posted
Well I have to admit..Years ago I thought the idea of being able to sexually transmit Lyme and or its coinfection just didn't exsist bu as of today? I'm not so sure this isn't exactly whats happening here. My husband went in for a pretty major back surgery in March of this year. Since then he's not been right.. As of about a month ago he's REALLY not been right and his complaints? He sounds like me only with a male voice. It's really kind of frightening. He keeps telling me he's totally worn out. Wakes up like he hasn't slept at all. He knows there's stuff around the house that needs to be done but he doesn't have the energy to even attempt it. He told me last night when he runs to the store or washes the floor like he did the other day he's shot for the rest of the day he said he feels like he pulled a 12 hour shift at work. HE's also been complaining about dizziness, all over weakness, pain in the legs and feeling just horrid. He sounds SO much like me.. So On monday he is also seeing my doctor and I want Lyme and Coinfection tests run on him. Now for my question. What are the best labs to do this with? Should I suggest Igenex? MDL? Both? Any idea's? Thanks
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I gave it to my wife some present huh I went with Igenex
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Linda LD
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6663
posted
At least you have done all the homework and recognize it!
L
Posts: 1171 | From Knoxville, TN US | Registered: Dec 2004
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Just Julie
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posted
Just to address your post question "think I infected my husband"? I chased that trail some years ago when I didn't know why I wasn't getting "all better" after many abx combos, and at least a year or two of taking them.
My LLMD let me suggest that perhaps my husband was reinfecting me every time we were "intimate" (unprotected sex, my tubes are tied) So, I hogtied my husband into "using" protection, while taking 300 mg of doxy per day, for 3 months. Our own little test tube research study.
I not only did not get "all better", but my husband did not show any more symptoms (none which I can 100% ascribe to his having Lyme)after taking the doxy for 3 months. I finally did get him tested by Igenex, and guess what? He tested more positive than myself or my sons.
I had to let go of my husband letting himself be treated w/ abx, because not only was he not willing to continue on with abx treatment for his "positive" Igenex lyme test results (with no symptoms, remember) but because I did NOT see a definitive change in any of my own symptoms in that 3 month time period that he was taking abx, and we were not having unprotected sex.
Our experiment ended, and I continued on with my own lyme treatment. I came to accept that if lyme is sexually transmitted, like so many here think it is, then it will have to be proved with unequivocal medical scientific proof for my husband to be treated for his own positive Lyme test results.
Not exactly your supportive spouse story, I know, and I know there are many out there like me living in the same marriage scenario situations.
But, may I pose an idea here for you all? So, say that Lyme is not, and has not, been scientifically proven to be sexually transmitted. How can a partner in a relationship (married or not) PROVE beyond a doubt, that they gave Lyme to their partner? Even if, and I say this with a big EVEN IF, the infected partner can say "well, I know my partner (uninfected) was raised in a bubble, never went outside, never camped, hiked, walked under tall trees, walked alongside tall grass ANYWHERE IN HIS/HER ENTIRE LIFE.
I say, you do not know that persons (uninfected) complete life history. You really don't. It may be that in early childhood, that uninfected person was bitten by a tick, and never knew it. And was healthy (from a healthy immune system and lifestyle)until the time they became symptomatic?
And the lyme that they caught early on in their lives, that was kept in check by a healthy immune system, is brought out by a stressor-like a surgery, car accident, death, divorce, etc.??????
That's my thought to ponder, one I"ve thought of myself, often, because my husband was not an outdoor nature person like me, never hiked with me, or camped, or anything, yet he tests more positve w/ Lyme than me, and has essentially NO lyme symptoms. But, he did have horseback riding lessons as a child, and did go camping and hunting before I met him (and I met him when he was 15 yrs old, and I was 12 yrs old!).
Just a thought. Helps to keep the conversation going, and the blame game from taking over the marriage.
-------------------- Julie Posts: 1027 | From Northern CA | Registered: May 2001
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Sue vG
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posted
I think my husband has it too. He refuses to get a test. Neither of us ever had the EM rash, and my last tick bite (of two in my whole life) was in '89. So who gave it to whom?
