work--I'm just stating my beliefs( which I'm allowed to have, Too!)--that early in the disease--treatment with ABX is a very wise choice!!

I've had a "bit" of education in my lifetime--but no one seems to have a Ph.D in TBD's--so we all need to keep an open mind

If you have been on them for quite awhile( ABX)--with no success---then I can't blame folks for looking into other avenues--just be careful to check out all the pro's and con's.

By Marnie:
Yes, a rheu. MD put her on this...and other "side effects" of Humira are TB and cancer.

Yes, I'm upset and scared for her.

YIB: Has this rhemie looked into any other treatment possiabilies for her?? Other types of immune modulators??

I am not trying to match wits with you, only trying to be helpful where I can.

By Marnie:
But...see a post of mine today and you will understand. When you do, just write "got it!"

YIB: The post about Lawyers?? I am aware that many feel that less expensive treatments are being shoved aside by big pharma due to profitability--and there is plenty of truth to that, but it's just one piece of the pie

By Marnie:
When this disease hits...at the time of the rash (early on)...the Mg level drops DRAMATICALLY. "significantly" as the Romanian cancer doctors put it.

YIB: I know that you have researched Mg extensively--some of which I agree with, some of which I don't

But that's what makes the reseach world go around--and we would never get anywhere--with any disease--if we all agreed, all of the time.

Marnie:The drug of choice (in the Tetracycline class) also depletes this mineral and others.

YIB: Alot of drugs deplete vitamins and minerals

The Drug Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook, By Ross Pelton, RPh, Ph.D is a handy reference manual with regard to this topic.

Marnie:It takes adequate Mg and Ca to make healthy antibodies...these are IMMUNOGLOBULINS.

YIB: It takes more than just Mg and Ca--at least that's what I was taught in school--and I'm going to ask for my money back if my education wasn't correct!( I am joking here)

I know antibodies are Immunoglobulins--I had better--since I dispense IVIG--that's why you see me adding to posters thread that discuss the treatment--I "have" to use the treatment---and I also work first hand with it.

But my comments are only in the personal sense--not professional---As you know--that's not wise on any public forum.

Marnie:Pubmed: restoring the DAMAGED Fab portion of the antibody specific to killing Bb took providing additional Mg and Ca! I have documented this.

They are using the wrong drug...the cheapest one, an old one, that is NOT effective for THIS very resistant pathogen, IMO. The aminoglycosides are the ones needed OR there are much cheaper, safer routes to go to accomplish the same...to eliminate THIS pathogen.

Why do you think we are now using a Mg peroxide solution to soak "uniforms" in? It works...kills all, I repeat, all, pathogens. This info. is on a gov. website and others.

YIB: Killing pathogens on uniforms seems somewhat different than killing those same pathogens once inside the human body

B.B really does kick the bucket when hit with doxy in a petrie dish--but in the body?? We have seen otherwise

Marnie:I don't understand your comments about identical twins.

YIB: Just simply pointing out all the viables that can contribute to this disease state--used the twins since they would qualify as being about as "similiar" as any two people can be--with response to genetics

Many borrelia researchers have noted long histories of sickness in families with multiple lyme sufferers ( Harvey,) and wondered about the disease being easily transmited from one patient to another, or familiar lines being more suspectable to this pathogen

Dr. K, the LLMD neuro in CT--has proven certain genotypes have predispositions towards chronic borrelia--even auto-immune type sequels due to the body recconizing the outer surface protein of certain strains of borrelia as foreign-- this outer surface protein is comparable to the mylein sheath protein--and the immune system may indeed mount an attack against its' own tissues--believing that they are the foreign borrelia.

The infection is still active at this time, so the immune response is aimed at both the foreign borrelia, and the mylien protein that so closely resembles the outer surface protein of the borrelia( both are happening at the same time--immune system is unable to rcconize "self", from the active, ongoing infection)

Article about topic:
*Evidence of Borrelia autoimmunity induced component of Lyme Carditis and arthritis*

Notice that it said "component", not that all borrelia CNS syptoms are "autoimmunity"

PMID 15695691

Finally opening their eyes--even if it is only a "peek"

I tried posting the link--and it would not post.

He( DR. K) also believes that certain genotypes are more prone to the arithitic type sequel.

Marnie: Are you wondering if some pathogens/environmental factors can trigger genetic predispositions or even cause genetic damage (after birth)?

YIB: I'm not wondering--there's more than sufficent evidence to prove the above statement( this is not a sarcastic comment, but the sad, unfortunite truth)--but there are many variables within each indivuial case documented in research studies.

But that would be one lonnnggg post

Latest contraversy regarding somatic mutations( aquired during the lifetime):
Mercury in childhood vaccinations and autism

Marnie: I don't know, but I do know that in the case with Down's syndrome (genetic damage BEFORE birth) these kids can make remarkable improvements with massive nutrition. Does nutrition correct this genetic damage? No. (Article in April issue of Alternative Medicine, I think.)

YIB: I wouldn't doubt it at all!!! But it will not completely correct the situation--as you said above. ( Sad that it doesn't)

Looks like we're (presently) stuck with the genes we got, but...if we know what a particular gene is doing or isn't doing, we might be able to "work around" that defect to a degree.

YIB: That's exactly why I jump in on some of these sort of threads--( I'm chronic lymer since 1997, CDC positives the whole time) and my genetics have been quite "telling" for me

Original LLMD who discovered that my immune staus was "sub-par" to say the least--just wrote it off as borrelia causing the immuno-supression--and stated that correct treatment would correct the faulty immune response

I won't go into the treatments that I have gone thru--but the Hamptons boss was contacted by me---after this serious immune supression was discovered.

While waiting for my appt with the lyme guru--I went ahead, and had immunilogy run the genetics---point mutations on the short leg of one of my X chromosomes--which confered the diagnosis of a Genetic immune deficiency--and you just can't fight the point mutations

Did the borrelia cause this( NO)---did my mothers' exposure to German measules while pregnant with me cause this( Most likely, yes)

Hamptons boss agrees--that in my case the borrelia triggered genetics that were latent prior to borrelia--and I have a thick medical file to prove it.

If you want more information--I would take this off-line, since I do like my privacy

I am an isolated statistic? Maybe?? We may never know---since there isn't any real research into this subject matter( B.B and genetic mutations)

Marnie: Can pathogens do RNA/DNA damage? Oh, yea. esp. in the mitochondria...the powerhouses of the cells.

Can pathogens trigger a predisposition in an effective gene?

I wouldn't think so...can we suddenly go from say, red hair to black hair? Or suddenly grow to 9 feet tall after being exposed to a pathogen? It doesn't appear to be the case.

YIB: Well, if pathogens could change your hair color, L'oreal would be out of business............ 9 ft tall maybe a bit mal-adaptive for most humans, so thank god they don't cause that problem.

Can they cause somatic mutations( aquired during the human life time)

Well, I gotta tell you--there has been PLENTY of research into pathogens and cancer--and cancer is one, big somatic mutation!!

Chemical exposures and cancer( well known)

Genetic mutations and cancer;

A prime example: Women who have inherited a mutation in the gene--often called the braca gene, are now known to be at high risk for developing breast cancer

Some women with this gene will get cancer, some will not( with one copy of the gene) and studies are currently underway to try to understand why this mutation is triggered in some women

and not in others--Do you "think" that enviromental factors( Pathogens, chemical exposures, ect.), and lifestyle choices( diet, excerise, sleep hygiene, ect.) could contribute to the likely hood of developing cancer??

Those with two copies of the gene-- will usually will undergo genetic consulting to review their options--since their risk is quite high.

Most people don't want to know--unless there is a familiar predispostion in the family( too many hormonal cancers, as one example)

[

[

I just read what you posted earlier-

I suspect you both believe my post is also "irresponsible" despite the tremendous medical research I have done nonstop for 4 years to DOCUMENT this from very reputable medical research websites.

My Updated Nutshell post, which obviously you have chosen not to read, represents countless hours

* to bring new lyme patients up to speed as quickly as possible as to what this pathogen does to the body.

Bryan and I are trying to HELP save lives by sharing knowledge that we have acquired thru extensive research when abx. FAILED.

PLEASE-I never thought your valuable posts are irresponsible-never

I so much appreciate all the information.

And I hope Byran makes money on his book-so much work and $ to publish that book.

Nutshell info-haven't read it all but now am not up to it, will when able.

Janet

I do appreciate being reminded about mg. Just recently have developed a cramp alarm clock. Even sustained release doesn't get me completely thru the night. Don't know why mg depletion now worse than in the past when even MgO worked.

I stick with my opinion that missing the early opportunity to knock lyme on the head is dangerous. That is pretty much what I did, but not intentionally. Now, here I am with a chronic case and a ruined life.

If you are interested in cancer causation, read Samuel Epstein's book "The Politics of Cancer."

I would do Rife.

I would highly target Bb using frequencies (a negative charge) rather than taking abx. (which also make the ENTIRE system acidic...neg. charge), But I would COUNTER the negative charges of Rife and the negative charges (toxins released from the destruction of the cell walls) with positive charged minerals, esp. Mg.

Additionally, I would pay close attention to nutrition as well as other life-style choices (exercise more), etc.

My sister is aware of my research and we speak often. She is trying to listen and follow "advice" from both sides.

I don't believe the body is making a wrong choice...TNF alpha is greatly increased for many reasons. They are listed in my Updated Nutshell post. I don't think we should change this immune pathway (and abx. do this - documented). We do need to get this pro inflammatory cytokine down for comfort reasons, for sure (!), but to block it or otherwise alter the TH1 pathway...