Topic: 1992: no evidence of B. b transmitted by transfusion.
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
1: Infusionsther Transfusionsmed. 1992 Aug;19(4):204-7. Related Articles, Links
Screening of blood donors and recipients for Borrelia burgdorferi antibodies: no evidence of B. burgdorferi infection transmitted by transfusion.
Bohme M, Schwenecke S, Fuchs E, Wiebecke D, Karch H.
Abteilung fur Transfusionsmedizin und Immunhamatologie, Universitatsklinikum, Wurzburg, FRG.
In the study presented here, the prevalence of antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi, the etiologic agent of Lyme borreliosis, was determined in a group of blood donors from the Wurzburg area (Southern Germany). 13 of 472 donors (2.7%) tested were positive by immunoblotting (IB). These 13 donors were examined in more detail by physical examination, anamnesis and determination of inflammation parameters of the blood. All persons were asymptomatic for Lyme borreliosis. One of 5 who remembered a tick bite actually had suffered from an erythema chronicum migrans 5 years ago. Another one had been affected by fever, headaches and pain in the limbs, arthralgia and motoric disorder in both hands 6 months before examination. Analysis of the blood did not provide any evidence of an acute infection. Moreover, each of the 472 serum samples was analyzed by a hemagglutination test (HAT). 26 (5.5%) showed a positive test result. In order to investigate whether a seroconversion of the recipients by transfusion of B. burgdorferi antibody-positive blood had taken place, 9 recipients of blood products originating from the 13 IB-positive donors were serologically reexamined. All samples taken proved to be antibody-negative. Consequently, the transfusion did not produce any seroconversion in the patients thus treated.
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
1: Beitr Infusionsther. 1992;30:96-9. Related Articles, Links
[Infections with Borrelia burgdorferi in Wurzburg blood donors: antibody prevalence, clinical aspects and pathogen detection in antibody positive donors]
[Article in German]
Bohme M, Schembra J, Bocklage H, Schwenecke S, Fuchs E, Karch H, Wiebecke D.
Abteilung fur Transfusionsmedizin und Immunhamatologie in der chirurgischen Universitatsklinik, Wurzburg, BRD.
The prevalence of antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi, the etiologic agent of Lyme borreliosis, was determined in a group of blood donors from the Wurzburg area (Southern Germany). 26 of 472 donors (5.5%) tested positive in a hemagglutination test. When performing immunoblots only 13 donors (2.7%) gave rise to B. burgdorferi-specific antibodies. 9 of them were examined in more detail by anamnesis, physical examination, determination of inflammation parameters of the blood and polymerase chain reaction (PCR) analysis of urine. All persons were asymptomatic for Lyme borreliosis. One of 4, who remembered a tick bite, actually had suffered from an erythema migrans 5 years ago. Another one had been affected by fever, headaches and pains in the limbs, arthralgia and motoric disorder in both hands 6 months before examination. Analysis of the blood did not provide any evidence of an acute infection. In the urine of 2 donors we detected B. burgdorferi-specific DNA by PCR. No seroconversion due to blood transfusion could be observed, when 9 recipients of blood products provided by the 13 seropositive donors were serologically reexamined. PCR analysis of urine samples of 5 recipients was also negative.
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
riversinger
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4851
posted
Lack of seroconversion does not mean lack of infection. Or, as our Lyme doctors are so fond of saying, absence of proof is not proof of absence.
What tests are they using? Elisa? Would you stake your health on that?
I'm not saying that Bb absolutely is transmitted via blood. I'm saying we don't know, and be careful.
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
riversinger-
for me, logically, the only way infection could exist through blood donation would be IF for some reason the onset was always delayed both serologically AND symptomatically in blood-transfused people. Because that is what is reported by multiple people- I do believe that with tick infection that the rapid onset of Lyme for many of us would be equaled in transfusion acquired Lyme though-
did you ever see the Rocky Mountain labs tape of a human lymphocyte being killed by a spirochete- and then of another human cell killing a spirochete>? fascinating tape!!! SOME people do have systems which kill Lyme more than others. Some (like me*)! don't. There is a possibility suggested by the facts presented by multiple people in multiple sites of reference that Lyme straight to the blood stream may be at a disadvantage!!! Tissue, dermal invasion, seems to be its way of taking over the body. This fits with what they learned re infection in mice. I will post that here too- that mice infected via tick get infected way more than mice via injection!!! best wishes, Sarah
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
1: J Clin Microbiol. 1996 Sep;34(9):2297-9. Related Articles, Links
Accelerated infectivity of tick-transmitted Lyme disease spirochetes to vector ticks.
