posted
Hey guys, I was tested for lyme and babisiosis and was on abx treatment for 6 weeks. I have a strange problem whenever i take vitamin E, i am getting symptoms back, does anyone have this kind of problem. thanks for help -Mallasani
-------------------- venkat Posts: 23 | From ashburn,va,usa | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Interesting post. there is something to this. i'm wondering my self. this is something that has to be checked into, fwiw.
years ago, i took some vit. E alone, and had slightly increased joint pain in my knee. i didn't, and still don't know how to interpret the effect.
month(s) later, i heard either a commercial, or some radio nutritionist quoting an article on vit.E augmenting rheumatiod arthritis. this effect could be good, bad, or both, and to whatever degree, each effect.
tenatively, i feel its a definite immune system effect, setting off an inflammatory effect by influencing one, or more immune system cells.
other, juxtaposed things i'm considering:
within the past year or so, als sites, spoke of vit. E having a healing effect on als, but the general lit. was not specific, not detailed. the authors of the study attributed alpha tocopherol to the effect. i don't recall if this, or a mixt. of tocopherols was used. i suspect a mixt. was used.
either lyme alone, and/or TBDs cause als.
generally, vit. E preps. have a mixt. of tocopherols and tocotrienols, with the latter being quantitatively much less than the former. so, the relative influence of each set of substituents has to be determined.
while as best i recall, i seemed have gotton only the knee symptoms, but this was so long ago, and i was largely naive about the multi-system effects of lyme that i may have had other Sx, as well.
some advice on taking vit. E that i heard from a radio nutritionist( a real nutritionist):
it should be taken incrementally in 50 i.u. for two weeks,then increase by so much over the following two weeks, and so on, until one reaches the target dose of vit. E.
for a healthy person, 400-800 i.u. maximum is best taken.
over 600-800i.u. of vit.E can exasperate one or more kinds of herpetic infections. he implied that, over this dose, it can cause an outbreak. again, i'm paraphrasing here.
too large an initial dose, can cause blood pressure problem.
did you take a mixture of tocopherols, or a product with a singular form of vit.E in it, like alpha-tocopherol?
was this another form of tocopherol; e.g. gamma-tocopherol?
what, if any, other ingredients, including 'inactive" ingredients, is in the product. you don't have to name the product or company.?
Posts: 2708 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you were only treated for 6 weeks with antibiotics for both Lyme and babesia my opinion is that the vitamin E is not your problem. That is not nearly enough treatment to get rid of babesia and probably not Lyme either.
I think it is just a coincidence that you happen to be taking vitamin E and your symptoms are coming back.
Out of curiousity, what specific symptoms do you have? Also, what antibiotics were used?
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bea made a point that i didn't address, and to which i should like to add a few of many possibilities.
1. side-effects of abx. 2. manifestations of antigenic "irritation" of bodily systems. 3. manifestations of a vigorous immune system response. 4. drug-nutrient interaction of effects, including itneraction of effects of drug metabolites and nutrient(s). this can be for day(s), or even longer, AFTER cessation of medicines. 5. interaction of effects of otc medicines with abx and/or vit. E and/or other supplements of any kind that are taken.
Posts: 2708 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Had another thought on this. Most bacteria including Lyme and babesia (a parasite) surround themselves with what is called a lipid envelope. Lyme and babesia use phosphatidylcholine -- one of the good fats for this purpose.
Haven't seen any studies on this, but it is possible that Vitamin E which is another good fat may also be used for this purpose. If that was the case, then yes Vitamin E could be providing "fuel" for the bugs to multiply.
People need phosphatidylcholine for liver and brain function and Vitamin E is needed by the body as well. My husband's LLMD made a comment regarding replacing COQ10 which is also used by the bugs -- if you are treating the infection and provide the raw ingredients the bugs normally rob from the body it will draw the bugs to the supplements and actually should make the treatment more effective.
I agrre with this approach as I don't think you can ever starve out the bugs without killing yourself.
