LymeNet Flash: Lyme or not? IGG Bands 41 and 58

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»	LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Lyme or not? IGG Bands 41 and 58

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Topic: Lyme or not? IGG Bands 41 and 58

mtgebrkr
Member
Member # 7631

posted

My husband has had joint pain in his calf for about 3 yrs. He now has pain in the some tendons in is hands. He does physically active work feels great, no fevers etc. no other symptoms. IGG Western Blot Bands 41 and 58 reactive on Quest test. Going to do another with Igenex or MDL.
I have Lyme, Bart and Babs,for along time, so we know the symptoms, but he only has these and a family member who was recently diagnosed with Rheumatoid arthritis. Going to see Arthritis specialist who supposedly is LLMD in Danbury CT, a Dr. G.

Posts: 38 | From New York | Registered: Jul 2005 | IP: Logged |

Lymetoo
Moderator
Member # 743

posted

For Quest, that's probably a "good score"....since most tests by them show little of nothing.

Band 41 is the most common borreliosis antibody
Band 58 is heat shock protein

Western Blot explanation:
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022767.html

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged |

mtgebrkr
Member
Member # 7631

posted

I read all about the bands, but 41 is not specific, just indicates that there is a flagella. I read that 41 can also be gingivitus, and other flagella infections. Question is what specific bacteria have a flagella? 1,5, 50?
Did some research and found nothing.
Band 58 - same thing. My husband gets cut all the time. He also tried doxycycline for 30 days and saw no improvement or worsening of symptoms.

Posts: 38 | From New York | Registered: Jul 2005 | IP: Logged |

Boomerang
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7979

posted

I don't understand band 41 either......what is the flagella?

Band 31 is specific for Lyme, right?

Posts: 1366 | From Southeast | Registered: Sep 2005 | IP: Logged |

treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Boomerang:
I don't understand band 41 either......what is the flagella?

Band 31 is specific for Lyme, right?

II. THE PROKARYOTIC CELL: BACTERIA

B. PROKARYOTIC CELL STRUCTURE

4. STRUCTURES LOCATED OUTSIDE THE CELL WALL

b. Flagella

The overall purpose of this Learning Object is:
1) to learn the chemical makeup and functions associated with bacterial flagella;
2) to learn how bacterial use motility and taxis to respond to their environment;
3) to introduce the relationship between components of bacterial flagella and body defenses; and
4) to introduce the relationship between bacteriality motility and chemotaxis and pathogenicity.

LEARNING OBJECTIVES FOR THIS SECTION

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this section on Prokaryotic Cell Structure we are looking at the various organelles or structures that make up a bacterium. As mentioned in the introduction to this section, a typical bacterium usually consists of:

a cytoplasmic membrane surrounded by a peptidoglycan cell wall and maybe an outer membrane;

a fluid cytoplasm containing a nuclear region (nucleoid) and numerous ribosomes; and

often various external structures like a glycocalyx, flagella, and pili.

Structures located outside the cell wall of bacteria include the glycocalyx (capsule), flagella, and pili. We will now look at bacterial flagella.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flagella (def)

composition: A bacterial flagellum has 3 basic parts: a filament, a hook, and a basal body.

1) The filament is the rigid, helical structure that extends from the cell surface. It is composed of the protein flagellin arranged in helical chains so as to form a hollow core. During synthesis of the flagellar filament, flagellin molecules coming off of the ribosomes are thought to be transported through the hollow core of the filament where they attach to the growing tip of the filament causing it to lengthen. With the exception of a few bacteria such as Bdellovibrio and Vibrio cholerae, the flagellar filament is not surrounded by a sheath

2) The hook is a flexible coupling between the filament and the basal body .

