posted
Does anyone know about how the Bowen results work. I have a friend who has had Lymes for 10 years and is very sick. Her results were positive, and were 1:16 dilution. My results were 1:128 (the highest)and I have had mild symptoms since June 2005 only. I have also been diagnosed with MS (lesions on brain and spine, as well as demylinazation in spinal fluid) I am beginning to wonder if my positive results are from possibly having MS not Lymes. I also have reactivated Mono (epstein barr)which is linked to MS as well. I am nervous that I am treating myself for Lymes (LLMD says Lymes) when I really do have MS according to two Neurologists. The antibiotic treatment is difficult on my stomach and now I am also on Valtrex for the mono. Both drugs are extremely hard on my stomach and yeast issues. Thanks for any input from anyone.
Posts: 7 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2005
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SForsgren
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The dilution really doesn't mean much. It could be that your infection is deeper in the tissues and thus less in the blood where your friend has it more in the blood where the Bowen test can find it. If you have Bb, you have it. The Bowen test is accurate. However, I acknowledge it is debated more than IGenex for example. Have you had other Lyme tests done?
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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JimBoB
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posted
I too have heard that the Bowen test is accurate. As a matter of fact I have read that it is the MOST accurate test out there, along with the Phillip-Mattman test. However, I don't know HOW to get a Phillip-Mattman test.
I am TRYING to get my doctor to give me the Bowen test, but so far he keeps stalling, trying to find excuses to postpone it. I keep getting brushed off by his nurses when I call in to see what progress is being made on that front.
After studying Lyme Literature for 4 years, it is my belief that MS IS Lyme Disease. The bacteria attacks and creates the lesions. From your description of the "MS" lesions to Epstein Barr I would not say you have a light case of lyme. Lymies frequently have raised EBV titers, last year mine was full blown Mono it was so high. Comparing yourself to a friend seems to be diminishing your interpretation on your own symptoms possibly?
Do you have MS? YES! Is it caused by a bacteria? YES! When I see someone w/arthritis I don't tell them they don't have RA, I just mention they might get alot better resolution and treatment from an accurate Bowen Test. I have the same opinion with MS.
I'm curious, what is your LLMD's take on the neurologists saying you have MS? Does your LLMD believe the lesions may be MS or are caused by Lyme Disease? Answers to this question will give you the information you need. It will help you know if your LLMD is truly a LLMD . . . with a positive lyme test a true LLMD would know it's MS caused by lyme and begin treatment for LD. The LLMD would not be moved by your two neurologists who are not Lyme Literate or they would not be saying what they say.
A LLMD who say's "Lymes" is a red flag to me. I would have alot of trouble having faith in what he says. I don't mean to criticize, just increase awareness and keep education going.
As for the ongoing candida, are you on a lyme diet? Yeast free sugar free? This helps tremendously, no alcohol or white carbs. Are you on supplements to fight the candida such as large amounts of quality pro-biotics? Are you building your immune system with other supplements and taking lots of Magnesium? A thorough LLMD would be working to resolve these issues.
As for how the Bowen works, they use a darkfield microscope which means instead of looking like the traditional lighted microscope, it's very dark and the light comes from the sides of the slides. They use a staining procedure that attaches to lyme bacteria and it shows up as a flourecsing spiral bacteria.
As for the serial dilution, that counts bacteria that is in your blood, not your tissues. Considering you have lesions it has invaded a particular area that cannot be measured w/o a biopsy which is most likely not possible (and not recommended!).
Sometimes they can test spinal fluid but I would NEVER let them do a spinal on me, the risk is too high. Your lyme could be so entrenched in your tissues that the Bowen titer is lower but you are easily just as ill as your friend. Also consider that there have been 300 strains of LD identified worldwide with 100 in the US alone. With different strains it is difficult to compare yourself w/your friend.
One more consideration is your immune system, you may be handling it better that your friend.
Look for a PM and I think I can help you w/a few articles.
Take care Curley
Posts: 982 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Well, I think I can forget the BOWEN test. According the nurse practitioner tonight at my local ducks office, they don't believe in the Bowen test around here because it is not accurate. It always gives a positive according to them.
They told me on the phone earlier today, that they finally got an answer from the Pathologist, he was waiting on the people at Marshfield Wisconsin Clinic to get back to him, and THEY said that the Bowen test is a HOAX. So when my doctor gets back from vacation and hears that next week, I am sure it is not going to happen now.
Plus, STILL no antibiotic from them. I did get a flu shot tonight, but that was it.
At least I have some fish (food?) stuff coming that should help me get on a good regimen soon.
SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Jim,
I would suggest you research the Bowen test further before suggesting it is a HOAX. There is wide debate, but it is credible in my opinion. Lastly, if you expect to get well with a doctor that is not open-minded especially around Lyme issues, I would be concerned. Find another doctor.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ann-OH
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Member # 2020
posted
I believe JimBob said THEY - the people at the Marshfield Clinic- said the Bowen test was a hoax. He wasn't suggesting it, rather reporting what was the problem at the M. Clinic.
Also, the Phillips-Mattman test was published in a medical journal in Europe called Infektion back in the late '90's. The test has never been made available commercially. Part of the problem was that the test called for using Detroit tap water. And other labs could not reproduce the results as published.
Here is the description of the Bowen test from their website.
Note: The test is still a study that has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal, which is probably why places like the Mayo and Marshfield clinics will not touch it. And - being patented is not an endorsement of the product, it is just a way to protect it.
This may help to differentiate the carriers from the patients with serious disease by comparing persistence of fluorescing structures.
In this part of the test, whole blood is diluted and fluorescent antibody added.
The solution containing the antigen is progressively diluted down until a count of the antigen in that particular blood sample remains.
Bowen Research has found the Bb antigen in whole blood, breast milk, urine, placental tissue, semen, eye fluid, teeth, foot nodules, shoulder fluid, spinal fluid, finger joint fluid, and African dust.
Findings are documented with digital photography using Darkfield microscopy. The Bowen Lab receives blood specimens for Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) from all of the United States.
In addition, the Bowen Lab receives blood from doctors ordering the test from Canada, Brazil, Denmark, Scotland, The Netherlands, Ireland, England, France, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, and the Canary Islands.
The recent database numbers for those tested is approximately 11,000-12,000.
According to a recent poll of patients, clinically diagnosed with Lyme disease, whose physicians had ordered the Bowen Q-RiBb test, 100% of those patients tested with the Bowen reported their tests were positive for Bb.
Outside critics of the test believe the Bowen has ``too many positives''. Not so if you consider that the people taking the Bowen Q-RiBb test could be `clinically diagnosed' with Lyme just by evaluating their symptoms.
Most had received negative or equivocal test results with the other Lyme tests ordered by their physicians.
When negative or equivocal test results are interpreted by their physicians, it is determined that it is unlikely that their patients are infected with the Lyme bacteria.
Physicians are hesitant to `clinically' diagnose Lyme based on the symptoms alone. Patients pro-actively seeking an answer to their continued symptoms and suffering eventually learn about the Bowen Q-RiBb test.
A positive result with the Bowen test helps these people finally get a proper diagnosis and get properly treated for Lyme disease and co-infections.
The Bowen Q-RiBb test just recently received US Patent approval. [end quote]
posted
THANK YOU ANN. To Scott: IF I were going to allude to anything, it would be in NO UNCERTAIN terms. Did you notice the ANGRY little grinch in my post? Does THAT appear that "I" am thinking the Bowen Test IS a HOAX?
Believe me, IF I think something IS, YOU will know instantly in NO uncertain terms. I call a Spade a Spade.
"I" was JUST reporting what THEY said. Please reread it. IF you will notice, I used all CAPS in that word, THEY; both NOW and in the earlier post. THAT is for emphasis, Scott, so you don't miss it.
NOW, I ask YOU Scott: Can YOU live on $555 per month? For everything? And I might point out, "I" have to spend $60 a month for ostomy supplies out of that measley little SS check. Plus I live way up NORTH and FUEL is a BIG item in the budget.
I was self employed for the past 40 years, so NO insurance, NO savings, etc., etc.. THAT is why I canNOT go to a LLMD, anytime SOON. In the meantime, I was near what felt like DEATH. AND did NOT fell I would make it till next summer WHEN I would turn 65 to get the medicare, to maybe be able to see a LLMD.
HOPEFULLY, I explained this good ENOUGH now so YOU can understand.
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
Just my two cents...
JimBob - I know 2 people who had negative Bowen tests....they may be the only two in the world, but they do exist! My two Bowen's were very positive, at 1:128 and 1:32 (after 8 mos. of tx). Dr. Whittaker, who invented the test, is Board certified in 5 areas, including hemotology, and I believe she invented the ANA test for SLE that is presently in use. Maybe telling your doctor that would help?
Curley - I think you are correct. I saw research, but can't remember where (darn this Sometimer's Disease!) that said that 35% of MS patients who were tested were positive for Lyme. It follows the same demographics as Lyme too...primarily a temperate weather illness. The stats from that same study were even worse for some other diseases, as follows:
Percent of patients testing positive for Lyme: MS = 35% ALS = 55% CFS, FMS, & Parkinson's = 95% Alzheimer's - 100% (autopsies on 100 brains).
This raises the question of whether Lyme is the cause of these illnesses, or merely an opportunist. Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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JimBoB
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posted
Klutzo: I would THINK that if a person with MS or the others tests for Lyme and gets treated for such when positive, and IF the other disease they were diagnosed with gets better TOO, then we could fairly safely say it was the Lyme that caused it, don't you think?
Now IF you treat the Lyme and IT gets better, but the MS or Alz., or whatever doesn't get better, then MAYBE that other disease was NOT brought on my Lyme, but vice versa, wouldn't you think? Jim
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posted
Hi JOTJ MS is a disease of mystery. As of now, there is no research that has proven that MS is a product of the bacteria that causes Lyme disease. There is no absolute proof that MS is caused by a virus, bacteria or simply an auto-immune reaction. However, a lot of research seems to show that MS is an autoimmune disease. It was determined that gamma globulin did not enter the spinal fluid from the blood in MS patients but was created in the brain itself. This indicates that it's not necessarily a bacteria causing the immune system to produce antibodies against it, which then cross the blood brain barrier, but rather the immune system attacking the brain as if allergic to it. I question whether it's possible that the bacteria can cross into the fluid itself and then the antibodies are formed. MS and Lyme disease both produce lesions that show up on MRIs, which is why the diagnosis of either one strictly based on MRIs is problematic. I believe MS lesions commonly show up around the ventricles compared with Lyme lesions. Because there is no proof as to what causes MS, it could very well be from the Lyme bacteria, but again, there's no proof. MS is a disease that in a lot of ways is diagnosed when all other tests come back negative. There is no definitive test for MS at this time. At least Lyme has a test, but unfortunately it's not very accurate. In your case, you need to consider your history. Do you live in an area prone to Lyme? Did you have any flu-like symptoms prior to your neurological symptoms? Were you ever bitten by a tick? What do your MRIs look like? Did you have a western blot done? Is it possible that you have both MS and Lyme? You may never know for sure if you have MS or Lyme before starting treatment. In many cases of Lyme, Lyme isn't even diagnosed until after treatment begins. In other words, the patient tests negative before treatment and the tests positive after threatment starts. If you clinical presentation does not point in the direction of Lyme, then you may want to begin MS treatment in order to prevent any more attacks from occuring or to lessen the frequency of it. If you think it's Lyme, then you don't want to wait on your treament or you could become chronic. Good Luck!
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
I have seen several people in person that were diagosed with MS and could not walk without a cane or were in wheechairs that were later diagnosed with Lyme. Upon being treated for Lyme, clear improvements were noted. One person in particular no longer uses a cane and gets around quite well. I agree that many other diseases such as ALS, MS, etc. often have Lyme as either the or one of the causal agents.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I found out about this list from a gal in southern Iowa, who had been misdiagnosed for over 21 years. MS, Alzheimers, and many other things. She could NOT walk a year and a half ago.
Today, she can run and jump and skip and SMILE WHILE DOING THEM. You would never know by looking at her that she was either hospitalized or in wheelchair for years.
posted
Interesting to note that MS started in the NE, just like West Nile Virus and good ole lyme disease. The commonality? They are all in the path of Lab257.
Dr. Whitaker has isolated a specific spirochete that causes the MS symptoms in Lyme patients and I personally believe Lyme causes MS.
Technically speaking, the lyme bacteria cloaks itself in a protein it takes from our own bodies; this is called the Outer Surface Protein (OSP). The OSP protects the bacteria and our own immune systems cannot recognize it. Kindof like the "invisble cloak" in Harry Potter.
While the lyme bacteria is bashing around, our bodies know SOMETHING is out there but when they mount an attack, they can't find it. This puts the immune system into overdrive creating the illusion that it is solely an auto-immune system disease the person is dealing with.
That said, I only want to add that while being patented is not an endorsement of the Bowen, keep in mind that NONE of the test for Lyme Disease are FDA approved. Look at your lab files, you'll find disclaimers on a # of them saying something about this but the doctors use the tests everyday because they have grown to trust them.
To me, it's basic "Good Lord, do the math, we have an STD spreading like HIV and no one wants to diagnose it so it will continue to spread until it is recognized." It started when Lab257 leaked the bacteria in the 50's and newly declassified documents prove it.
Posts: 982 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Well, I am VERY new here, and I wasn't going to post anything for awhile - just read and read and learn as much as possible. So much for having a plan.
Regarding the Bowen test, I just had it done and my results are 1:128 also. Someone said - Scott? - that the dilutions don't mean much. If that is true, then I'm curious as to why many LLMDs use the Bowen test to monitor the effect of treatment? I did follow the logic of why the Bowen results could be a little skewed, but I think overall, it is the ONLY test I would recommend to anyone with chronic Lyme. Consider the source of this opinion - someone newly `diagnosed' and no LLMD on the horizon.......!!
One other thing about the Bowen test. It is my understanding that Bowen gets virtually NO negative results anymore from people from the U.S. (However, they still occasionally get negative results from people in Europe.)
Interestingly, however, back in 1995, there WERE negative test results being found in the U.S. using either the Bowen test or the Mattman test. So, it appears that something has changed in the population, not that the test is inaccurate. Here's one of the links that has that information:
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Hi I must agree with the Bowen test, no one else could figure out my son who seizure activites, my doctor suggested the best test, I had to pay out $250 from my pocket, believe me it was the best thing we did no other doctor could tell me what was wrong with him we got him on meds and they were gone,so they tested him again and me in NJ , I have Lyme and his came out postive again, I was told it just all depends whether it is the blood system when you have the test cause it can lay in bones and other organs.AQnd my son had a high level so they was a good test to start with. My doctor too has Lyme and is really keeping up with the new information. Good Luck Denise Posts: 43 | From Hanover Pa USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Posted in April, 2005. No one seemed to notice this, so the negative results are in bold, this time.
Robert Bradford the developer of a relatively new microscope confirms that he sees the Lyme bacteria that the Bowen Antibody test indicates is present. From the Townsend Letter:
As of this writing, the Bradford Research Institute/Ingles Hospital has 100% confirmation between Lyme morphology obtained utilizing the Bradford High Resolution Microscope and the Bowen fluorescent antibody test, 36 patients with positive correlation and 3 controls with negative correlation. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_258/ai_n8592734/pg_1
Blue Skies.......................John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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Truthfinder
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Member # 8512
posted
Good luck to you, too, Denise.
Wow, John, this is an absolutely excellent article - s0 much information there that I have been searching for - thanks so much for posting the link.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
Hi there, JOTJ.
I dunno much about Bowen as I went through IGeneX.
However, if I may offer a coupla words about worrying over MS...
On my first LLMD appointment, I told my new doc, "Hey, if you think I really have MS and not Lyme, please throw me outta here."
They kind of chuckled and told me they believed MS is really caused by Lyme. Also that I had a known tick bite and EM rash, about six highly positive bands on IgM, lived in an endemic area, was an outdoorsy girl, and they were firmly convinced I had Lyme, and not to worry.
They told me they had many patients much worse off than me with MS diagnoses, some in wheelchairs, who improved greatly with antibiotic treatment.
I had multiple brain lesions (11), abnormal evoked potentials tests (SSEPS) confirming the demyelinezation seen with MS, vision and retinal problems, and was pretty much scared shiRtless.
However, there is a growing body of research that suggests our LLMD's are right, and that Lyme is at the root of MS. I put my faith in my LLMD. After 7 months of treatment, I am probably 75% better and improving every day.
It's true that antibiotics are hard on your stomach and yeast issues have to be dealt with religiously. Please stay on top of yeast so it doesn't defeat your progress or make you think you're not making progress.
To submit to MS "treatment" is to give free rein to the bacteria you now know you have. You are basically saying to the bacteria, "Go forth and multiply! Here, I'll suppress my immune system for you so you can multiply without any trouble from me!"
Don't do it. Stay the course. Make sure you have a good LLMD (hopefully one who doesn't use an "s" on Lyme! ). If stomach issues are too rough, maybe IV would be a better route for you. Don't give up! As far as worrying over your two neurologists' opinions, do a search for the thread, "Are all neurologists goofy?"
Best of healing to you!
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Hi, I was 1 of the 20 written up on Bowen Treatment. Amer. Med. Journel. When I 1st met Dr. W. Then worked with her at lab when she 1st found the chete mutating. I was taking care of patients at time. I heard the excitement, Sally who ran clinic came in & told me what Dr. W. found & saw it happening.