We have several members here whose entire families - 3 generations - have it. Maybe it's getting passed along on shared coke cans in addition to in utero transmission?
I expect the research to be a long time in coming, since we can't seem to get the most basic lyme research done.
Posts: 1307 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I believe not only is it sexually transmitted but think it is much more contagious than that.
About 22 yrs ago my father had the bullseye rash on his arm. He cut his own firewood in the early fall for winter in Wisconsin. The doctor gave him 2 weeks of doxy. He has had so many problems and lyme symptoms ever since. My mother has had lyme symptoms for years as well as my sister. I really didn't put two and two together till after my diagnosis and testing. They think I am crazy when I try to get them tested.
Someone on this thread made a reference to getting lyme from a "soda can" I think that might not be as far fetched as some think. I think lots of these supposed hereditary diseases are just close quarter infections impacting the whole family.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Hubby "gave" it to me. I tested way positive with Igenex, negative with Quest.
Wizard
Posts: 252 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2003
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troutscout
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Without a doubt....yes.
I also am starting to believe in the 'close quarters' idea myself.
No evidence...jus emperical findings on my part.
Trout
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
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JillF
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posted
My husband had to have gotten Lyme from me
There is no way he got bitten by a tick after we were married. He started showing signs just a year ago.
He has tested positive, yet I still have not tested positive yet
If aids and other diseases can be spread through sex, why not Lyme?
And, the whole, it's not proven theory so it can't be true - I think we all know how little HAS been proven about Lyme (hence the reason we've all pretty much have ended up here).
Posts: 1485 | From USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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PS can someone send me the link on how to upload pics? thx.
Posts: 116 | From Bisbee, AZ USA | Registered: Sep 2005
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Just Julie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Hey there folks, not to beat a dead horse, but thought I'd try to make my point clearer (than mud) because I tend to go round and round with my thoughts and they end up kinda torqued sometimes. . . .
Sure, it looks like lots of us have been diagnosed w/ Lyme, and then our spouses, down the road a bit, look like they have it too.
My point is, for those of us that had tick bites that THEY CAN REMEMBER, some of us w/ those known tick bites did NOT come down w/ debilitating Lyme symptoms (that we knew were lyme) right after the bite. I know my bite was in 1987, and my symptom that became pronounced, and unignorable, began 13 YEARS later, in year 2000. I had had 3 psychological horrors to deal with in the month of May, 2000, and after 3 weeks of complete and utter stressors, my body started it's twitching dance, which led me to the internet, which led me to consider Lyme, not ALS, or MS, and then to get diagnosed in Sept. 2000. My husband was showing NO SYMPTOMS.
My kids, while most likely infected from me (I became pregnant w/ kid #1 two years after my tick bite)were breastfed, and taken on long nature hikes, bikes, and camping all while very young (babies into toddlerhood and beyond).
They could have gotten the Lyme from me, in uteruo, or they could've gotten bit by a tick that I never saw, or thought was a scab, or whatever, or from my breastmilk, or C-Sect. delivery (very bloody, had placenta previa w/ both).
But, here's the rub-their symptoms did NOT start until they were 7 yrs old (oldest son) and 5 yrs old (youngest son). They were born healthy, continued to be healthy and thriving thru years of breastfeeding. All the while being taken on hikes, camping, etc.
I did not develop symtpoms until 13 yrs after my bite, my sons did not develop symptoms until 5 & 7 yrs of possible exposure/bites unknown.
So, isn't it possible that then, the uninfected spouse was bitten sometime in their younger years, and stayed healthy, then developed symptoms as their lives became more stressed, perhaps by taking care of an ailing/infected spouse?
Seems possible to me, and I choose to believe this theory, because even in the concrete jungle of Los Angeles, where both my husband and I were raised, there is the chance of coming into contact with pockets of "wild" (ha) areas where ticks may be-like the San Gabriel mountain (Big Bear, Lake Arrowhead) so camping, even very urban camping areas could still have areas where you could be bitten by a tick--right all you southern CA folks that never went anywhere else in your life before coming down with Lyme?