Shih CM, Liu LP.
Department of Parasitology and Tropical Medicine, National Defense Medical Center, Taipei, Taiwan, Republic of China.
We determined whether the span of infectivity of Lyme disease spirochetes (Borrelia burgdorferi) to vector ticks varies with the mode of infection in laboratory mice. Noninfected larval deer ticks were permitted to feed on two strains of spirochete-infected mice that had been naturally (via tick bite) and parenterally (via needle injection) infected with B. burgdorferi 2, 4, or 8 weeks earlier, and engorged ticks were dissected and examined for spirochetes by direct immunofluorescence microscopy. After initial infection, spirochetal infectivity to ticks was less efficient in needle-infected mice than in mice infected via tick bites. Tick-transmitted spirochetes develop more rapidly from the skin of infected mice and do not induce a strong antispirochete antibody response during the early stage of infection.
PMID: 8862604 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
What if a doctor said that you need a blood transfusion. The only blood they have for your type was donated by a Lyme sufferer (oh but he was cured before he gave blood.) Your telling me you would take the blood, yeah right. Stop trying to convince yourself there is no risk when you wouldn't do it either and you know it. No one who has had Lyme should ever give blood IMO.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I agree with you- because of a chance that there is some kind of delayed onset delayed seroconversion going on!!! I would never say that was impossible. This thread began because of the thread re sex- BUT I would take that blood any day over a Babs donor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
this is an excellent question to ask members of the infectious diseases society of america(or chapter in you state)--- if anyone of them, or their family members ever contracted tick-borne infection(s) from a blood transfusion.
Posts: 2708 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
hey guys, I think this can be confusing.
CaliforniaLyme, I think this thread might still be being misunderstood as saying you think it's OK for people with lyme to donate blood. I don't think that what's your saying.
Could you please clarify this for people so that there aren't misunderstandings? Or correct me if I'm wrong?
Thanks caat
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
To me it seems like a no brainer. If we think about how we are infected. Little tick buries his head into us and hooks up with our blood supply, sucking blood. Even though it is taking in blood some of the Lyme still manages to enter our blood stream, does it not?
We are talking about a tiny critter who isn't there to make a deposit, but to make a withdrawl. Now, just imagine having a large amount of blood from a Lyme person deposited into your body!?!?
If people's immune system isn't able to halt the miniscual Bb deposit made by a tick, what makes anyone think our bodies would so quickly be able to wipe out Bb, when dropped off in massive numbers accompanied by blood?
No doubt there are those who are bit by a tick infected with Lyme and they never contract Lyme. But as far as I am aware, you can't tell who they are by looking at them. Clearly our numbers are indicating our bodies can't handle it.
There are literally 10's, if not 100's of potential things that are transmitted in blood. What is transmitted is by no way hindered by that the fact that the medical community isn't aware of it's presense yet or that they think it can't be done.
Donate blood and you may be passing on some life threatening illness, no one even knows about yet, let alone the Lyme.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Consequently, the transfusion did not produce any seroconversion in the patients thus treated.
What needs to be noted is that the above statement is true only as of the date the study ended, which was sometime before this article was actually accepted for publication and was actually published(publication date is 1992).
That doesn't mean those people didn't later seroconvert. That doesn't mean those people didn't later get sick with Bb, while still testing negative.
I've seen too many CDC/NIH articles and alerts when they OH MY GOSH! realized that zoonoses prevalent in humans and their pets and livestock were transmitted to organ and blood recipients through transplantation and transfusion from organs and blood donated by asymptomatic donors.
Until there are definitive tests which catch infections in 100% of infected people, whether or not they are sick, whether or not they ever found a tick feeding on them, and whether or not they ever got any kind of rash or palsy, then maybe I'll trust the blood supply.
I gave blood every six weeks for years back before I became symptomatic (never found a tick on me, never had a rash). I shudder to think how many immunocompromised people I may have infected, people who maybe now, years later and sick, are being told IAIYH.
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
Once again, if you re-read CaliforniaLyme's posts in both threads she is NOT saying people with lyme should donate blood.
She has in fact said she personally thinks it's not wise, in plain english.
And I think there are misunderstandings all over the board here.