3) The basal body consists of a rod and a series of rings that anchor the flagellum to the cell wall and the cytoplasmic membrane .Unlike eukaryotic flagella, the bacterial flagellum has no internal fibrils and does not flex. Instead, the basal body acts as a molecular motor, enabling the flagellum to rotate and propell the bacterium through the surrounding fluid. In fact, the flagellar motor rotates very rapidly. (The motor of E. coli rotates 270 revolutions per second!)

Bacteria flagella are 10-20 �m long and between 0.01 and 0.02 �m in diameter and come in a number of distinct arrangements:

flagellar arrangements

1. monotrichous: a single flagellum, usually at one pole

2. amphitrichous: a single flagellum at both ends of the organism

3. lophotrichous: two or more flagella at one or both poles

4. peritrichous: flagella over the entire surface

5. axial filaments: internal flagella found only in the spirochetes. Axial filaments are composed of from two to over a hundred axial fibrils (or endoflagella) that extend from both ends of the bacterium between the outer membrane and the cell wall, often overlapping in the center of the cell. A popular theory as to the mechanism behind spirochete motility presumes that as the endoflagella rotate in the periplasmic space between the cytoplasmic membrane and the cell wall, this could cause the corkscrew-shaped outer membrane of the spirochete to rotate and propell the bacterium through the surrounding fluid.

function: Flagella are the organelles of locomotion for most of the bacteria that are capable of motility. Two proteins in the flagellar motor, called MotA and MotB, form a proton channel through the cytoplasmic membrane and rotation of the flagellum is driven by a proton gradient. This driving proton motive force (def) occurs as protons accumulating in the space between the cytoplasmic membrane and the cell wall as a result of the electron transport system travel through the channel back into the bacterium's cytoplasm.

The bacterial flagellum can rotate both counterclockwise and clockwise. This is controlled by a protein switch in the molecular motor of the basal body. Clockwise rotation results in a tumbling motion and changes the direction of bacterial movement. On the other hand, counterclockwise rotation leads to long, straight or curved runs without a change in direction. During a run, that lasts about one second, the bacterium moves 10 - 20 times its length before it stops. In the case of a tumble, the movement lasts only about one-tenth of a second and no real forward progress is made.

To view an animation of bacterial motility, see the CELLS ALIVE web page.

To view videos showing motile bacteria, see The Microbiology Video Library.

Around half of all known bacteria are motile. Motility serves to keep bacteria in an optimum environment via taxis (def). Taxis is a motile response to an environmental stimulus. Bacteria can respond to chemicals (chemotaxis), light (phototaxis), osmotic pressure (osmotaxis), oxygen (aerotaxis), and temperature (thermotaxis).

Chemotaxis is a response to a chemical gradient of attractant or a repellent molecules in the bacterium's environment. In an environment that lacks such a gradient, the bacterium moves randomly. It travels in a straight line, or runs, for a few seconds, then stops, tumbles, and runs in a different direction. However, when the bacterium is exposed to a chemical gradient of, for example, an attractant, it tumbles less frequently (has longer runs) as it moves up the gradient, but tumbles at the normal rate if it travels down the gradient. In this way, the net movement is towards a more optimum environment.

Chemotaxis is regulated by chemoreceptors located in the cytoplasmic membrane or periplasm of the bacterium bind chemical attractants or repellents. This leads to either the methylation or demethylation of methyl-accepting chemotaxis proteins (MCPs) that in turn, eventually trigger either a counterclockwise or clockwise rotation of the flagellum. For example, if the concentration of an attractant (def) stays the same or decreases, the MCPs become demethylated and this eventually leads to a clockwise rotation of the flagellum. In the case of E. coli, when an attractant molecule is not bound to an MCP, ATP can donate a phosphate to a protein called CheA that, in turn donates the phoshate to another protein called CheY. The phosphorylated CheY then interacts with a switch protein called FliM at the base of the flagellum promoting clockwise rotation and tumbling. When attractant are bound to the MCPs, CheA molecules become dephosphorylated and the CheY molecules are unable to interact with the switch proteins and throw the switch. This leads to counterclockwise flagellar rotation and swimming in a run.

