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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Anyone with Lyme had their wisdom teeth extracted?

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Author Topic: Anyone with Lyme had their wisdom teeth extracted?
ticktox
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My daughter is off to college in a month and her dentist is suggesting she get her wisdom teeth extracted before she goes. She has had very debilitating neuro-Lyme for five years and is lucky even to be contemplating college. Knowing how this bug has a way of complicating any procedure, we are unsure about her doing the wisdom teeth now. She doesn't want to backtrack just before school starts. Anyone have any experience with wisdom teeth and Lyme?
Posts: 57 | From CT | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mlkeen
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My son had his wisdon teeth out in February. He has been on abx, tetra, for two years. He has had lyme since 2000. He was affected by the extraction, but not as badly as early herxs. He was unable to do school work effectively for a week or so. He was just out of it, if you know what I mean. The oral surgeon keep him on the same abx as the llmd, stating that he didn't want to change what was working.

My son bounced back well after the first week. No problem with the extraction.

I think it is wonderful that you daughter is able to go to college. Is she going full time, living away? My son still has two years of high school. I look at him and say no way he could manage, but alot can happen in two years.

Mel


Posts: 1572 | From Pa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GiGi
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This is written by the fellow who cleaned out my messy wisdom teeth sites, and a lot more. I am healthy again today.

W I S D O M T E E T H or Teeth of Misfortune (Third Molars)

Facial Pain Linked To Infections
by Christopher J. Hussar, D.D.S., D.O.

For almost a century controversy has waged regarding the existence of a disease process with infectious origins within the dental alveolus. These localized infectious processes have been strongly implicated in generating facial pain including trigeminal neuralgia along with other cranial facial pain disorders including, remote pain disorders in distant regions of the body.
The Father of modem dentistry, G. V. Black, recognized and gave notice in one of his textbooks to the actuality of a hollow jaw bone, housing an infectious process within the dental alveolus.

A review of the literature reveals numerous papers from the early 20th century written by both M.D. and D.D.S. alike, describing the surgical debridement of jaw infections including devital teeth, and localized osteomyelitis lesions that successfully treated, not only localized facial pain, but remote pain disorders such as arthritis as well.

Sir Wilfred Harris, a British neurosurgeon, proposed the reality of a chronic intra osseous infection within the alveolus causing neural degenerative changes and demyelination to trigeminal nerve branches. This was in 1926 and was widely accepted by dental surgeons in America nearly a century prior.

In the early part of this century the theory of "focal disease" arose in which a chronically infected area of the body was responsible for causing pathology elsewhere. Many tonsils as well as teeth were removed with miraculous, as well as not so miraculous, results. The clinician would script an article expounding the cure of arthritis after the patient had several diseased teeth removed. Anecdotal cases of blindness reversal was documented (your author has witnessed such an event)...

Much credit must be attributed to the brilliant research of Dr. Weston Price in the early part of our century. With incredibly reproducible results, this research dentist demonstrated the existence of multiple bacterial strains in dental teeth including root canals.

In addition, he addressed the chronically infected periodontal membrane and periodicular bone resulting from infected teeth and the cavitation of such chronically infected bone if thorough socket curettabe was not performed properly.

With the ``disproving'' of the focal theory by our progressively autocratic medical/dental complex, the concept of chronic dental/alveolar infections has gone practically unrecognized for the past sixty years.

One of the reasons may be poor visuatlization of these chronically ``cavitated'' lesions on intra-oral radiographs. Usually housed within the cancellous bone, the cortical plates and their different x-ray absorption qualities obscure and alter the true picture lying deep within the jaw bone.

In reality, this is not the case as certain radiographic landmarks are quiate visible and will readily confirm the presence of these lesions. With continued x-ray evaluation along with curettage of a suspected lesion, they will become obvious.
The above mentioned as been well documented by Jerry Bouquot, D.D.S., M.S.D., in his numerous articles on NICO (Neuralgia Industing Cavitational Osteonecrosis) lesions describing ``laminar rain,'' the x-ray visible, boney changes resemblung the rungs of a ladder. This results when the bone of the extraction site refuses to heal properly, literally leaving the root outlined. Micro calcification within the confines of the original extraction site, further confirms the presence of an inflammatory bone lesion, often referred to as a cavitation.''.

