posted
My question is I had a failed root canal from 1999; had the apical surgery in February; found infection in the jawbone. Still had pain and was told residual infection still showed on panoramic Xray.
Then, had tooth 14 removed on Dec 20. Still SAME pain I had before removal. Like trigeminal neuralgia. I feel I had the tooth removed unnecessarily.
Should I remove my temporary bridge? Dr. drilled down the temporary to make it more comfortable. I am on antibiotics. I even took past advice on the clindamycin. Did IV Cleocin for 5 days before surgery and one day post-op.
The pain is not every day; lasts two to three days. Migraine Medicine Zomig 5 mg helps it immensely. Heat helps as well.
Our biological dentists here have both had major lawsuits from removing NICO cavitations and drilling into people's sinuses and almost killing them. At this time, I cannot go to Dr. H in Reno.
Is this just trigeminal neuralgia or what?
I have been treated for Lyme since Oct, 2004 w/ Bactrim, Biaxin, Doxy, Flagyl and currently Mino. I wear a nightguard as well EVERY night.
Any suggestions?
Posts: 23 | From Phoenix, AZ US | Registered: Jul 2004
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chroniclymie
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description of the pain ,area ,intensity, rfrequency,sensitivity to hot, cold,area of exact pain, any lower teeth hurt when tapped on, is nessesary to make dx. please post these and i can help with a dx.
can be anything from sinuses, trigeminal nerve /facial nerve neuralgia, tmj, ear infection,residual cyst in bone, even lower tooth problems. docdave
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lymie tony z
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I continue to get pain in areas in my jaw that have had tooth extractions from years past.
This I believe is due to the lyme attacking the nerve system.
Unfortunately I don't know what we can do about it. The little buggers like the holes left after a tooth extraction.
Maybe others can help with some suggestions.
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Sorry, I messed up my reply. Pain is more on the outside of my face. It is towards by my temple, and mid-ear. It radiates down. When it is intense (like now), even my left eye hurts.
My actual extraction does not seem to be terribly sore. The gum area is not sensitive. I saw the tooth extracted and it was dark or the root was dark.
It is a dull, heavy ache--not sharp pain. No teeth hurt when tapped and I have no sensitivity to hot or cold.
I am flushing the site of the temporary bridge 2x to 3x a day. I rinse my mouth w/ salt water whenever I eat anything.
Thanks for the kind replies; this board is a godsend!
Posts: 23 | From Phoenix, AZ US | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I vote for lyme in jaw, which feels like your basic infection. LL
Posts: 484 | From Fredericksburg, Va USA | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Hard to say of course. Sounds like a neuralgia, but could be rooted in an infection/inflammation.
Certainly continue with a workup with the appropriate professionals, but also might consider infrared therapy topical: www.lumenphoton.comPosts: 211 | From NC | Registered: Dec 2005
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oxygenbabe
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I had a similar problem but the extraction site got infected because she fractured the socket all the way up, and she stitched it against my request, probably because she'd fractured the socket so badly, and a bone fragment had to later surgically be removed. Being stitched it couldn't drain properly and I believe its still infected. I took high dose amoxy for a week initially. It is still very sore and flares up. I'm using liquid allicin and thinking of ozone injections later.
Yours, if the site is not sore, sounds like neuralgia and maybe the bridge is irritating it. Topical DMSO might help.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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How did you know your dentist had fractured your socket--I only know what they tell me. I do not know how you can tell they got everything; of course, they tell you they did.
I think one of the problems I am having is I have gone to practicioners recommended by my dentist. How do you know they are not protecting each other's work?
Oxygenbabe, that is interesting that your infection only acts up now and then; I thought that an infection would present as constant pain. Do you take antibiotics regularly and are just adding the allicin, etc?
Also, of both those websites for energy therapy/infrared treatments---which products do you recommend?
I am wondering if there is a massive sinus infection or something that causes this? Maybe the extraction stirs things up?
