posted
Let me start by saying I am very sorry for those who I will offend, but I need to ask this question. My girlfriend and I have been together for 10 years. She was diagnosed with Lyme Disease 3 years ago. She has been on antibiotics for 3 months and uses a Rife machine all the time. They have changed her antibiotics and she continues to use the Rife machine. What are the chances she can pass Lyme's Disease through oral sex?
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robi
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posted
[I edited this becuase I was wrong]
I do not find talking about sex offensive at all. In answer to your question ............... no one knows for sure.
And who's doin who? You her ? or her you? I think the chances would be different.
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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SBall Coach 13
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posted
I am sorry that my 1st reply is so bold but I had another screen name and couldnt remember the password. My girlfriend is a regular member but would be absolutely mortified if she knew I was asking the question. I guess my question could go either way. Me her or her me.
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robi
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I think it is wise to protect yourself. I believe spirochetes have been foound in body fluids.
I am not a dr.
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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lpkayak
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posted
i'm not a doc either---i don't think your question was bold at all---this place is here to get/give info that the "real medical community" doesn't know or share.
remember, i'm not a doc but i do have many years of experience. i think there is something to be said for being on abx...if one is on abx it might be hharder to transmit...it might not be in fluids---probably hiding out in tissues. some of my knowlwdge is from knowing how dr. j treats pregnant woman to keep them from giving lyme to babies thru placenta...some is from what has happened to me when on oand off abx...some is just from knowledge of the bug and what it does...but i am not a doc and i know that no one really understands this disease...but, remember ...there are no dumb questions...no one should be afraid toask on here
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lyme_suz
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posted
I think what has done has been done. I have heard that those with strong immune systems don't come down with lyme. My husband has not. I am not commenting on what kind of sex we are talking. To each his own!
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lyme_suz
Unregistered
posted
Want to clarify that I am not can't think of the word-- making light of your concern. Truth is I have been very troubled at times over this. Best Wishes, Suz
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Now, I don't remember reading anything about girly fluids being a highway for the keets.
But, I did see a LLMD who had isolated bb in sperm. ( I don't mean I was actually THERE when was he was doing it!...lol that didn't sound good!)
I don't think that it necessarily means it's not there.
My whole thought up until now, was him giving it to me which I don't think I have to worry about. Now, I'm depressed! can't we have ANYTHING? great question!
-------------------- -Kimmi Just keep swimming! Posts: 251 | From East Greenville pa, usa | Registered: Jun 2005
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Softballmom
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I was just reading and caught your name. I am a fellow coach too.
I was infected with Lyme disease at least seven years before it was diagnosed.
I am curious how long your girlfriend had it before diagnosis or if they caught it right away.
My husband tested positive last year. He really wasn't showing symptoms yet but his numbers were actually higher than mine and I was very sick.
I would suggest being tested yourself just in case.
-------------------- It's not the Lyme, I just can't spell! Posts: 1331 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
the other thing to do is for you to take abx so they are in your system before and during sex. that way the abx would get the bugs right away. there was a study done on this and like the other poster said they "saw" it in men's fluid-not woman's fluid. it really would be good to be able to talk to an llmd-a good one who knows about the study -about the best plan. i'm pretty sure what dr. J says would make sense...but i don't know if he could talk to you. you could write ilads...sometimes they answer questions. good luck.
ps-anyone know about saliva?
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kara Tyson
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posted
Your question is perfectly acceptable. I just dont have an answer to it!
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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chroniclymie
Unregistered
posted
ifind it very hard to me that you ask this question lol pun. cetes are in all body fluid, however ,it is not in the same quantity as aids or hepatitis ,that is is readily transmitted. you can't get aids from kissing so i would assume that you can't get bb from kissing or oral sex. most pcr's come up negative because there are so few actively moving ctes in the blood stream theat is it hard to get a poositve pcr. quantity ois the key here, must have cetes to cause transfer andthe bacteria would probably die in the mouth from digestive enzymes. also vaginal fluid may have cetes but you would need an open sore in the mouth fro them to get in the blood stream. i was a doctor and did stay at a holiday in last night.
