CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I learned this when reading up on salt in pubmed. THIS is deeply deeply disturbing to me because anyone who set up that page advocating this therapy MUST know this but does not mention it at the site- BUT in relation to Lyme in particular it is OMINOUS and to me, yes, I know I may sound histrionic, but deeply sinister.
Salt poisoning has been extensively and repeatedly documented in connection with Munchausens Syndrome by Proxy. Researching salt on pubmed turned this up- I didn't know it before and I would never have considered this threapy when my daughter was ill anyway because it is scientifically unsound in my opinion- BUT I really do believe that that page was set up to seriously screw with Lyme patients. There are dozens of citations on pubmed connecting salt poisoning to Munchausens. This is very very very damaging to anyone who would possibly try this protocol with a Lyme-infected child. Children have been taken away from parents for getitng treated for Lyme ALREADY_ but to use SALT- jesus- I hope no one is doing this. This is just a set-up for any parent gullible enough to try it- a set-up to have their kid taken away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SALT has been found in MANY FATAL CHILD ABUSE CASES and is EXTENSIVELY DOCUMENTED AS SUCH.
Covert video recordings of life-threatening child abuse: lessons for child protection DP Southall, MCB Plunkett, MW Banks, AF Falkov, MP … - Pediatrics, 1997 - pediatrics.aappublications.org ... The first child's death was found to be caused by salt poisoning. Case 36 This 14-month-old child did not have an ALTE or demonstrate any abuse during the ... Cited by 68 - Web Search - pediatrics.org - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov - all 6 versions �
Salt poisoning: presenting symptom of child abuse K Feldman, WO Robertson - Vet Hum Toxicol, 1979 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov Salt poisoning: presenting symptom of child abuse. Feldman K, Robertson WO. We have described two young children with severe hypernatremia ... Cited by 5 - Web Search
Intentional poisoning of children—an overlooked category of child abuse: report of seven cases and … MS Dine, ME McGovern - Pediatrics, 1982 - pediatrics.org ... cause of abuse reported is excessive salt ingestion with ... In 30% of the cases, poisoning persists even after ... Child abuse by battering is associated in 20% of ... Cited by 11 - Web Search - pediatrics.aappublications.org - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The management of extreme hypernatraemia secondary to salt poisoning in an infant O Paut, N Andre, P Fabre, P Sobraques, G Drouet, J … - Paediatr Anaesth, 1999 - blackwell-synergy.com ... useful (2). symptom of child abuse. Vet Hum Toxicol 1979; 21: 341–343. 4 Finberg L, Kiley J, Luttrell CN. Mass accidental salt poisoning ... Cited by 6 - Web Search - ingentaconnect.com - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Fatal hypernatremic dehydration in exclusively breast-fed newborn infants due to maternal lactation … JA Kaplan, RW Siegler, GA Schmunk - Am J Forensic Med Pathol, 1998 - amjforensicmedicine.com ... Of forensic interest, hypernatremic dehydration may rarely occur in infants with forced ingestion of salt as in child abuse (13), accidental poisoning in a ... Cited by 13 - Web Search - amjforensicmedicine.com - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
[BOOK] Beyond Blame: Child Abuse Tragedies Revisited P Reder, S Duncan, M Gray - 1993 - print.google.com ... families 171 A.33 Genogram of Charlene Salt's family 172 ... 176 Figures and tables ix Tables 2. 1 The evolution of ‘child abuse' 83. 1 ... Cited by 53 - Web Search - Library Search
Munchausen syndrome by proxy and intra-alveolar haemosiderin CM Milroy - International Journal of Legal Medicine, 1999 - springerlink.com ... 14.Meadow R (1993) Non-accidental salt poisoning. ... Meadow R (1998) Munchausen syndrome by proxy abuse per- petrated ... Arch Dis Child 1998 78:210–216 18.Becroft ... Cited by 7 - Web Search - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Non-accidental salt poisoning R Meadow - Arch Dis Child, 1993 - adc.bmjjournals.com ... Department of Paediatrics and Child Health, St ... illness, drug ingestion, physical abuse, or failure ... lead to earlier detection of salt poisoning; the importance ... Cited by 9 - Web Search - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Dehydration deaths in infants and young children FJ Whitehead, RT Couper, L Moore, AJ Bourne, RW … - Am J Forensic Med Pathol, 1996 - amjforensicmedicine.com ... 17. Feldman K, Robertson WO. Salt poisoning: presenting symptom of child abuse. Vet Hum Toxicol 1979;21:341-3 ... Cited by 11 - Web Search - amjforensicmedicine.com - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Clinical and toxicological findings in two young siblings and autopsy findings in one sibling with … JL Valentine, S Schexnayder, JG Jones, WQ Sturner - Am J Forensic Med Pathol, 1997 - amjforensicmedicine.com ... Acta Paediatr 1994:83;119-21. [Context Link]. 23. Meadow R. Non-accidental salt poisoning. Arch Dis Child 1993;68:448-52. ... Child Abuse Negl 1985;9:349-52. ... Cited by 7 - Web Search - amjforensicmedicine.com - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov PMID: 4004312 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Baugh JR, Krug EF, Weir MR. Related Articles, Links Punishment by salt poisoning. South Med J. 1983 Apr;76(4):540-1. PMID: 6836377 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Dine MS, McGovern ME. Related Articles, Links Intentional poisoning of children--an overlooked category of child abuse: report of seven cases and review of the literature. Pediatrics. 1982 Jul;70(1):32-5. PMID: 7088630 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Chesney RW, Brusilow S. Related Articles, Links Extreme hypernatremia as a presenting sign of child abuse and psychosocial dwarfism. Johns Hopkins Med J. 1981 Jan;148(1):11-3. PMID: 7453004 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Feldman K, Robertson WO. Related Articles, Links Salt poisoning: presenting symptom of child abuse. Vet Hum Toxicol. 1979 Oct;21(5):341-3. PMID: 516363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: BMJ. 2003 Jan 18;326(7381):157-60. Related Articles, Links
Erratum in: BMJ. 2003 Aug 23;327(7412):422. BMJ. 2003 Mar 1;326(7387):497.
