I've gotten the impression that there are a lot of late-stage lyme disease people that don't get better or get better and relapse even after very long courses on antibiotics, & treated by doctors whom are knowledgeable of coinfections.

It seems to me, that if you make the assumptions that the person was: properly diagnosed, their treatment protocol adequately addressed all of their major coinfections in addition to addressing the lyme, the cystic form of lyme, that no infections become resistant to all of the antibiotics used in treating it (which seems a safe enough bet considering the potency, and large # of antibiotics typically used)...

...then there are at least four reasons I can think of explaining why a person could have a complete or near-complete improvement and then relapse weeks to months later:

* incomplete eradication of the borrelia &/or coinfections
* reacquisition of lyme or a principle coinfection shortly following, or near the end of antibiotic treatment
* untreated chronic viral illness
* suppression of inflammation by antibiotics which returns upon discontinuation.

If indeed people who relapse sometimes do so months later (I think this is true?) then it seem unlikely their prior improvement had been due to some of the anti-inflammatory effects of some antibiotics, (you would expect the relapse to be quicker). Therefore, if those are the only four possible ways then it would have to be one of the first three.

From what I've read, many people seem to assume that it is the first, and some people the third, but it seems that considering the fact that non-tick and even non-vector-borne modes of transmission haven't been disproven and some studies show contact transmission in animals (though others do not) and viable spirocytes in urine in animals, & that Lida Mattman claims to have found them in tears, that it is possible that direct transmission via contact or droplets, leads to patient being repeatedly exposed to more of the bacteria.

Also considering that true (i.e. once you factor in the inaccuracy of the tests) incidence of past or current Bb infection in the U.S. probably lies somewhere between 1%-20%, if it is at the higher end of that range it certainly argues for an alternate form of transmission whether contact or a different vector.

Even if contact transmission is not possible for Borrelia in us, perhaps one of the coinfections is capable of relatively easy & frequent person to person or person-to vector-to person transmission, as this seems to have been studied even less.

Obviously if there is an alternative form of transmission that is person-person or which basically amounts to that, and is not sexual, i'd think that ought to be of great importance to know as it seems a very viable way to explain how people could recover and later relapse from the disease.

Since I'm sure A Lot of people have thought about this before me, i thought it might be a good idea to devout a thread to scientific research on alternate forms of transmission of Bb & coinfections, statements by experts, and people's viewpoints & arguments for or against alternative transmission mechanisms.

Hope this is useful, & people contribute, enjoy!

john

Now that is a thread I would be reading!

The quote at the end of your post is a quote to live by.

Then there is the whole matter of syphilis strains, some of which are transmissible in saliva.

Finally what of the encapsulated form of Bb. It has been shown that they go into protected form even in pure water, this would imply that they would go into protected form in number of non-serous fluids. How long can they last in that state? do thermal excursions kill them, UV light is know to kill BB as well as in vitro elevated temperature so they in thoery could not last too long outside of the body.

( there is an interesting side story here regarding high temperature therapy. Horses get Lyme yet horses can have fevers that are above the temperature that is supposed to kill Lyme, yet after a very high fever (in human terms) the BB is still alive and kicking... some thing does not add up here)

So what does all this mean... I don;t know for sure but it is a good starting point for discussions. It is refreshing to see something other than a bunch of arguments that are appearing in the BBS as of late. Hopefully this thread will continue.

Some syphilus strains are transmitted by saliva? (Are you sure about that?) Now there's a scary thought if it applies to Bb.

My vet expressed a thought he had- that Bb may also be a water borne pathogen.

Letospira does live int he water that has been contaminated by urine...I don;t know if it goes into protected form though.

quote:

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Originally posted by sunnyslumber:
Hi everyone,

It seems to me, that if you make the assumptions that the person was: properly diagnosed, their treatment protocol adequately addressed all of their major coinfections in addition to addressing the lyme, the cystic form of lyme, that no infections become resistant to all of the antibiotics used in treating it (which seems a safe enough bet considering the potency, and large # of antibiotics typically used)...

john

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Great post.

Bb has slow division,reflux pumps, cyst formations and god knows what else. It's a matter of when (not if) Bb becomes resistant to traditional abx. MRSA and VRE are already there. I'd say 5-10 years and traditional abx will no longer work.

This is particulalry true in the developing world, where people cannot afford abx. Mnay time a pharmacist will rip a pack of 2 to 3 tabs of an ABX and give it to one of the poor people that come in to the store. It helps the poor people get over the problem but make the bug stronger.

My theory is that too litte abx is causing the problems, not too much.

That being said a friend of mine woke me up to the fact that the last 50 years has been the golden age of the abx, with pharm companes making big big $$ on it. Those days will end, to a large degree as a result of bug resistance. I think the companies see it and thats one of the reasons they are working on all sorts of new things, many of which are "vanity" drugs, like something to make your hair come back (like it makes a difference) etc. What will replace abx? maybe synthetic antibodies or viral bullets.. who knows. All I know is that for me is that ABX are working so far so I will stick with it until the end or until I don't need them any more, which ever comes first.

'Lyme disease': ancient engine of an unrecognized borreliosis pandemic?
by Dr Harvey

In it Dr Harvey PROVES that millions of us carry and transmit borreliosis both vertically and horizontaly. It appears Bb is similar to strep and staph in that by natural selection strains are produced that allow for the host to live. ie "normal flora"

This is of course not the same virulent strain carried by ticks.(ie Lyme, which is a zoonotic disease)
the same concept applies to other bacteria such as strep where virulent "flesh eating" strains are found in the outside environment.

So do we pass the virulent Bb strains the same as the "normal flora" strains. I'm sure of it.