In surgerizing mandibular lesions, involvement of the inferior alveolar nerve (IAN) by the obstructive process creates a characteristic appearance on the x-ray. The superior aspect of the mandibular canal, the ``roof,'' is usually eliminated and the fine, dense superior white line is seen to disappear as the IAN courses through the lesion site. Absolute certainty of course only occurs with biopsy confirmation of curettaged tissue from these lesions. With little practice and suspicion, near one hundred percent accuracy is possible when performing the surgical debridements.

Perhaps our subject matter has been ignored for decades because of a failure to biopsy on the part of dentistry as a whole. Do endodontists rely on the biopsy for verification of tissue? Hardly, for my dental training down-played the role.

Do oral surgeons send their extracted teeth in for biopsy along with any abnormal bone that may be removed along with those teeth? It is my policy to biopsy every tissue fragment I remove from the mouth. My judgement in determining pathology has been incorrect less than .5% of the time. Once you begin to recognize the disease, the diagnosis becomes much easier.

When curetted, the contents of these intraosseous lesions may present varying types of diseased tissue. Commonly, when surgically opened, the lesion site is void of caancellous bone; thus the derivation of the term ``cavitation,'' a hollow cavity exists. Other presentations include hemorrhagic bone with easily curettaged spicules of both viable and non-viable bone. Multiple globules of adipose tissue representing degenerated bone can commonly be curettaged; in fact, **************opening up one of these lesions with a fissure burr causes an exudate not unlike bloody chicken soup with countless micelles of fat floating on the surface of the serium***************.

If an area of condensing osteomyelitis/osteitis is evident on an x-ray associated with a suspected cavitational area, surgically speaking the alveolar bone will usually possess a consistency of pearl-like hardness implying condensed bone that has been made devital by ischemia. This is extremely difficult bone to surgically eliminate especially in the presence of the inferior alveolar nerve. These patients will often develop facial pain syndrome and can be difficult to treat.

Microscopically most biopsy reports will demonstrate marrow fibrosis as the body attempts to regenerate itself, fibrotic material heals easier than bone. Multiple fragments of bone shard appear as the impaired blood supply cannot provide adequate flow to new bone attempting to replace diseased bone. When your patients come to you months after a difficult extraction, showing a small bone fragment that has worked its way through the gingiva, you didn't forget to irrigate it out; the body refused to nourish it and it sloughed. Lymphocytes may or may not be encountered depending on the chronicity of the infection, the immunity of the patient, nutritional status, and other factors. Neurophils, most commonly seen with acute inflammatory processes, are seen infrequently with cavitations. What is seen primarily is necrotic bone flake often intermingled with viable bone. Remarkably, very few osteoblasts or osteoclasts are observed in specimens.

Most articles covering facial pain are written dealing with trigeminal neuralgia, atypical facial pain (AFP) and TMJ, with the latter two being the most common. Most of these reading this article are well-versed in the treatment of TMJ disorders. However, what treatments do you prescribe to the patient who has had 5 or 6 bite splints from other practitioners and his facial pain persists without alleviation? You must always be suspicious of a ``NICO'' process smoldering in the patient's alveolus when consulted by such a patient.

********************Their orruccurrence is of epidemic proportions; if the patient has had any third molars removed, it's a safe bet to conclude that cavitations are present. Why do they cause pain in some and not others Multiple theories have been proposed as to what mechanisms exist allowing NICO's to generate pain
A general consensus agrees upon the initial development of an intra-alveolar infection from a devital tooth, root-canaled tooth, ir extraction site. This infection persists within the alveolus and can ``tunnel'' or remain localized. In the mandible, the bascula system is an end-organ type or terminal vessel allowing basically one-way flow of blood.