Distinguishing between salt poisoning and hypernatraemic dehydration in children.
Coulthard MG, Haycock GB.
Department of Paediatric Nephrology, Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 4LP, Guy's, King's, and St Thomas's School of Medicine, London SE1 9RT. [email protected]
Publication Types: Case Reports Review Review, Tutorial
Dyer C. Related Articles, Links Mother found guilty in case of fabricated illness. BMJ. 2005 Mar 5;330(7490):497. No abstract available. PMID: 15746116 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Meadow R. Related Articles, Links Non-accidental salt poisoning. Arch Dis Child. 1993 Apr;68(4):448-52. PMID: 8503665 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Nicol AR, Eccles M. Related Articles, Links Psychotherapy for Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Arch Dis Child. 1985 Apr;60(4):344-8. PMID: 4004312 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Meadow R. Related Articles, Links Munchausen syndrome by proxy. The hinterland of child abuse. Lancet. 1977 Aug 13;2(8033):343-5. PMID: 69945 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
There is an electrolyte imbalance...for sure!
Mg dives, Ca and K go up (initially)...Na is impacted (Na-K pump).
Very tricky.
That said...is this an alternative? SAFER???
"Natural HMG CoA reductase inhibitor
Tower HeartTechnology - Nature's Perfect Statin� Tower HeartTechnology is a PAULING THERAPY nutritional drink mix and a natural Lp(a) Binding Inhibitor and a natural HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibitor (statin). Each serving combines 3000 mg vitamin C, 2800 mg lysine, with proline, arginine, Vitamins E, A, B6, folic acid and stevia. 30 servings per jar. 1 Jar monthly provides Linus Pauling's preventive dose while 2 Jars monthly provides his therapeutic recommendation. Shipping extra. Overseas add Global Priority mail. Price: $49.95"
Mg and Benicar inhibit HMG CoA reductase too. This blocks the cholesterol pathway which IS the pathway we KNOW Bb takes. This seems to release NO which in turn RELEASES acetylcholine. But low Mg inhibits NO release.
IMO, Mg is the safest way to go, but other routes exist...including ozone saunas which also look to release NO.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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dontlikeliver
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4749
posted
That's a good point, I have read recently in the paper about a Munchausen's case where the mother apprently poisoned the child with salt.
I am not at all interested in doing the VitC/Salt protocol, but I have looked at the site a few times, and those who run it seem to be very elusive. Why? That makes me a bit suspicious, not exactly a good way, in my opinion, 'to make a sale' of their ideas.
DLL
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Some of the Lyme doctors I have seen present have had patients improve with the Salt/C approach. It is important to remember that there are different types of salt, and they are not suggesting using table salt.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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SForsgren
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Member # 7686
posted
Some of the Lyme doctors I have seen present have had patients improve with the Salt/C approach. It is important to remember that there are different types of salt, and they are not suggesting using table salt.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
The slat/C protocol on yahoo called Lyme Strategies is not elusive at all. The guy who runs it answers questions regularly and the protocol is all laid out for you even with a diclaimer that he is not a doctor etc. etc.
I think the salt/C protocol is safer for adults than children, because adults can more easily monitot their water intake than infants or small kids.
By the way the deaths reported here on lymenet from salt were death caused by a high intake of salt used to cause the person to vomit(emetic), not to kill the lyme germs. That would have to be an extremely high dose of salt more than most people take on the salt/C protocol. Hiker
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10193 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
Only one case report was of salt as an emetic in 3 deaths!!! Others were not of salt as an emetic-
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
If they are going after parents who are treating lyme with antibiotics, when it is a bacterial infection, something alternative like salt/vitamin c is definitely a red flag.
I have noticed that divorced, single women or those with non-involved, non-committed husbands are more likely to be accused of munchausen. Anything alternative in treatment is going to be questioned by those who are trying to find munchausen cases, especially if the child is feeling bad during treatment (a given if they have lyme and during herxes).
