Topic: death could clearly be attributed to excessive salt intake
CaliforniaLyme
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1: Leg Med (Tokyo). 2005 Jan;7(1):47-50. Related Articles, Links
Fatal hypernatremia after using salt as an emetic--report of three autopsy cases.
Turk EE, Schulz F, Koops E, Gehl A, Tsokos M.
Department of Forensic Pathology, Institute of Legal Medicine, University of Hamburg, Butenfeld 34, 22529 Hamburg, Germany. [email protected]
Although a plethora of reports on life-threatening complications of salt emesis has been published since the early 1960s, salt is still used to induce emesis in cases of intoxication in the clinical as well as in the domestic setting. We report three cases of fatal hypernatremia after salt was used as an emetic. All fatalities were subjected to medico-legal autopsy at the Institute of Legal Medicine in Hamburg, Germany. In all cases, symptoms of cerebral damage such as seizures, fever and somnolence developed within hours after salt ingestion. All individuals were admitted to hospital before their deaths. Here, severe hypernatremia (up to 245 mmol/l) was detected, and all patients died under the clinical picture of cerebral edema despite intensive medical treatment. At autopsy, unspecific signs of a central regulatory failure were present. Histology revealed crenated red blood cells and few venous microthrombi in internal organs. Neuropathological investigations yielded no specific results but confirmed fatal cerebral edema and excluded other cerebral causes of death. Viewing the results of clinical and post-mortem investigations together, death could clearly be attributed to excessive salt intake in all cases.
Publication Types: Case Reports
PMID: 15556015 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
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I posted that because of the Salt Protocol because it worries me- !!!! Here is what probably prompted it as an idea- the problem is that salt may kill you as well as Bb!!! *********************** 1: Wien Klin Wochenschr. 1998 Dec 23;110(24):863-5. Related Articles, Links
Growth of infectious and non-infectious B. burgdorferi at different salt concentrations.
Elias A, Bono JL, Tilly K, Rosa P.
Laboratory of Microbial Structure and Function, Rocky Mountain Laboratories, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, NIH, Hamilton, Montana, USA. [email protected]
Borrelia burgdorferi, the causative agent of Lyme disease, grows in vitro in modified Barbour-Stoenner-Kelly (BSK-H) medium. We have studied the effect of increased osmotic strength of culture media on growth of infectious and non-infectious B. burgdorferi strains B31 and N40. Relatively small increases in the NaCl concentration of the medium significantly inhibited growth in infectious as well as non-infectious strains. Growth of low passage, infectious clone B31-4a was more sensitive to increased NaCl concentrations than high passage, non-infectious clone B31-a. Growth of two infectious N40 strains, one low passage (N40-Lp) and one high passage (N40-P31) was more resistant to increased NaCl concentration than growth of infectious B31-4a. Osmotic strength is an important physical parameter for growth of B. burgdorferi in vitro and could influence its ability to adapt and to establish an infection within ticks and mammals.
PMID: 10048166 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Jellybelly
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I tend to agree CL. I think excessive amounts of anything can be dangerous. The salt/C protocol has worried me a bit. Ya know, people have died from drinking to much good old H20.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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There is a reason why sailors die whose ship goes down and are marooned in small boats without drinking water. They are surrounded by salt water, which is not drinkable.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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riversinger
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A lady in our support group just got out of the hospital following severe unremitting diarrhea and stomach pain. She has been on the salt/c protocol for several months.
I suspect that it was not the salt/c alone that did her in, but I do think that it had a major hand. I kept trying to get her to stop, but she couldn't believe it was the problem, because it was "natural."
This protocol worries me, too. Some people do seem to do OK on it. Maybe their kidneys are strong enough to remove the excessive salt. But I have heard too many issues arising from it to think it is completely safe.
posted
I just wanted to add that I suffer from electrolite imbalance espicially low sodium and have been taking sodium chloride tabs for about 2 years now... Although it helped some, I was suffering from dumping too much urine, then retaining too much, Excessive thrist on and off, and low energy.
I switched to Celtic Sea salt about 2 months ago and am taking 1/4 tsp to a liter of water. I have noticed improvement in ALL symptoms and energy picked up quite a bit as well.
I am learning that plain sodium chloride tabs are just highly over processed salt and unhealthy for you....
Celtic is in its natural state containing all the vital minerals your body needs...
Plain Sodium chloride has no health benefit and from my personal experience, I believe can be harmful if taken in too high a dose for the individual...
Posts: 437 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I am on the salt/C protocol--4 grams per day which is not a huge amount, but I do plan to gradually increase. I think the key is to ramp up slowly and drink lots of water.