Therefore, an increasing concentration of attractant or decreasing concentration of repellent (def) (both conditions beneficial) causes less tumbling and longer runs; a decreasing concentration of attractant or increasing concentration of repellent (both conditions harmful) causes normal tumbling and a greater chance of reorienting in a "better" direction. As a result, the organism's net movement is toward the optimum environment (see Fig. 7). For additional information on movement and chemotaxis see John Brown's Bugs in the News web page at the University of Kansas.

Motility and chemotaxis probably help some intestinal pathogens to move through the mucous layer so they can attach to the epithelial cells of the mucous membranes. They also enable spirochetes to move through viscous environments and penetrate cell membranes. This will be discussed in more detail under Bacterial Pathogenesis later in this unit.

Examples of bacteria that use motility to help colonize the body include Treponema pallidum (inf), Leptospira (inf), and Borrelia burgdorferi ) (inf). Flagella may also enable Helicobacter pylori (inf) to penetrate the mucous covering in the stomach and thus colonize the gastric mucosa.
From
Flagella

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1: J Infect Dis. 1993 Feb;167(2):392-400. Related Articles, Links

Comment in:
J Infect Dis. 1993 Oct;168(4):1073.

Western blotting in the serodiagnosis of Lyme disease.

Dressler F, Whalen JA, Reinhardt BN, Steere AC.

Division of Rheumatology/Immunology, Tufts University School of Medicine, New England Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts 02111.

There are currently no accepted criteria for positive Western blots in Lyme disease. In a retrospective analysis of 225 case and control subjects, the best discriminatory ability of test criteria was obtained by requiring at least 2 of the 8 most common IgM bands in early disease (18, 21, 28, 37, 41, 45, 58, and 93 kDa) and by requiring at least 5 of the 10 most frequent IgG bands after the first weeks of infection (18, 21, 28, 30, 39, 41, 45, 58, 66, and 93 kDa). When these definitions were tested in a prospective study of all 237 patients seen in a diagnostic Lyme disease clinic during a 1-year period and in 74 patients with erythema migrans or summer flu-like illnesses, the IgM blot in early disease had a sensitivity of 32% and a specificity of 100%; the IgG blot after the first weeks of infection had a sensitivity of 83% and a specificity of 95%. Among patients with indeterminate IgG responses by ELISA, 6 of 9 patients with active Lyme disease had positive blots compared with 2 of 34 patients with other illnesses (P < .001). Thus, Western blotting can be used to increase the specificity of serologic testing in Lyme disease.
From
Western blotting in the serodiagnosis of Lyme disease?

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41:= Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria have flagella. This is the most common borreliosis antibody.

58:= Heat shock protein.This helps the bacteria survive fever.

Borrelia burgdorferi, like the human pathogen Treponema pallidum, is a spirochete. Spirochetes are a group of phylogenetically-distinct bacteria that have a unique mode of motility by means of axial filaments (endoflagella). Spirochetes are widespread in viscous environments and they are found in the intestinal tracts of animals and the oral cavity of humans. The spirochetes have a unique cell surface which accompanies their unique type of motility. The endoflagella are contained within the periplasmic space between a semi rigid peptidoglycan helix and a multi-layer, flexible outer membrane sheath. When the filaments rotate within this space, the spirochetes move in cork-screw fashion. This type of movement may be an adaptation to viscous environments such as aquatic sediments, biofilms, mucosal tissues and the intestinal tracts of animals. For pathogens, this allows the spirochetes to hide their flagella, which are normally antigenic, from the host immune defenses.

You see the line that runs a long the spirochete thats the flagella.

The purpose of flagella is motility. Flagella are long appendages which rotate by means of a "motor" located just under the cytoplasmic membrane. Bacteria may have one, a few, or many flagella in different positions on the cell.