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lymie tony z
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I believe this is a very common concern for all of us out there... Considering the spirochete is somewhat of a cousin to syphilis... Many of our spouses come down with lyme...but I'm not so sure it isn't just a proximity issue...whether thou wentest so did I....
Hey Kimmee....is that how you got more oral sex from your partner???....cool... And hey if chetes are killed in the mouth it's a good excuse to get more fellatio...wow!!
HAHAHAHA..... LOL... No no one knows for sure...but hey you probably have it already anyway so don't worry...you just may be asymptomatic.....or you're genetics and immune system is doing a good job keeping you from getting sick... Much like some of the hiv positive carriers...there's a genetic marker found in the carriers that prevent them from getting aids....
Have fun..........zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
hey Zman, A girls gotta do what a girls gotta do.
-------------------- -Kimmi Just keep swimming! Posts: 251 | From East Greenville pa, usa | Registered: Jun 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
I am not sure whether it is possible or not either. My doctors all have different opinions but the consensus is "it is possible".
I would disagree with the post above that oral sex is safe if you have no open sores. For example, we know it is transmitted from mother to child via breast milk and I doubt that happens because of open sores in the child's mouth...
I wish we had an answer to this question. Unfortunately, I suspect the answer is that yes, it can be transmitted.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Aniek
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posted
I hope the answer is no, but we can't be sure.
From my days in HIV prevention education, options for protection:
A dental dam would probably help prevent, it's a square piece of latex that was created to prevent the transmission of STDs from oral sex on a woman.
You can also take a latex glove, cut off the fingers, but keep the thumb. Then cut up the side so it's a rectangle with the thumb sticking out.
I have also heard of using saran wrap, but NOT microwavable! The microwavable has little holes to let the air through.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
NOpe!!! HIGHLY doubtful!!! IMO!!!
Leptospirosis is a spirochete too but it transmits easily through water, milk, liquid- just because it is a spirochete like syphillis does not mean Lyme is transmitted the same way. Spirochetes are different. I believe if it were sexually transmitted I would be getitng morning-after calls from people who felt sick instead of tick-bit calls. But I don't!
Also the former head of ILADS tested her patients vaginal mucosa and semen when in treatment and yesm found a difference in spirochetosis- when in treatment there weren't loads of Bb as with those NOT on antibiotics. My llmd told me that (he knows her) and said he considers that IF it is sexually transmissible it is so only rarely from people not in treatment.
REMEMBER- Lyme is NOT a threat to the blood supply (like Babs is!!!). You can get a whole pint of Lyme blood and be ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What does THAT say about infection>? Either that some people fight it off, or that it is a question of reinfection and bacterial load- and genetic predisposition- but also that- it is NOT highly transmissible. Enough people including myself got WAY sick at tick bite transmission to show that you can get way sick right after infection. So... no phone calls from people in the area, "I slept with a member of your local support group and we didn't use protection- now it's 3 days later and I feel like I have the flu!!" Nope!!! Hasn't happened yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
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p.s. WHen doing lab work they discovered that injecting mice with loads of spirochetes via needle injection is LESS effective than tick-infecting mice!!! Even though there are less actual spirochetes- because what the tick saliva does to the immune modulation at the point of entry is important to infectivity-
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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SForsgren
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CaliorniaLyme, How do we know that Lyme is not a risk to the blood supply? Has that been proven? I've talked with other qualified individuals that have indicated that there is a risk. Hmm....
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
I am also curious... IF Bb is transmitted sexually, are all the other co-infections potentially transmitted as well? It seems odd to me that Babesia, Ehrlicha, Bartonella, Bb could be transmitted unless EVERY possible bacteria could be transmitted sexually. I tend to fall on the side that there is a risk and it could be transmitted but who knows? I think this is a good dialog.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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lymie tony z
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Hey Kimmee...you go girl....hee hee......
IMO it would be irresponsible for any lymie to give blood or have unprotected sex until all the data is in.....
and I hate raincoats...but if I infected my wife who is working...then where would we be??
Not to mention all the pain and crap I deal with would have been passed onto her...for what...an orgasm??