Amazingly my blood pressure has gone down slightly while on this protocol. I do herx on it and I can't tell if it is making me better, but I'll stick with it for awhile.
Thanks for the warning. Everyone needs to be careful with excessive amounts of almost anything(exception: chocolate) Hiker
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10207 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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Kara Tyson
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Dont forget that you can also die of too little salt.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
perhaps some members of the german lyme discussion group would know about these case(s) i the specific.
Posts: 2708 | Registered: Feb 2005
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riversinger
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Just for the record, the lady who ended up in the hospital was using the recommended, expensive, salt that contains all the minerals, etc. She was very carefully following the instructions on the recommended websites. It was not the kind of salt. It was just not the right thing for her to be doing.
Not all increases in symptoms are herxheimers!
And, BTW, I do use a small amount of salt and potassium in water, as an electrolyte solution. It can definitely have beneficial qualities, especially for those with low blood volume and electrolyte imbalances.
posted
You can drink the salt water, in the ocean, without a problem. I used to surf and drank a ton of it from time to time. But, it dehydrates you, over time, so you need more water, without salt. You need to drink lots of fresh water, if taking lots of salt. I never tried the Salt/C. I considered it, but did not need it to get well. It is a cheap way to go, but maybe 20% might have sever problems and their systems can not process that much salt.It does appear to kill the keetes, but at possibly a high risk to some. My guess is that so much salt causes other minerals like potasium to go out of balance. So if I was doing this protocol I would drink extra water and take other minerial supplements and never get dehydrated. but, what do I know, I have never slept at the Holiday express......or what ever......
Posts: 512 | From Memlo Park, Ca USA | Registered: Sep 2002
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I tried the natural sea salt at 1 gram 3 times daily plus the same amount of Vitamin C but within 5 days my blood pressure had gone from a normal 117/68 to 135/90 or even 138/110 on one occasion.
I was not happy about this so stopped the salt and within 24 hours it was back to my normal level.
It doesn't seem to be commented upon at all on one of the main sites advocating the use of high doses of Salt and Vitamin C.
However we are always told that excessive salt will cause hypertension.
posted
When your well, lots of salt does not raise your BP. It is a symptom of being sick. When I started the MP my BP dropped, and I took lots of salt, now My BP is perfect and still take lots of sea salt and no change in BP. Hypertesion is a symptom of a sickness. Actually if you take the salt for a while, your BP will probably come back down, as your body heals.......
Posts: 512 | From Memlo Park, Ca USA | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Yea, but that goes without saying, too much of anything is bad for you. Most people doing the Salt and C are not using Salt as an emetic.
But then again, you have to analyze what kind of Salt they are using. Most Americans eat about 20g's of salt a day anyway. It's the toxic, processed table salt that they eat, that causes the damage, not pure sodium chloride.
It's also been shown that some chronic cases of Lyme has been due to low mineral levels.
I am also one for long term ABX, but I can generate pages and pages of info on how ABX can have serious side effects.
It all comes down to the patient, and what treatment has the best reward/risk ratio, and what works.
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bpeck
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Semper- if you have ANY data or evidence that the improvements on the salt/C therapy is "killing keets" then I dearly love to see it.
People need to take a 9th grade biology course to understand how the body works before they go off stating that dumping salt into the body (at dosages >15, 20 or more grams) is " killin bugs'.
I have to say though- the last 12 or 13 words of the last sentance of your post is probably true.
Barb
Semper F Wrote: You can drink the salt water, in the ocean, without a problem. I used to surf and drank a ton of it from time to time. But, it dehydrates you, over time, so you need more water, without salt. You need to drink lots of fresh water, if taking lots of salt. I never tried the Salt/C. I considered it, but did not need it to get well. It is a cheap way to go, but maybe 20% might have sever problems and their systems can not process that much salt.It does appear to kill the keetes, but at possibly a high risk to some. My guess is that so much salt causes other minerals like potasium to go out of balance. So if I was doing this protocol I would drink extra water and take other minerial supplements and never get dehydrated. but, what do I know, I have never slept at the Holiday express......or what ever......
-------------------- Barb Peck (Elder LymeNet user). Lyme since 1975 Transfusion Posts: 1882 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by bpeck: Semper- if you have ANY data or evidence that the improvements on the salt/C therapy is "killing keets" then I dearly love to see it.
People need to take a 9th grade biology course to understand how the body works before they go off stating that dumping salt into the body (at dosages >15, 20 or more grams) is " killin bugs'.