I will definitely get some DMSO and try it. I have tried oil of oregano as well. Maybe I should have stayed on Clindamycin as it is indicated for bone infections.
Thanks again--if anyone has a brainstorm, let me know. I have 23 hours until my dentist is in his office!
Posts: 23 | From Phoenix, AZ US | Registered: Jul 2004
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oxygenbabe
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slm, I only know because I had what is known as a sequestrum, which, is the fracture was not just a 'greenstick' fractured but a piece of bone came out, with the tooth, and another piece was so dislodged that it could not heal and began to sort of diagonally push against my gum and had I not had surgery it would've eventually poked itself out as my body was rejecting it, as a dead piece of bone. It was horribly painful. The second dentist, who is very good, and my friend took me to, told me that a piece of bone was missing, and he removed the sequestrum and he told me that the fracture went up 90% of my socket. So that's how I knew.
The area itself is always sore, and that is about 13-14 weeks after the original extraction and probably 6-7 weeks after the second surgery. But it gets much worse when I eat any starches, cheese, beans, anything with carbs. This does not surprise me as any organisms thrive on glucose.
I'm not sure WHAT to do, right now I'm probably going to get the filling in the molar behind it corrected, and maybe in front, because both have composite fililngs that are leaking and once those are both secure and okay I will probably do ozone injections even though there is a mixed literature on that, the bone will absorb the ozone gas and it should get rid of a low grade infection. I prefer this to antibiotics, because nobody knows what's in there.
I should also add, that I rarely take antibiotics as they do such a # on me. But the morning after the extraction I felt something was SOOOOO wrong, I could just feel it, I ran to the drugstore and got an rX for amoxy filled and began to take 3 grams a day. I did that for 7 days straight. I'm totally convinced I prevented a disaster that way but even so the amoxy did not kill off all the infection. Usually the mouth has mixed microbial flora and usually amoxy is the drug of first choice and if not that then yes, augmentin or clindamycin. But even after a short time of amoxicillin I had weeks of post-antibiotic weirdo reactions: tachycardia, low grade fevers, palpitations, chest pain, all of which is for me, when my body gets thrown off by antibiotics and has fungal superinfections. That all quieted down after a few weeks.
So I'm still suffering, and I feel I met the dentist from hell (had she extracted the tooth more patiently, she would not have made such a mess; and had she not stitched it against my will, it would've been able to drain. The way she did it, it was a contaminated fracture, because it was traumatized bone and then it couldn't drain properly). In fact, I basically hate most dentists, as half of them are so inept.
The silver lining to this is chronic bladder irrtation that I'd had post-cystitis for many months cleared up on the high dose amoxy. But now I have to work on the tooth.
I would say, if you can handle it, the killer combo for mouth infections is flagyl and clindamycin. Thats what they prescribe for serious periodontal issues. HOwever, the dentist who does ozone says its working great on gum disease. I'm just not ready to do that until I fix up the teeth in front and behind, because during the worst of htis I also got a catscan from an oral surgeon thru my HMO, just to be sure the sinus had not been perforated, and she told me to take care of both of those teeth asap to preveent any other problems because the edges of the composite fillings are leaking.
The device I would recommend is the x-light, its better than the $800 devices, you can plug it in or use a battery and you get 3 different wavelengths and it pulses according to 7 different resonant frequencies of tissue.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Oxygenbabe, I have never heard such a horror story. Was your dentist an oral surgeon? I think you are finally on the right path.
If that does not help, explore the trigeminal neuralgia society. Many of the patients that are represented there have had botched dental work that may or may not have triggered their pain. They call Trigeminal Neuralgia "suicide disease" because it is so difficult to gain relief.
If mine does not resolve soon, I am going into a pain doctor I know for a shot of Botox. She has had excellent results with it; she also gives me my prescription for Zomig.
I will also try your device; makes more sense than many of the other things recommended. It is why acupuncture and massage help for a short while as well.