Chronic infectious agents harboed in these cavities, namely bacteria and their endotoxins along with what appear to be viral agents causes a vasculitis in the arterial side eventually compromising the flow of blood.

With the onset of ischemia other changes occur. Antibiotics are not as effectivce for they rely on a blood supply to reach their target zone. Infectious agents often will die off or become rapidly attentuated and be rarely seen in biopsy. Bone necrosis develops, the affected alveolus cannot heal properly, and a pathologice entity arises called ``NICO.'' What caused the pain?

The physiology of the trigeminal nerval is extremely complex. Peripherally, the dentin contains 30,000 to 70,000 microtubules per square millimeter! Free sensory nerve endings and dentinoblasts course through these tubules and communicate with each other and pulped nerve fibers, The pulp itself contains at best 600 t 700 nerve fibers with a majority consisting of the myelinated type. This concentration of fibers is higher than the corney making human pulp an extremely pain sensitive structure. Sensory distribution of the trigeminal nerve is extensive as it supplies the ``central computer'' with information on pain, temperature and touch impulses from most of the head, skin, face, oral and nasal mucosa and dura mater.

*******************The axonal transport mechanism is capable of antegrade and retrograde flow, nourishing the periupheral branches with antegrade flow. Retrograde flow brings bacteria, viruses, endotoxins, and other degenerated compounds that are generated by devital teeth, N's, etc., to the central nervous system (CNS) and ultimately the main sensory trigeminal nucleus and spinal trigeminal nucleus. At some point, the CNS perceives a threat based on this feedback mechanism and goes on alert.

The multiplicy and overlapping peripheral innervation (dentinoblasts, pulpal fibers, periodevital ligament fibers) further complicates the picutre by converging as it approaches the CNS. An inflamed pulp from a hot tooth could be causing impulses that are below the threshold of pain perception of the patient. Add to this, a root canal and two NICO leasions from old third molar sites and the CNS, via cranbial nerve #5, is aroused it lets the patient know there is something wrong causing pain. The pain can be intermittend and excruciating like that of trigeminal neuralgia or vague and heavy, disguised as a headache, ear pain, sinus pain or non-specific jaw pain, troublesome enough to cause suicide.**********************

Localization of these pathological ``foci'' of pain-causing disease is best accomplished by anesthetic confirmation of ``neural therapy''. This technique utilizes local anesthetic, both vasoconstrictor and preservative free, that is injected into and about the periapical mucosal area of suspect N leasions or teeth in order to ascertain their effect on the patient's perception of pain. Approximately 1/2 cc of anesthetic solution is delivered to the suspected site via 30 gauge needle. If the pain is abolished, it is with high certainty that you have found the primary lesion. If only some of the pain has been attenuated, then continued testing in other regions both ipsilaterally and contralaterally in the arches is necessary. Be suspicious of any edentulous regions.

******************* You will discover every third molar area is usually associated with a NICO lesion prior to extraction.

W I S D O M T E E T H are misnamed; they are teeth of misfortune.**********************


References/I think I typed enough for now/gg

Take care.


Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
axelrose
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if proper prepararion and surgical treatment doen there is no reason no t to remove wisdom teeth.

there are several things that need to be done with lyme prior the surgery.
1) premed with clydamycin 300mg per day 2 days before and 5 days after.
2) premend with ibuprofen 600 x4 for week.
surgical removal ust involve removal of embryonic sac aroung wisdom tooth as they contain mesichimal cells that are stem cells that can convert to any kind of cell tissue with the right stimulation.
suturing fully closure is a must even if the tooth is in the mouthand not impacted.

the young the better, over 30 is very risky and the healing process for filling in the bone very poor.


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axelrose
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sorry also antivirals will keep herpes and other viruses from coming to life.
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ticktox
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Thanks GiGi for all your info. We know she'll have them out. Its just a question of whether to risk it now or wait until she's off in Dec. Her neuro condition is so fragile she doesn't want to do anything that would reverse things and deny her the chance to go to college.