I thought that taking seasalt/vitamin C worked together to cause this die off effect by dehydration and increasing elastase. As quoted my Dr K, this was my understanding of it:
------------------------------------------
A. We start with deworming our clients. We often use a simple yet agressive seasalt/Vit C protocol (19) which has an independent effect aginst the spirochetes also. The high salt conmcentration kills large parasites by osmotically induced dehydration (osmotic shock). High salt levels also increase the enzyme elastase which has a strong antimicrobial/anti-spirochete effect (4)
posted
I wonder how many grams of salt the people who died were taking. I think some people go overboard on the salt/C protocol. I read about people taking 22 grams of salt per day and am horrified. I am on the protocol, but I will go no higher than 6-8 grams.
I wish I knew more details about the salt deaths. Were there any other health problems? What was the person's weight? Did they have swelling in their hands or ankles? That would be cue to stop the salt and drink more water!!
So, if any of us are on the salt/C protocol, let's be extra careful. One death from a potential cure is one too many. Lyme steals enough from us as it is. Hiker
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10207 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by hiker53: I wonder how many grams of salt the people who died were taking. I think some people go overboard on the salt/C protocol. I read about people taking 22 grams of salt per day and am horrified. I am on the protocol, but I will go no higher than 6-8 grams.
I wish I knew more details about the salt deaths. Were there any other health problems? What was the person's weight? Did they have swelling in their hands or ankles? That would be cue to stop the salt and drink more water!!
So, if any of us are on the salt/C protocol, let's be extra careful. One death from a potential cure is one too many. Lyme steals enough from us as it is. Hiker
20 grams does sound like a lot. But considering the average American eats that much a day of processed salt laced with chemicals, it's not that shocking.
Again, your body has the ability to balance things out for the most part, and if you are not one of the 5% of Americans who are salt sensitive, taking in 15g's of natural sea salt or pure unprocessed sodium chloride, your body is not going to shut down.
You have to realize this article was talking about inducing vomiting (emesis) by taking very large intoxicating doses of salt. Which of course this will cause issues.
Most people on the Salt/C protocol are not inducing vomiting.
My argument here is, I don't think taking 15g's of natural salt is bad for you, if you moderate it. (If you are of lighter weight, then you would need less of course.)
It's well known that people in early 1900's and before ate 20g's of salt a day, but then again, they were more active and they would sweat it out.
But anyone doing this should be seeing a doctor to monitor things...
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bpeck
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People in the developing countries, and developed countries are dewormed with ivermectin (or praziquantel for tape worm). These are the same drugs used in animals.
A teaspoon of (table) salt weighs about 6 grams. A teaspoon of mineral or sea salt will weigh slightly different because of the minerals.
While it's true the toxicity level for salt is very very high- so it's probably very unlikely people on the Salt/C diet are going to kill themselves by salt toxicity (and it's dehydration that does you in anyway)
The body regulates the balance of the major electrolytes (and sodium chloride is one of the major ones), so it's the claim that a person is able to somehow get the salt consentration high enough either in serum or tissues to 'kill bugs' that I dispute.
I'd like to see any data or any reference to that effect... no ones going to be able to provide that- because it isn't out there.
Barb
CAP wrote: A. We start with deworming our clients. We often use a simple yet agressive seasalt/Vit C protocol (19) which has an independent effect aginst the spirochetes also. The high salt conmcentration kills large parasites by osmotically induced dehydration (osmotic shock). High salt levels also increase the enzyme elastase which has a strong antimicrobial/anti-spirochete effect (4)
-------------------- Barb Peck (Elder LymeNet user). Lyme since 1975 Transfusion Posts: 1882 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by bpeck: People in the developing countries, and developed countries are dewormed with ivermectin (or praziquantel for tape worm). These are the same drugs used in animals.
A teaspoon of (table) salt weighs about 6 grams. A teaspoon of mineral or sea salt will weigh slightly different because of the minerals.
While it's true the toxicity level for salt is very very high- so it's probably very unlikely people on the Salt/C diet are going to kill themselves by salt toxicity (and it's dehydration that does you in anyway)
The body regulates the balance of the major electrolytes (and sodium chloride is one of the major ones), so it's the claim that a person is able to somehow get the salt concentration high enough either in serum or tissues to 'kill bugs' that I dispute.
I'd like to see any data or any reference to that effect... no ones going to be able to provide that- because it isn't out there.
Barb (4)
Very good points. I don't know how something like this would work exactly, but I know that people swear by it so far, and I am one of them.
I moved out on the west coast where there are no LLMD's. Basically I went downhill since I developed leaky gut from ABX, and my naturopath was limited by the amount of ABX she could give me anyway. Overall, it was to the point where I had to be taken off ABX
When I relapsed, so did a lot of other things. For one, I ended up with low levels of vitamins, minerals and good cholesterol.
Years ago, when I was seeing Dr. S in PA, he got my load down pretty far. And at the same time, my vitamin levels returned to normal. This was before I moved to the west coast.