Just a thought, instead of automatically thinking that you're a typhoid Mary person and it's horrible that you gave your disease to the person you love the most.
-------------------- Julie Posts: 1027 | From Northern CA | Registered: May 2001
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[ 08. September 2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Tj33 ]
Posts: 192 | From Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2005
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JillF
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Member # 5553
posted
Whereas I grew up in a house filled with ticks inside and out, my husband had the opposite type of environment.
Whereas I went hiking and on picnics, etc, throughout my life, my husband never did those types of things (even as a child).
Whereas I went on fieldtrips to barns, playgrounds, etc at school, my husband never did.
Whereas I had pets who always had fleas and ticks on them, my husband never had a pet.
Whereas I lived in an area w/trees and forests, my husband did not.
Whereas I did yard work as a teen, my husband never did yard work.
Whereas I saw ticks all the time and actually found a few in my hair before, my husband has never seen a tick up close.
Whereas I had symptoms off and on that I just thought were weird throughout my teens and early 20's, my husband never did.
Whereas my memory and concentration was affected, now that I look back, as early as highschool - my husband never had any problems with his memory or concentration.
After 4 yrs of being married, that is when my husband started feeling the very first symptoms of Lyme. His memory started to go for the very first time. He started getting the aches and pains and fatigue for the very first time.
He still wasn't doing yard work, he still wasn't going on hiking trips or picnics, we didn't have any pets at the time. I have never seen a tick around at all since we moved into our house together. I just don't see where he would have gotten bitten by a tick after we were married. He doesn't even have to walk in grass or under trees from his car to work.
That is why I think he probably got it from me.
And there is research somewhere that proves that Lyme can be found in breast milk. I read it on here once awhile ago.
[ 08. September 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: JillF ]
Posts: 1485 | From USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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JillF
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posted
My husband and I cannot drink/eat aspartame.
It makes our symptoms worse.
Posts: 1485 | From USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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troutscout
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posted
Here's a kicker...I beleive that ALL theories shown above about infection with Lyme...are probably true. Why? They make sense.
Jill.......ditto. Aspartame...in fact it makes my tongue hurt and then my feet.
Weird, huh?
Trout
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
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JillF
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posted
It gives us both severe headaches and tooth pain.
It makes me start to twitch and spasm like crazy (these symptoms have pretty much stopped - except they come back after aspartame and nutrisweet)
Sometimes joint pain and/or charlie horses start
I also do not get any sleep the night that I use either
Posts: 1485 | From USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Just Julie
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Member # 1119
posted
Joe, is Pepe a German Shorthair Pointer, or a German Shepherd Puppy?
I'm an old german shepherd dog owner/lover from long time back. Seeing's how you're no particular breed, I was wondering who Pepe is.
[ 10. September 2005, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Just Julie ]
-------------------- Julie Posts: 1027 | From Northern CA | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I've stopped counting the number of intances where an asymptomatic husband or wife of a LD patient has turned out to have higher antibody levels.
I'm not ready to make assumptions yet about whether that tells us anything about sexual transmission. If you're in close enough proximity to have sex, you're in close enough proximity to be exposed to the same ticks (sadly, for those of us whose libidos still function, the reverse is not true).
Many are infected by nymphs which are so tiny it would be a marvel if you actually noticed the bite.
To me the more telling point is the high antibody levels found in these asymptomatic spouses. Antibodies confirm exposure, they do not measure infection. If they are effective (bactericidal) antibodies, their presence at high levels would logically mean that infection is being contained.
It IS tempting to speculate that sexual transmission occurs, and that because the vector is not a tick (whose saliva suppresses the immune system) but a human being the antibody response is more immediate and robust, making disseminated infection and subsequent disease less likely.
I would still urge a spouse (or anyone) with a positive test to pursue antibiotic treatment.