Many bacteria have flagella and some have whats called cilium or undulipodium, is completely different from the prokaryote flagella in structure and in evolutionary origin.
Read this
Flagellum

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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Posts: 10564 | From PA Where the Creeks are Red | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |

treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117

posted

I would still get a western Blot from Igenex and a LDA 3 day urine test do the Lyme DOT-BLOT Assay (LDA while on a weeks worth of high abx treatment to free up antigens.
But remember Lyme should be a clinical diagnosis.
Symptoms and results of tests not just tests.

[ 31. October 2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

Posts: 10564 | From PA Where the Creeks are Red | Registered: Jun 2003 | IP: Logged |

Susan in G'ville
Member
Member # 8185

posted

I also had the same results on the IGG Western Blot (Bands 41 and 58 only) and that was w/LabCorps, but I also have enough clinical history to confirm LD infection . (Seems that results on only those 2 bands doesn't "officially" mean a "positive" result. The "interpretation" on the report says "negative". I also have a family member (mother) who was diagnosd w/Rheumatoid arthritis. I've often suspected that she has LD, too, and that RA is just a misdiagnosis.

Hard to tell with all this, isn't it? I'd guess that atheletes show fewer symptoms of LD. Good luck, Susan

Posts: 23 | From Gainesville, FL | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged |

Susan in G'ville
Member
Member # 8185

posted

Posts: 23 | From Gainesville, FL | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged |

Aligondo Bruce
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 6219

posted

there are some people who believe that most, but not all IgG WB's that are only positive for 41kDa band represent late-stage "burn out" infection of Bb.

unless your husband has neurosyphillis.

note: "we believe in most cases that the disease simply burns itself out"...eugene shapiro

"oral treponemes" is propaganda. an assumption based on almost nothing.

this is exactly why the fikrig fla epitope test, patented by yale, has never seen the light of day. it is this test, I believe, that Dr. Phillips was referring to in his letter posted earlier.

fikrig, berland, and flavell at yale patented a test which can diagnose lyme infection based only on the ab response to the "ubiquitous" 41Kda protein. they isolated an "epitope", which is a unique portion of the protein not possessed by other bacteria (ie syphillis, oral treps, etc.) and evaluate ab response to this section of the full protein on WB.

since the 41 kDA flagellin protein is the most consistently expressed protein by Bb throughout infection, this technique should be a powerful method of detecting Bb infection in almost all cases (exception:when the immune system is screwed up very badly). and in fact in limited studies, this has been shown: this test by fikrig et al hit 17 of 18 times in their published study...a similar study published by abbot laboratories scientist hit on 35 of 37 serum samples, and had zero false positives. these are far better results than steere's foolish and horribly inaccurate criteria.

you basically cannot have a false positive with this test.

the reason this test is not available commercially is, I suspect, that behind the scenes these scientists discovered the truth about lyme disease...that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of americans likely are infected with late stage disease. the results might even point to alternate modes of infection, such as sexual or insect borne (note: birds can be effective hosts of the spirochete). a public health disaster, probably caused by the US government's release from plum island, and EIS' bungling of the "discovery" phase.

thus we have been given CFS and fibromyalgia.
most of these are late-stage lyme.
and pharmaceutical companies, notably SKB, have made billions off of SSRI sales to neuropsych patients. that's why they *hate* fallon, because he threatens to reveal the truth.

and a person like nick harris represents a very significant threat, because there is really nothing stopping harris from secretely developing his own version of this test, and using it to develop an accurate picture of the situation.

that's why klempner and the CDC are constantly working to smear nick harris, because they need to discredit him at every opportunity.

Harris would never publicly admit to this, but I would be shocked if he hadn't already done what I outlined above. As a scientist, and a very angry man, surely he would be curious.

BTW....

has anyone seen a systematic study of oral treponeme ab response on WB as compared to LD, etc.?, anywhere in the science literature?

Posts: 523 | From Stillwater,OK,USA | Registered: Sep 2004 | IP: Logged |

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