Correct me if I'm wrong CaliforniaLyme, but I think this is about probabilities, not possibilities.
I think if everyone slows down and re-reads some of this stuff you can see there isn't much difference in people's personal veiws at all.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Caat, I can only speak for myself, but I am replying in regard to the articles. The artticles are VERY old, so I wouldn't take to much credence in anything that is even claimed in any of the articles. In the world of Lyme, this stuff is out of the dark ages.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
yeah, they *are* old. I think there could be some value to some of these points they make, especially sexual transmision during abx tx (the other post), but to be honest, I'm just too tired to think about it right now. I was just concerned about people misunderstanding each other.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Thanks you Caat*)!!! Nope, don't think Lymies should donate blood. BUT I do not believe it is a major risk re blood transfusion compared to Babesiosis and those things do matter- why>? Beause if you have someone come to your Lyme group who got sick onset after blood transfusion with Lymelike symptoms- make sure they get evaluated/treated for Babs!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
riversinger
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4851
posted
After this discussion, I just heard a story that gives me pause. An 80 year old woman had a blood tranfusion a year ago. Recently, she had to have knee surgery. Following the knee surgery, she went severely downhill, and was diagnosed with ALS!!!!
Her son, who happens to have chronic Lyme, insisted on an Igenex test. She came back positive, but has not yet found anyone willing to take her case on.
Did this woman get Lyme through a transfusion? Its possible she had it prior to the transfusion. But it is also possible she picked it up through the transfusion. There is no way to tell for sure. But of course, she will never be counted as a transfusion transmitted case. She may never even be counted as a case of Lyme.
CA Lyme, I think it is entirely possible that there are cases of Lyme transmitted through transfusion of blood, and they will never be counted as such. Maybe it is not a particularly effective form of transmission, and it won't show up often, but I wouldn't bet on the incidence being zero.
posted
Whoa-okay! I finally get to weigh in on the blood donation question for Lyme victims that has plagued me for some time. If I remember right there was a California woman who got Lyme from a transfusion. She was on radio news/tv or something. I couldn't play the clip on my computer but Paula may still have it available through her website www.sewill.org. Will someone see if they can get it from her and post a link?
I have been in contact with the blood donor service director in our Midwest Region. She told me Lyme victims were not supposed to give blood until they had been symptom free for one year. (I have written correspondence stating the Blood Bank stance.) Blood Bank policy and this caution were reviewed just this past spring and the blood bank hierarchy decided to keep the Lyme caution in place with no other recommendations/considerations. I was hoping for change. Not going to happen. As you all know, and as was pointed out, there is no certainty that one is free from Lyme, whether they are symptomatic or not.
I believe the Blood Banks cannot change their policy because this would lend credence to chronic Lyme, which you all know is still a war being waged everywhere. If Blood Banks were to change policy/admit that they cannot guarantee Lyme-free blood, then they would be admitting the blood supply is not safe.
Think about Hepatitis. Let's take Hep C which I have. I can never give blood or donate organs. Why? Because my blood and organs could transmit Hep C to an uninfected person. I am supposedly "cured" after going through the dreadful Ribavarin/Interferon therapy. No Hep C bugs are detectable in my blood. BUT! That doesn't mean the Hep is gone. It is just undetectable which is why I can't donate blood or organs. Blood Banks know this. They should also know Lyme is no different.
This bothers me so much that I asked a fellow Lyme sufferer, a microbiologist, about Lyme being transmitted through transfusions. He said it is "unlikely" mostly because Bb does not like the blood and prefers tissue, etc. One of you mentioned this. He did not say it was not possible. And I agree with the other post: If a tiny tick can transmit via blood (50,000 ketes) why a transfusion of PINTS??! couldn't hold far greater potential for transmission.
Finally, the microbiologist said the real worry is Babesiosis. That Babs is very easily blood transfusion tranmissable. Many of you know you have Babs yet test negative for it, like I do. There are only 2 or 3 strains detectable through good labs at this time which is why some LLMD's don't even test for it, they just treat.
My take? The blood supply is hopelessly contaminated already. Do not get a transfusion if you can in any way avoid it. Do not get a tranfusion which has come from a hyperendemic area, can one find out?If you have to have blood, get a directed transfusion from someone you believe to be Lyme free. Failing that avenue, get only the serum? or is it the plasma portion of the blood, not whole blood.
Posts: 422 | From Luck home | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
livinlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3773
posted
OMG here we go with relying on those blasted tests which I would not trust my life in the hands of any MD who believes that you diagnose a person based on the tests.. how can they use those tests..
"Diagnosis The diagnosis of Lyme disease is based primarily on clinical findings, and treating patients with early disease solely on the basis of objective signs and a known exposure is often appropriate ( 13 ).
Serologic testing can, however, provide valuable supportive diagnostic information in patients with endemic exposure and objective clinical findings that indicate later-stage disseminated Lyme disease ( 13 ).
When serologic testing is indicated, CDC recommends testing initially with a sensitive first test, either an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) or an indirect fluorescent antibody test, followed by testing with the more specific Western immunoblot (WB) test to corroborate equivocal or positive results obtained with the first test ( 14 ).
Although antibiotic treatment in early localized disease can blunt or abrogate the antibody response, patients with early disseminated or late-stage disease usually have strong serologic reactivity and demonstrate expanded WB immunoglobulin G (IgG) banding patterns to diagnostic B. burgdorferi antigens( 15,16 ).
Antibodies often persist for months or years after successfully treated or untreated infection. Thus, seroreactivity alone cannot be used as a marker of active disease. Neither positive serologic test results nor a history of previous Lyme disease ensures that a person has protective immunity. Repeated infection with B. burgdorferi has been reported ( 17 ).
B. burgdorferi can be cultured from 80% or more of biopsy specimens taken from early erythema migrans lesions ( 18 ). However, the diagnostic usefulness of this procedure is limited because of the need for a special bacteriologic medium (i.e., modified Barbour-Stoenner-Kelly medium) and protracted observation of cultures. Polymerase chain reaction (PCR) has been used to amplify genomic DNA of B. burgdorferi in skin, blood, cerebrospinal fluid, and synovial fluid ( 19,20 ), but PCR has not been standardized for routine diagnosis of Lyme disease.
Thoughts to ponder: What about all those people who were given this blasted disease because grandma and grandpa were bitten (by a tick) and mom and/or dad were born with it and not one of those generations were treated..(of course they wouldn't be, because no one ever ran a test anyway and if they did, the tests are not supposed to be used for diagnosis so therefore they weren't treated because somewhere someone developed thier own thought that these tests (WB AND ELISA) are to be used as a method of diagnosis....)so they remain infected (because supposedly they aren't infected even though they may present all symptoms of LD, due to the fact that some how these tests are being used to DIAGNOSE! ).... moving right along....
Then your parents had you and you had your kids and none of you were treated for it because no one knew this was a threat or could be passsed via birth but how can it not be passed via birth if our parents and their parents may have been bitten and never treated therefore they remain infected, have more children and pass the bacteria to thier offsprong...??
How many people have been born with it and never knew they had it because their body never fought it rather thought the bacteria was part of their body chemistry until it became active (most likely as a result of some form of trauma) and began to attack you immune system.. and now all of the sudden you are so sick and can find no one to understand why!
You know I'm tired of hearing that transmission can only be via a tick bite!!BS I'm tired of hearing that the tests are being used as a basis for diagnosis!BS I'm tired of being tired and no one listens..BS I'm just plain tired of all of it! THE FACT!
-------------------- "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." Posts: 1389 | From who knows, who cares, but somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
livinlyme! Right on the money. I have been wondering about all this myself and I can follow your thoughts like a railroad.
Been wondering if I didn't have Lyme when I had my son. My known Lyme-transmitted bite was from a wildlife refuge area where I walked with my dogs nearly every day before I got pregnant.
My son had/has multiple problems and autism, or Asperger's syndrome. Lyme? Will try to get him tested after I get somewhere with my dad's case:
My dad has Alzheimer's which is Lyme. My uncle has Parkinson's, Lyme? And I think back to my grampa and grandma and see some of the symptoms there too! We know pregnancy and breast milk can transmit, but might there also be a genetic predisposition toward Lyme? Like let's say your family has a tendency to be low in magnesium already? Or tends to be more acidic? Or is it alkaline that the Bb prefer? So you can be born with some ketes and then the way they wreck your body sets you up for what I call the killer bite. Or maybe you're free of the ketes, but the genetic makeup of your system favors Bb infection. If a controlled study could be done this might be proven, but what good would that do?
Posts: 422 | From Luck home | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
caat
Printer-friendly view of this topic