BTW/The Bowen treatment did something, only thing that gave me few months of part of my life back. I also saw the test results where I ws hooked up moderating my energy before & after Bowen treatment. I went from 300, to over 1000 after 3rd treatment. I went in as TOTAL skeptic. Usually driving home I could only if lucky make 1 stop before I crashed. This time went all through Super Walmart, Target & few other stops. All sudden realized what I just did & made it without tears running down my cheek from pain & severe fatigue. She has more degrees than I have ever seen, spent her life dedicated to medicine & research.
She is probably only 1 we have left,( she is not well from Lyme & other problems of late.) Anywho, a Dr. that truly knows what All is going on with Lyme due to her testing. IMHO, I think we all carry the mycoplasma, root of all this that branches off into diff. directions, from MS/FM/ALS/Parkinson's, what ever you want to call it since Lyme has more co-infections, it being able to live with no host & mutate how ever it dang well pleases. I do believe, same as we carry strep,staff,cancer cells, just needs a Window of opportunity. Most Patients had child-hood symptoms from leg pains, Growing pains,right what the heck is that??? I was NOT growing for yrs. had terrible leg pains. Also many severe throat infections more than normal. That is probably why all test positive, whether active or not her test being the most refined.
BTW Curly, my EBV all 8 bands were way out of sight also.
She was unable to get certified through Govt. for many reason, 1 she was going to expose them to the point she was offered prison.
The Govt. let this out, it back-fired. Imagine the law suits, if they admitted. No diff. than finally had to admit agent Orange, that it spread much further. I know a guy who skin is mess from NO agent Orange supposedly????
I say DUH, to all. Look folks this is why Govt. closes Lyme labs, or clinics. Too close for comfort. Few whistle blowers lately, & of past are saving our butts.
I also run really low temp, Dr. W. said I will not beable to get better until can get my temp up. For some who wonder why unable to get better? Chetes can feed off low temp, but testosterone & high temps are few things they can`t hide from.
That is why men crop up with R/A, ALS,Parkinsons,knee problems later 50ish when their testosterone starts to drop. Women get all the FM/Cfids/MS/ dx`es after mid thirties usually when their hormone levels tend to drop. Many patients had car wreck, woke up with DX of FM. DUH??? Think they just woke up with it. They had it & most patients got ill after severe stress or illness in their life. That was the window of opportunity. So, IMHO, anyone bit by anything even mosquito, good chance invaded carrier. Waits for that window. Doing my best to put in laymans terms.
I feel if our community loses Bowen we lose alot. She is one,sharp & tuff cookie, HI, in case your reading. You know who I am live close by.
I went in non believer am total believer she is doing all she can. I say thanks. All should also. Wake up Govt. going to have to fess up. It went beyond the Punta Gorda incident.... 80% town got what called Cfids, after Canada & U.S. letting out 700 infected mycoplasma mosquitios....... Had to toss in my 2 cents. Take Care, All) Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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SForsgren
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Member # 7686
posted
To respond to an earlier question in this thread, the dilution is an indication of how much is found in the blood. My opinion is that you can be ill at lower dilutions (more ketes deeper in the muscle/tissue, etc. and less in the blood) or be improving by reducing the ketes in the tissues but still show more in the blood. I did the Bowen test initially but I personally do not see the value in doing it much for a determination of progress. Interested in other points of view.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Eveyone on this board is AMAZING!!! Reading the posts on this thread shows me how educated about Lyme this group has become in the last few years . . . 4 years ago anyone even remotely suggesting Lyme could be an STD or possibly being the cause of MS, Parkinsons, Lupus, RA, FM, CFS, etc. was outrageous.
I just got hooked on reading all of the different contributions and each one added another piece of the puzzle. Kerryblue, you are so frighteningly informed about the truth/coverup that I know some may be saying "wh-at??" . . . hopefully they will get it someday. I didn't know EBV had bands either, I learn something new everyday!
The Townsend Letter linked earlier is awesome. If you take time to read one thing people, make that it. I say that because if you can stop at that, then you'll never get it.
What a rewarding feeling it is to belong to such an wonderful group of people.
Hugs to all! Curley
Posts: 982 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Yep, the Govt is in process of working on something to kill a stealth virus,etc. Said, it May happen.???? Guess what, HELLO, it has & they know it buried I am sure in their tons of papers or shredded.
Hi, Curly, been awhile we used to chat.Missed you. Just lost so much on those Lemon puters.
Wake up for those who do not think something like this can happen. IT has you are paying the price. Like any disease,from heart,cancer, etc, comes in all forms levels. No diff. here....There are 100 diff kinds of cancer alone. I could have 3 patients all with let say appendix, come in same day, each 1 totally diff. diff.,treatment depending on situation. Just little analogy.. Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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