First, by the time you have symptoms you may no longer test positive, and insurance coverage for treatment may be unavailable.
Second, dead bugs don't mutate. If you don't treat, and your antibody levels go down so that on a subsequent test six months later you test negative, you have NO way of knowing whether that means your immune system has dispatched the bugs or they've simply adapted their surface antigens, sequestered themselves in parts of the body where immune system surveillance is quite poor, and are busy replicating and preparing to make you horribly ill for a horribly long time.
Third, you may have coinfections that will, over time, compromise your immune system so that your antibody levels come down while your spirochete load goes up. As piss-poor as Lyme tests are, Babesia tests are much worse, we have tests for exactly two of a dozen or so known pathogenic strains.
Fourth, there are a variety of treatment modes which are may work well over a short course in the early stage but not later on. In early infection, Doxy has that nice broad sprectrum activity against TBDs, effective against everything but Babesia, as far as I know. If you won't do Doxy, oh symptomatic spouse, because you don't want to damage your gastrointestinal microflora, how about IM Bicillin? A couple pokes in the butt a week for a person in good health is a very small price to pay for avoiding borreliosis, and the microflora do not appear to suffer much.
You could also pretend you're going abroad and take the prophylactic treatment for malaria, Malarone. Millions of people do, and they don't seem to suffer much. My reading of posts here suggests it is at least as effective as Mepron and Zith, plus it's brief and since you're nice and healthy you should tolerate it easily.
Alternately, you can wait until you're as sick as me. At which point the question isn't whether you'll do IV antibiotics but for how long. Contemplating Doxy or a biweekly poke in the butt vs. months with a PICC line is a good mental exercise for the asymptomatic spouse. If they still decide they don't want to treat, at least they'll have done it with appropriate warnings.
Finally, and this could well be the most important point, as we age our immune systems grow less competent. When something has the potential for devestating your health and well-being that Lyme does, and is as good at evading your immune system as Lyme is, you want to deal with it when your resources are at their peak, not diminished by age and disseminated infection.
People can differ about this, but my reading of the published data strongly suggests that exposure to Bb is a risk factor for Alzheimers, and a significant one.
The most recent study confirming an association was 2004, so if you think the Lyme/Alzheimers link's been discredited you need to update your reading. The only study strongly exonerating Bb in Alzheimer's was conducted deliberately in non-endemic areas. It didn't show that Bb doesn't raise your risk of Alzheimer's, it just showed that Bb isn't essential - not reassuring to anyone who understands the difference between a sufficient vs. a necessary cause.
Every study I've read conducted in parts of the world where Lyme is well documented has found a strong positive correlation.
So even if you get through youth and mid-life without symptoms, you may well be condemning yourself to premature senility. I would recommend reading the sites for Alzheimer spouses and caregivers, so you can really appreciate what you're risking inflicting on your symptomatic significant other (who may well, by the time you succumb, have beaten the bugs into submission and looking foward to living well, not caring for a vegetative partner).
My (possibly more than) 2 cents,
Paulscha
Posts: 199 | From Santa Cruz, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Just Julie
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posted
Good lord, Paulscha, that was a WONDERFULLY thought out post. I appreciate how you went into enough detail to back up your information. Just enough for my brain to absorb, but not too much. My medical background has not been exercised in 13 yrs (the last time I worked as a hospital nurse before I had my 2nd son and quit for good) but I still understood your explanation quite well.
And I of course, completely agree with your thinking on if your spouse is close enough to sleep with, then close enough to have one of those nymph ticks jump on board after jumping off of you (the infected spouse).
My german shepherds slept in bed with us for years, soe even though my husband NEVER went on any of our hikes in the open spaces here in Northern CA for the 15 yrs of owning those dogs, they could have easily brought in any number of nymph's or even very small deer ticks in their fur, who of course could've jumped off of them, to bite my husband, who would've never seen the tick, much less paid attention to the bite area.
JMHO. Julie
-------------------- Julie Posts: 1027 | From Northern CA | Registered: May 2001
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