It's only when I relapsed in the west coast, is when things bottomed out.
What I believe, (as well as other doctors and people will back this up.) is that Lyme and other chronic infections drain the minerals and vitamins right out of you.
Taking sodium chloride may change the bodies 'terrain' to simply replenish low stores, thus causing a bad habitat for Lyme and other parasites, so there may be an indirect action here.
Also, it's a pure fact, that normal vitamin E and B levels, may still mean the patient is low! Levels in blood may be different than cell levels. So you can be sick from low vitamin B levels, and still have a normal test.
We know that parasites are known to change the body to suit their needs, not always 'testable'.
I know before I was on ABX, and after I was taken off them, both times I had 'salt cravings'. Now since I am close to where I was when I was on ABX, I no longer have salt cravings.
Also my NK count has gone from 17 to 52 while on 20g's Salt and C per day.
I have a way to go (days are prolly in the 85% range now), but my mind is finally sharp and my energy levels are higher. When I hit my 'high' stage while seeing Dr. S, I was in about the 90% range. So far, the Salt/C seems to be getting me close to ABX range.
Other than that, I don't know much more about it. I wish GiGi was here to chime in, she knows a lot more about the protocol that I could ever add.
For me the jury is still out for a cure for me. It took two years of heavy ABX to get my one foot out of the grave, back to a near normal life.
I have only been on the Salt and C for 5 months now. So I am not assuming things will get perfect overnight.
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bpeck
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As I said previously, I am not doubting that you feel better taking salt/C.
I am disputing that you feel better because somehow it's killing "bugs'.
I contend the improvements are from other mechanisms - mainly balancing the electrolytes which normalizes fluid levels and other elements. If the C dose is high enough (> 6g) it's antioxidant properties could even account for some symptom releif.
Most people who's electrolytes are out of proper balance, fluid levels are screwed up, or micro minerals out of balance, or when they have poor water apsorption (in one end out the other) don't know it, and this condition can cause several symptoms that can be confused with other things..
And I'll have no problem admitting I'm wrong and eating a big plate of crow if the data comes forth that I'm wrong about the way the body regulates sodium chloride.
Let's see some data on oral salt raising the salt levels in the body enough to kill pathogens.
Barb
PS - I'm editing to add: Salt is sodium Chloride (NaCl) which is about 60% Chloride (Cl), 40% Sodium (Na) by weight. An adult needs to ingest about 1 to 2 teaspoons of salt aday just for body MAINTENANCE. Much much more is needed if you're an athlete. So when people say " I'm up to taking 6g of salt" I'm scratching my head thinking Huh? That's theraputic?"
Also- be carefull with ingredients on processed foods- if it says "sodium content" they mean just that - it's ONLY sodium (Na), without the chloride (Cl)molecule attached - and that's different from "salt" which is Sodium chloride (NaCl).
Plus- you'd be surprised how many people drink coffe, tea, beer and soda, and do not drink enough water. The good thing about the Salt/C thing is it has people eating mainly the maintenance level NaCl AND drinking enough water with it.
Oh and CAP- salt is the ONLY mineral the body (animals and humans) will crave. If you had salt cravings- that was your first hint of an imbalance, and you weren't getting enough in the first place.
-------------------- Barb Peck (Elder LymeNet user). Lyme since 1975 Transfusion Posts: 1882 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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oxygenbabe
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I agree w/ Barb. I've been following the lymestragegies list, trying to cherrypick the "objective" reports...its hard, as there is subjectivity, hope, and a kind of cult aspect...
Absolutely no way osmotic shock is involved, sorry folks. Nobody can convince me that with the body's strict regulatory mechanisms you can enough salt into the tissues to kill bugs.
And if that worked a generally crappy high salt diet would do just fine.
Maybe elastase, but...somebody has to do more than speculate to convince me of that.
But why wouldn' tit help POTS, NMH, high cortisol--all these could be affected through simple mechanisms. And maybe that amount of salt and c, plus lots of fluid (you get thirsty) could help fix up the gut where, after all, a lot of problems are anyway. Dysbiosis etc.
The only thing I keep trying to ask but nobody picks up on it is the chloride/acid aspect. Since magnesium chloride is anti infective, maybe chloride plus an acid, int his case sodium chloride and ascorbic acid, releases some kind of free radical that is useful in infections.
I've said it a few times...I suspect maybe someday someone will figure that out...
The othe rthing is that those who do well on salt/c, most have had abx. Maybe they killed their lyme and were left with gut infectiosn and candida, who knows.
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CaliforniaLyme
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I am going to post something I have learned that is very disturbing on a new thread-
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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