As another example, if you become too magnesium deficient you could develop a severe heart arrythmia which could lead to a heart attack or stroke. The bugs also love magnesium and rob this from the body.
Get as healthy as you can and your immune system will help the antibiotics kill the bugs. That's my advice.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
ArtistDi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2297
posted
My llmd has told me that certain supplements can cause excerbations in symptoms: E, C, the Bs (except B12 I think) and D. I am not sure if he is getting this information via the Marshall, but he said that Niciamide (sp) and vitamin A help to stem reactions.
The mycelized A has helped to stem some reactions for me.
Just repeating what he told me, so not impossible for E to cause some trouble.
Posts: 1572 | From Hatfield, MA, USA | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
* that is aimed at: those who know how to read, but haven't read a book since the day they graduated high school.
* something those with poor lifestyle habits who can then, with one hand, wave a mainstream magazine/newspaper showing this,or point to the TV screen, and mock their responsible relative/spouse, saying,"See...," and with the other hand wave that plastic/paper insurance card that won't cover vit. E, in the face of the responsible relative.
* would get thrown back at the high school student who submitted this for serious consideration.
* could cause an undergraduate college student to repeat the course, if they submitted this for serious consideration.
* the kind of study you should do to come up with the conclusions you had in mind to begin with.
* the kind of study to do to prevent the drug company from defunding the chair of your department,or o/w saving your job....
* if you need a cheap, "quick and diry" propaganda piece in the service of some agenda.
* cherry-picking data mining, data messagers.
I believe this type of study is called a meta-analysis, that involves harvesting results from
studies of people with conditions ranging from
normal to the follically challenged to toothless
hags, to that person with all those tubes and
medicines, to the morbidly obese person for whom
the fire department had to remove the front of
the building in order to take him/her to the meat
market to find a scale that they could weigh the
person on--that guy who would've dropped dead on
the spot with the next step.
the studies selected for metanalysis differed radically in:
* methods for choosing people
* methods of design for each study; e.g. single and double blinded studies; men; women; children; ages
* methods for measuring other parameters of health: life-style habits ranged from 'ideal' to the deranged to the bizzare.
* that the truth is an utter irrelevance in the service of ....
this is a pretension to ...
a shell of ...,and therefore insubstantive.
For a serious consideration of the clinical effects of vitamin E, start with the Shute Bros., one or both being medical doctors who were pioneers in the clinical use of vitamin E starting in 1947; yes, 1947.
posted
pq -- I'm with you 100% on the Vitamin E study being flawed.
Saw today similar info on "news of the day" from some internet site about B vitamins not preventing heart attacks -- no info on whether doses even lowered homocysteine which is only 1 of many factors which contribute to heart attacks.
If it is reported in the mainstream press I usually don't even bother reading the nutritional info as it is usually negative and flawed.
A friend asked their doctor -- a gerontologist actually -- about the Vitamin E study. That doctor had a good comeback -- He said unless my friend was planning to take the whole bottle at once it wouldn't hurt them. Just to use their common sense -- after all lots of foods have vitamin E in them and it is considered an essential vitamin -- the body can't make it.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree with Bea Seibert, that it is very early in your treatment, and the exacerbation of your symptoms may be due to the primary infections, rather than some kind of interaction with the E. E has anti-oxidant properties, and I feel it was definitely helpful to take, though I can't say there was an obvious positive effect (such as I experienced with sulfate combinations or colloidal silver). My suspicion is that you are having a "herxheimer" reacton- this effect, which is a result of toxins released by dying bacteria, is a secondary result of a treatment that is effective against lyme (such as antibiotics, rife, heat, and others). I also concur, given my esperience, that your treatment may be rather mnimal- is your doc among the "lyme-literate"? What are you taking for babesia? Good luck- its one sucky disease; I hope you get well as soon as possible! DaveS
Posts: 4567 | From ithaca, NY, usa | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic