Four months ago I started on what is clearly the right abx regimen. My bartonella and babesia symptoms have gone from severe to almost gone, and up until three weeks ago, I was having only the mildest Lyme relapses. I was lifting weights and jogging and stretching every day.

Then, three weeks ago, I started to experience an aerobic "training effect" as a result of being able to jog a certain number of miles, at a certain speed, every day. It's the point in training where your body starts to reach an athletic conditioning point, you significantly increase your ability to transport oxygen, and you start to throw off extra weight. When you are healthy and don't have Lyme, it's the point where you see noticeable improvement in your immune system, sleep patterns, health, appearance. At exactly the same time that these relapses started, I lost about five pounds and everyone I dealt with (too many to have paid off) started to call me "Miss" instead of "Ma'am." I was starting to look healthy again.

So three weeks ago, I started to have massive Lyme relapses, even though the abx were still working perfectly. Every Lyme relapse has lasted exactly four days, at which point the abx kill the latest generation off.

But suddenly, it's like I have a limitless supply of Lyme, and the symptoms are as bad as what you get after the initial tick bite. I am exhausted and feverish all the time, I have trouble concentrating, and I'm getting hit by wave after wave of new Lyme generations.

This is despite the facts that the co-infections are almost gone, I haven't had relapses like this in years, AND these relapses are not being triggered by stress. The only things that are different are that the amount of oxygen in my system has gone up, and I'm losing fat off my midsection.

Fat stores toxins. When you burn fat the toxins are relaesed and you feel a flare.

Also, when you exercise and get blood deeper into your tissue your abx are also going deeper. This is probably killing more lyme you don't know you had. That's why you feel like you're back at the beginning. With your increased ability to transport O2 you are getting into previously sequesterd infection.

Probably doing more keet klling and it hurts but ya know itsa good thing.

robi

I think you are mobilizing metals and not effectively moving them out of the body. If you are still heavy metal toxic, the bugs are probably less of a problem after all these months of abx; mercury has an affinity for lipids. And the exercise will do a good job moving them around and redistributing them anew.

Neurotoxins and symptoms they cause are so alike - it is difficult to differentiate.

It can take years to detox heavy metals -- just as it, most likely, took us years to accumulate them.

I had no symptoms of lyme for almost 4 years after treatment when I started slowly training for a triathlon. It took about 8 months of training and in about month 6-7 I started having nerve pain and bizarre shoulder/ arm symptoms that were reminiscent of my lyme symptoms years before. I would say this was when I was dropped some weight and was feeling my best and could aerobically execise for 2 hours straight.

After the tri, the symptoms wouldnt quit, I did the dumb thing of getting a cortizone shot hoping it was just a sports injury and I havent been well since. I have gained back the weight plus and I can barely walk, let alone run!!!

That is my story. I KNOW there is a connection between exercise and relapse, just dont know what it is yet.

I have found for myself that the lower key I am, the longer my remissions last. By lower key I am referring not only to greater than full time work (I was a tenure track prof) but also exercise/athletics. Low key, occasional stuff - fine, but more serious, robust, daily stuff - acted like any other stressor yielding a relapse.

I thought had found the right balance the last few years as evidenced by my longest remission ever -- part time work, a few activities I enjoyed (e.g., pottery, political activism), and a bit of softball, biking, and short hikes. The last few years I upped my activity culminating in once-a-week rock climbing (still with other activities moderated as above).

quote:

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Originally posted by Ruffy:
Let's put it this way, my relapse started IN THE GYM. I was doing my typical normal routine, chest and shoulders. I was completely fine. I decided to throw in some additional sets of leg press because I had time and in the middle of one of my sets, all hell broke loose. There is definitely some type of correlation. I have absolutely no idea what it is. Three weeks prior to this, I ran a half marathon in my best time ever. I have no idea what to think. There was no precursor for me. I went from feeling great to MAJOR relapse in the gym. It makes me wonder how far I can push myself after this remits.

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Ruffy.. (and Liz)

This is really interesting to me.

PURE THINKING OUT LOUD HERE:

When you say 'all hell broke loose' in the midle of a workout, I take that to mean severe symptoms?

I have a neighbor who had symptoms of Lyme a while, went off abx and then was doing sweat baths with ingredients to promote alkalinity..
and all hell broke loose for her (severe cardiac symptoms, heart block)

Leads one to believe that the oxygen, body 'heat', circulation, ect is getting into deep pockets and relasing SOMETHING..
(whether it is spirochetes, toxins, metals, ect..)
into the blood where it circulates and causes the symptoms.

makes me wonder if there is a way to utilize this response by way of marrying it with the correct means of 'grabbing and eliminating' whatever has been 'set loose'

I mean, because setting it loose can be a good thing..and not easy to achieve in and of itself.

IF you know WHAT 'it' is..and how to grab and release it from the body..

(ie: if it is metals, perhaps cilantro/chlorella combo..
if it is Bb..perhaps an effective 'killing agent' and detox and elimination..
ect..)

I mean...since the action of MOVEMENT is clearly ahieved..
is there a way to utilize it.

((again, just thinking out loys..for releasing bad stuff without a WAY OUT can be dangerous, I would think)

I imagine first and foremost in any situation with circulating bad stuff.. you want to be sure ALL organs of elimination are clear and flowing (intestines, bladder, liver, GB, skin, lots of water, ect.)..
which is a task in and of itself, but doable.

IF something you do by way of excercise releases the bad stuff..I imagine IF you can figure out what the bad stuff is, and clearing a way for it to get out, or be bound and released..
could be an effective follow through.
(tho- the bad stuff is likely a combo of things)

I might experiment with this and post back.
I am JUST where I can start excersising more aggresively after three years..and have done allot of organ cleansing in the past few months.

Mo

You might want to check his guidelines. That may be where I saw this.

While one usually does not want to disagree with that genius Dr. B, except in cases where you hope he's wrong like this one, I'm not sure how his aerobic pathways theory would explain the way my Lyme abx are still working. While they are getting temporarily overwhelmed by Lyme, they do seem to kill every new generation within four days. Yesterday, I even went jogging again, despite being in Day Four of a relapse, and felt better afterwards--although it was also hard to get my body temperature back to normal. But then again, I also don't want to even think about what it might mean if "aerobic pathways" got damaged, since it sounds scary.

And Gigi, I always love your posts. But the thing is, it seems that if this were the mercury (in this case only, as I do agree it can be a problem), there wouldn't be any abx that particularly stand out as effective, and there would not be some abx that clearly work on co-infections. It would all be a soup of symptoms.

Anyway, thank your for your responses. It will be great to read others' experiences with this.

It's my personal opinion that Lyme can evade
abx, and hide, and remain dormant untill a stress (including physical stress) or age of the host deminishes the immune system enough so Lyme's environment becomes conducive for it to go forth an multiply. I do beleive that toxins (and other nasties) can be stored in fat cells and be dumped into the system when dieting - but personally, I've never packed any extra weight, so I can't peak to that directly (5'5- 125 lbs)

I tend to think the cell compartment HAS to be alkalized to let abx get into the cell compartment and kill it.. or it survives.
You all know I used alot of hydroxychloroquine during my Lyme therapy
for this very reason.

I am still symptom free.. and I am currently doing more physical exercise than I have ever done - for 2 months I have been
helping on a haying crew (after working a full day) and we've put thousands of bales of hay in barns in the area- and I have consistantly worked in the mow stacking at temps sometimes above 100 degrees without much air circulation. The bales weigh between 40 and 50 lbs. I used to be VERY clear what my limits were - now they're being redefined.

I'm preloading with my electrolyte mixture before I go, and am consistanly having more endurance than anyone else - regardless of age or sex. We are all drenched in sweat (jeans wet from the waist to my knees, shirts soaked) at the end of the day usualy 9 pm I am dog tired, but the next day I am fine.

I am waiting for a (Lyme) relapse - and maybe even saying bring it on if it's going to come - but so far, I am in the best shape (at 57) than I've been in in 25 years.

And I think there is enough evidence to show
Lyme can evade/go dormant/ and stress of various kinds can bring it out at a much later date.

I look at fighting Lyme like it like guerilla warfare. It hid from me for 25 years.. my turn to be the hunter.

Just wanted to add that today I finally started to feel better after a four-day relapse, walked into work, looked in the full-length mirror in the lobby of the building, and was stunned to see that a polar bear's worth of fat has melted off my upper chest in the past week (but not the triceps, darn it). That theory about fat cells and hiding places for Lyme is starting to make more and more sense.

Except that... um... there are large patches of this chubster that still have hiding places to spare. This is not going to be a fun August...

[This message has been edited by liz28 (edited 22 July 2005).]

On intense exercising causing relapse:
Intensive exercise can actually weaken the immune system. When you first start exercising, your immune system is weakened for a few days, and then begins to strengthen.

Yep...each one.

It all makes sense.

The same thing has happened to me. Last year...and everytime I lift weights to the point of physical straining that sends O2 into my Occiputal LObe...I get light headed...hear things funny, ect.

Trout

I'd have to say that for me, stopping exercise seemed to bring on my relapse.

Previously, I was treated for 11 months and remained symptom free for six years.

I worked out with weights every other day and ran on the in between days.

I wasn't training for a triathalon but I did train for and run (jog) ten milers.

The weights were my serious workout and at my best I was pressing 300 pounds for reps and my body fat was around 12%. I Lifted today and I could barely bench 190 for ten reps, a long way to go before I get back. But I will get there!

Last year I took a management job at work and started going to school 2 nights a week.

Between school, homework and family, of course my gym time decreased significantly and my diet also. Anyway, six years symptom free to a relapse of 3 months so far, I believe was from not working out.

I had no stress, I had a 4.0 in school (it wasn't that hard) and the new job allowed me to set my own schedule and pretty much had me set up for the rest of my career.

It had to be the decrease in workouts. Just my opinion.

Just my little bit to add -- exercise, particularly when it involves muscle building of any sort, can cause localized inflammation -- muscle building is essentially creating microtears in the muscle, which are then repaired, in part by invoking the inflammatory process. So what you might be experiencing is an exacerbation of ongoing inflammation/herxes.

Lo these many years ago, when I was a dewy young thing, I came back from summer vacation and began training hard for my brown belt. I was feverish, had diarrhea and fatigue, and was sore for about 6 weeks until I was back in shape.

I don't think this qualifies as the classic "overtraining" syndrome -- just my body coping with a sudden increase in strength and endurance training. But there's a good article on overtraining at Sports Medicine.com -- it may be that Lymies slip easily into the overtraining category.

Liz, have you tried increasing the natural anti inflammatories, like Omega 3 and bromelain? Just curious about whether they help at all. And I think at one point you were doing NAC and some other stuff -- are you still, and what do you think of it?

I think the release of abx and toxins from the tissues and the lymph system when you exercise can cause some of the sx you mentioned, too. I've seen it happen as the result of something as mild as massage. I would think the effect would be much more intense with vigorous exercise, when you're raising your body temperature and changing your blood gases as well as increasing circulation.

One thing I've wondered, but never seen any info on, is LD and the lungs. I was so exhausted and debilitated from LD and babs that I think it's been years and years since I drew a proper deep breath, although I exercised faithfully until about 6 months before my most recent major relapse. I've wondered if deep breathing with exercise and yoga isn't releasing both keets and toxins from my lungs.

Scott, I had a similar experience to yours. A new job led to much less exercise and a turn for the worse in my diet, and I collapsed completely. I hadn't been doing wonderfully up to that point, but I'd been functional, at least.