Axelrose, does she need the clydamycin even if she's on other abx? She's currently on Ketek,Placquinil,Tindamax & Bactrim.

Mel,thanks for the input about your son's experience. I know what you mean about wondering whether he'll be able to go to college. My daughter has missed five years of school. Much of that time her cognitive deficit was so bad she couldn't comprehend anything she read. As a result she was only in school five months out of the past five years and had only limited tutoring. Even so she scored very high on her SATs last Nov and very high on her GED in June.

She is excited to be going away to school. She's still only at about 50% but is going to try to take a full load. Our bigger concern is whether she'll be able to handle the noise and comotion of a freshman dorm. After being isolated for five years she really wants the normal freshman experience. We've talked to officials at the school and have been assured that changes can be made if need be. We're nervous but excited for her too. A year ago we never thought it was possible.


Posts: 57 | From CT | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
levity101
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Ticktox,
I hope whenever you have the wisdom teeth out that it goes well...we have been putting this off with my 15yr old son as well, just wondering when is it a good time?

Also, it is great to hear that your daughter is moving ahead with her plans. We've been homeschooling my son and every year he hopes to be well enough to attend school. So far, he's been home for the past 3 1/2 years. It's nice to know that with her limited tutoring and schooling she did so well on her tests. Kudos to her!

My son has three more years before graduation, and I've started looking into how we will handle the transition to college in case he doesn't end up graduating. I have a feeling that despite our "unschooling" approach, he could do quite well, too.

You are both to be congratulated for perservering in such a difficult situation. Hope that she enjoys her college experience and feels better and better.

Best wishes,
Nancy


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mjbucuk
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I waited as long as possible to have my two oldest sons wisdom teeth out. All of a sudden their bottom teeth began to crowd together and ache... both had to have their impacted wisdom teeth out.

One son does not have lyme and one has had lyme & babesia. There was not much difference in their post-surgery progress.... I was really concerned that Tim would have a relapse or herx, but he did not. (Dr Jones had anticipated that it might cause a herx too) However, let me add that at this point his western blots for lyme only have bands 41 & 45 left... and his babesia tests have all been negative. Dr Jones had just kept him on the zithromax & mepron (no change in meds for the surgery).

When Tim was younger, he had sinus surgery and it triggered a major lyme relapse... but he was not being treated by a LLMD at that point, and was also not on meds for his babesia....

Best wishes for your daughter's college. My son is starting at a local community college and taking only 2 classes, and one online. I cannot wait for him to get the chance to go away to school. He missed most of junior high and parts of high school --- it really sucks, doesn't it.


Posts: 758 | From now TX | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ticktox
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Nancy & MJ,
I wish your sons well. These Lyme kids are facing such a tough challenge at such an early stage in their lives. It is tough on us as parents to see them miss out on so much. I am amazed at the strength and courage that most of these kids display. They have so much of their lives taken away from them and are so isolated from their peers yet they persevere.

Nancy, I will tell you that even if your son misses much of high school, you shouldn't worry too much. Thanks to the SATs and the GED my daughter now ends up only one year behind her class despite missing five years of school. The bright kids seem to be able to do well on these tests even without much high school education and even the good schools accept the GED. Its not what any of us planned for our kids but the good news is these kids can get into the schools of their choice even without a high school education.

My daughter is majoring in microbiology so she can study Lyme(of course some days she doesn't want anything to do with it). She'll have a huge leg up on most students given her knowledge and experience. As we all know,there is no substitute for living this disease. She knows more than all but small number of doctors. My point is that as horrendous as it is for our kids to suffer like they do, most are pretty resilient and I'm sure your sons will be as well. But I wouldn't wish this disease on my worst enemy except perhaps a few school officials and non-Lyme literate docs perhaps.


Posts: 57 | From CT | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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