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
Because blood companies watch the bottom line- !!because it has been studied- Babesiosis IS considered a BIG threat to the blood supply!!! Not a SINGLE case of transfusion transmitted Lyme disease has EVER been reported- again- onset of illness after infection can be realtively immediate as seen by myself and many who have been tick-infected- but MANY MANY cases of Babesiosis acquired from transfusion have been extensively and alarmingly documented-
As far as bacteria go- some are like Tularemia- airborne- some are passed via contact touchwise- some this way- bacteria are different- there are gram-positive bacteria- gram-negative- there are many different kinds and many different kinds of infectivity- they are not the same- Babesiosis as above- is VERY easily passed via transfusion- best wishes, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
The fact that a single case of Lyme transmission via blood has never been reported does not mean that it does not occur. I would think the chances of transmission via blood are even higher than other body fluids. Lyme Disease is a condition which excludes one from giving blood.
Quick search: Although there have been no reported cases of transmission of Lyme Disease by transfusion, that theoretic possibility remains, especially in view of studies showing that B. burgdorferi innoculated into blood may survive storage under blood banking conditions
Nadelman RB et al., Transfusion. 1990 May;30(4):298-301 Johnson SE et al., J Infect Dis. 1990 Aug;162(2):557-9
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Andie333
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posted
I'm with you, Zman!
As far as I'm concerned, it would be irresponsible at this point to have unprotected sex with someone.
I also feel the same way about giving blood. Unfortunately, I had a 9 year span between tick bite and detection. In those 9 years, I probably gave blood at least a half dozen times.
Scott, I think you're right: this is a good discussion!
Andie
Posts: 2549 | From never never land | Registered: May 2005
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So at what point can one responsibly resume unprotected sex, or can they? I mean, are we infected for life? What form is transmitted sexually, etc? Can we kiss? Share food? What can we and can't we do with our partners?
Grrr...it is a good question.
Posts: 67 | From Kansas City, MO | Registered: Sep 2004
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riversinger
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posted
California Lyme, there are FAR too many slow onset cases of Lyme to presume that because someone doesn't have symptoms right away, that it means that they were not infected!
In CA, the blood banks do NOT accept blood from known Lyme patients. Period. They don't test for it, which makes sense, because the tests are so unreliable. But they don't knowingly use it. I know, because my son has spent lots of time having blood taken, as a hemochromatosis patient.
Also, I would NEVER trust the blood banks, at this point, to decide in my best interest. They will decide based on the bottom line, which at this point does not include screening for Lyme because it would be too expensive to do the screening!!!!And how are they going to screen for babesia, when there are only tests for 2 out of 13 strains?
And of course there are no proven cases of transmission, because first of all, they aren't looking, and second, how would they know if the blood was infected, and third, how long might it take for the person infected to come down with symptoms?
As someone who spent all her long life in Lyme endemic country, never once saw a tick, alive or dead, and never had an EM rash, I know perfectly well that it would be possible to be infected by multiple routes without having a clue as to which one it was. And there is lots of literature proving latency of the infection.
As to whether Lyme is ACTUALLY transmitted by blood, or sex, or any other means, the jury is still out. It seems to me you may want to err on the cautious side, as some of the coinfections ARE known to be transmissible, and the tests are just as unreliable for those.
CaliforniaLyme
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posted
riversinger, there are far too many immediate cases of infection for it to be ruled out!!! in all these years one would reasonably think that ONE case would have been documented- just ONE! as well- they HAVE repeatedly traced Lyme-infected blood donor donations and found it did not transmit or seroconvert- posted that on sep thread because this is taking away from title subject of sex- and I trust mercenary bottom-lining blood banks to be just that- and to be wary of liability re Lyme-transfusion! They DO TEST donated blood for Babesiosis- for Lyme- they don't bother!!!!!!! Would I give blood>? No. Because if you haev EVER been infected with Babs it is a LIFETIME exclusion from blood donation- for Lyme- it's not- Does this mean I think that is wise>? No. Does that mean I think the Lyme is GONE>? Nope!! Heck nope!!! But it means what it means- that babs is very dangerous re blood products- and that Lyme is apparently not!!!!!!!!!!!! best wishes, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
Even babs testing and the follow-on assumption that means it is safe is apparently not true. Of the over a dozen known types of babs (13 and counting), there are only blood tests for two of them. So it seems that there is still a risk of getting Babs from a blood transfusion as well.