This is a useful warning by Cal lyme.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Munchausen's syndrome by proxy is surely depraved. So, too, is the growing popularity of this accusation as a means of coercion. Here are two recent reports of such false accusations concerning pseudotumor cerebri:
Note, especially, that being unusually informed about your child's disease may be interpreted as evidence of Munchausen. Devotion to your child is not considered a hallmark of a loving parent, but rather of a warped one.
Sophistry this transparent invites speculations into the character of physicians, individually and collectively.
And many of you already know of this paper, but it's worth citing again.
If you are a parent of a child ill with Lyme (or some other marginalized disease) then prepare for such accusations ahead of time.
Posts: 45 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Lyddie
Unregistered
posted
These accusations will only increase. A salt protocol should be absolutely out of the question for kids, if you want to keep them. Even antibiotics may be suspect. Just seeking care for a complex medical case can bring trouble.
It happened to me last year, just because, in the MD's eyes, there was no definitive (in their eyes) diagnosis for my child's many, and varied symptoms. And she had a positive Lyme test! (and high ANA, other things)
To avoid this hell for your family, make sure you get all records for every medical encounter, test, lab etc. Having these saved me, along with good realtionships with the school, and with doctors who know us. Also, my 3 kids are obviously thriving (they wowed the investigator) and our family is well-known (in our small town) as examplary in every way.
I no longer bring records or history with me to appts. I get our PCP to do a letter, and if it doesn't get there, then it is better to have no information on the case for the new doctor, than for me to present it. I play dumb in general, and try not to ask too many questions.
I don't confide in any MD's, because everything goes on the record, often in surprising ways. (I was described as bipolar on my child's record, becasue of a transcription error, in which staff misread the word "error" as mom, in script. This was on al of her record for years, without my knowing!
My child's health suffered greatly from the months of trouble we had, which was the worst part. It's not like I could seek medical help for her during the investigation.
This is the next step in the Lyme wars, folks. Persecution of doctors will be followed by lots of persecution of parents of Lyme kids. Be careful!
p.s. in our case, the hsopital staff made a medical error that almost killed my daughter, which they did not record. This put me in even more grave danger of being reported, since they needed to discredit me. I got an admission in writing of this error from patient relations, at the hospital. We're still not sure why this admission slipped by their lawyer.
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
There is a great site called MAMA- Mothers Against Munchausens Accusations run by a woman whose son died when taken out of her custody on a false Munchausens charge- great site!!! http://www.msbp.com/
Yes, it is something parents of Lyme children need to be careful about- wish it wasn't so-!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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livinlyme
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Member # 3773
posted
Somehow I wish there was some regulation of the Internet for this reason alone... it is so sad that some people can be tricked into believing that this would in fact cure someone.. I know as a fact no one in my family would think of using this protocol for the mere fact that heart conditions run in our history.. sodium is the worse thing when heart is concerned....
-------------------- "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." Posts: 1389 | From who knows, who cares, but somewhere over the rainbow | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I have been on the salt/C protocal for 6 months and this is the best I have felt in years. I have had lyme for over 50 years and was finally dx in 1989. I was so bad in 91 I almost had to quit work. How I made it through that time, I don't know.
I have had the herx's with the salt/c. But the main thing that you have to look at that long term lyme may not only be bacterial, but a parasite as well. That is what is what the salt/c is all about. That we get a nematode from the tick gut. Willie B. found nematodes in the tick gut as well as the bacteria.
Yes I have had the nematodes come out. I have so much energy that I can hardly believe it and I don't hurt very much at all.
This is working for alot of people. So keep an open mind. I find that I have a very hard time with modern medicines. They make me sicker than when I started out. So I will try alternative medicines now before I will take a drug px by a Doctor. Which has been hyped to them by a drug rep with a lunch or dinner.
Just my two cwnts worth.
Keep an open mind.
Posts: 1 | From wisconsin | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
It is not us that have the closed minds, but the people who are beating the bushes for munchausen cases. Anyone who is treating a child longterm for a chronic case might find themselves being questioned, and even more likely if it is an alternative treatment like salt/C.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Closed minds = opinions nothing else unless its being tested by scientists and then depending who ther working for.
People are aloud opinions whether right or wrong
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
THANK YOU for sharing your research on this topic. I found the salt/Vit C information early in my illness and wanted to try it. I consulted with my LLMD who just said, "let's not throw too much at your body at once". Disappointed as I was (3 day cure sounded great to me at that time), he is the expert and I am paying him too much to risk wrecking his program by venturing off on my own. Also, since I have always tried to maintain a "low salt" diet for general good health, the thought of ingesting large quantities of salt daily just seemed wrong. Now you have given solid evidence that it is indeed wrong. My recommendation to everyone is get a Lyme Literate doctor you trust and allow him to use his knowledge in bringing about your recovery from this awful disease. I don't try anything without running it by him first.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I agree with scott - The salt that is used in the salt/c protocal is not the table salt we are all used to.
I have tested stong energenically on this protocal but only at the volume of 4 to 5 grams per day. I do use it on periods off ABX and have gotten some good results. It also helpd some parisite issues.
Posts: 582 | From milwaukee wi | Registered: May 2005
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