I just don't buy the fact that anyone can prove Lyme cannot be transmitted by blood. If it can potentially be transmitted sexually, it would seem that blood would be an even more likely medium.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
I agree Babs is still a risk because of the variation. But you & I differ re Lyme & sexual risk assessment as well- so we disagree*)!! take care, best wishes, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Bottom line.. I think it would be better to be safe than sorry.
As Zman and Andie have already, and camly I might add, stated.
So, I guess it's time to get a little creative. Maybe it's a good time to start marketing adult lubricants for the LYMIE??? *KY-CILLAN?? *rocephin for her pleasure??
I'll be out getting my saran wrap, I'll get the colored kind to spice it up a bit
-------------------- -Kimmi Just keep swimming! Posts: 251 | From East Greenville pa, usa | Registered: Jun 2005
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troutscout
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posted
I have seen this discussed on here for years....folks...both ways I've read for and against.
But......why pull the pin on the grenade if you don't want it to explode.
Trout
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
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lpkayak
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posted
wow-this really exploded. i messed up my pain meds and have been in bed for a few days...i'm glad this dicussion is happeneing, tho.
-troutscout...it just doesn't seem fair to me to have so much of your life taken away and then have to have this part taken away too. plus...the endorphins help with pain for awhile after...well something helps. everyone knows i'm not a doc and i get stupider all the time...especially after messing up my meds.
river singer: i really appreciate your calm-sensible-non-foggy answer. thank you.
the note about open sores was important...
and as far as the blood bank thing goes...my understanding has been keets don't like blood-they prefer to do their screw-around thing thru tissue. also-if there are abx's around they "hide". i'm not sure if they go to tissue to hide or if they hide in the blood or other fluids from the abx(if they did that)...what would happen in a few days "after the act" when they notice "there's no abx out there..."
i'm messed up right now...and tending to feel really down about this-usually i'm pretty optimistic. but-even if we don't figure this out...i think it's good to talk about it.
good luck to everyone.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: and as far as the blood bank thing goes...my understanding has been keets don't like blood-they prefer to do their screw-around thing thru tissue. also-if there are abx's around they "hide". i'm not sure if they go to tissue to hide or if they hide in the blood or other fluids from the abx(if they did that)...what would happen in a few days "after the act" when they notice "there's no abx out there..."
Just because they prefer tissue doesn't mean they are not found in the blood. My blood PCR was positive so they were in my blood at that particular time.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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SForsgren
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posted
and... the Bowen test ONLY uses blood and they find keets in blood all the time....as do others that use darkfield microscopy, etc.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
This is a great topic and most important to discuss.
There is still too much we don't know about TBDs (tick infections), but we all know how devastating they are on all levels.
IMHO, it would be irresponsible to have unprotected sex, give blood and donate organs with a history of TBDs.
However, the fun needn't stop. Getting back to the original question about oral sex, in sex education training we learned about the many uses of saran wrap. Yes, the stuff in your kitchen.
Have fun y'all!
Posts: 925 | From California | Registered: Sep 2004
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liz28
Unregistered
posted
This is one where you might try the "acne" trick. There are two Lyme antibiotics, doxycycline and minocycline, that are regularly prescribed on an open-ended basis by dermatologists. They are considered completely safe, although minocycline can create side effects in some people (I can't tolerate it, but have heard dermatologists go on and on about how great it is). Doxy, especially, is a first line of defense for early Lyme infection. If you were on it, it might afford you some protection.
Please be aware that not everyone agrees with rife as a useful therapy. Also, you didn't say which drugs your friend is on. It can take a while to find out which ones are the best for a particular person.
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posted
My wife had lyme and I have never had it... Plus I have had tick bites more times than I can count. (I did a lot of fishing years ago) My immune system is very strong and I work hard to keep it that way...
My advice to the young man regarding sex and lyme... I would say,, DON'T DO IT!!! You got too much to loose just for a few moments of fun... But, no matter, you have already been exposed so go for it.... Great Topic!!!!
Tj
Posts: 192 | From Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2005
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