When I think of the $ we have spent to have this pain---
Posts: 23 | From Phoenix, AZ US | Registered: Jul 2004
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oxygenbabe
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I know. Other weird things have been happening lately so it's time for the exorcist
I don't believe in trigeminal neuralgia in most cases. Occasionally it *can* be that excessive blood vessels are wrapped around a nerve causing pain and if removed take it away. Otherwise I think nerves settle down UNLESS there is chronic infection. That's just my belief. I don't think nerves just scream for no reason.
Anyway, it's not trigeminal neuralgia. The socket site itself is sore, for example, I can't brush it with a toothbrush even gently. And its not an electric jolt of pain. Neither is it atypical neuralgia. It's low grade chronic infection from a bad extraction that isn't healing well. Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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GiGi
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SML, you will find a lot of commentary (100's) on this board. Do a search here. The article below stands out. It's not easy to get well when the teeth are involved, but it can be done. I am proof of that as are many others that I have become friends with over the years. Each one is different, but the microorganisms are involved, mainly Bartonella and Babesia (jaw and eyes).
This is based on our experience and that of our doctor.
"Facial Pain Linked To Infections
by Christopher J. Hussar, D.D.S., D.O.
For almost a century controversy has waged regarding the existence of a disease process with infectious origins within the dental alveolus. These localized infectious processes have been strongly implicated in generating facial pain including trigeminal neuralgia along with other cranial facial pain disorders including, remote pain disorders in distant regions of the body. The Father of modem dentistry, G. V. Black, recognized and gave notice in one of his textbooks to the actuality of a hollow jaw bone, housing an infectious process within the dental alveolus.
A review of the literature reveals numerous papers from the early 20th century written by both M.D. and D.D.S. alike, describing the surgical debridement of jaw infections including devital teeth, and localized osteomyelitis lesions that successfully treated, not only localized facial pain, but remote pain disorders such as arthritis as well.
Sir Wilfred Harris, a British neurosurgeon, proposed the reality of a chronic intra osseous infection within the alveolus causing neural degenerative changes and demyelination to trigeminal nerve branches. This was in 1926 and was widely accepted by dental surgeons in America nearly a century prior.
century the theory of "focal disease" arose in which a chronically infected area of the body was responsible for causing pathology elsewhere. Many tonsils as well as teeth were removed with miraculous, as well as not so miraculous, results. The clinician would script an article expounding the cure of arthritis after the patient had several diseased teeth removed. Anecdotal cases of blindness reversal was documented (your author has witnessed such an event)...
Much credit must be attributed to the brilliant research of Dr. Weston Price in the early part of our century. With incredibly reproducible results, this research dentist demonstrated the existence of multiple bacterial strains in dental teeth including root canals. In addition, he addressed the chronically infected periodontal membrane and periodicular bone resulting from infected teeth and the cavitation of such chronically infected bone if thorough socket curettabe was not performed properly.
With the ``disproving'' of the focal theory by our progressively autocratic medical/dental complex, the concept of chronic dental/alveolar infections has gone practically unrecognized for the past sixty years.
One of the reasons may be poor visuatlization of these chronically ``cavitated'' lesions on intra-oral radiographs. Usually housed within the cancellous bone, the cortical plates and their different x-ray absorption qualities obscure and alter the true picture lying deep within the jaw bone.
In reality, this is not the case as certain radiographic landmarks are quiate visible and will readily confirm the presence of these lesions. With continued x-ray evaluation along with curettage of a suspected lesion, they will become obvious.
The above mentioned as been well documented by Jerry Bouquot, D.D.S., M.S.D., in his numerous articles on NICO (Neuralgia Industing Cavitational Osteonecrosis) lesions describing ``laminar rain,'' the x-ray visible, boney changes resemblung the rungs of a ladder. This results when the bone of the extraction site refuses to heal properly, literally leaving the root outlined.
Micro calcification within the confines of the original extraction site, further confirms the presence of an inflammatory bone lesion, often referred to as a cavitation.''.
In surgerizing mandibular lesions, involvement of the inferior alveolar nerve (IAN) by the obstructive process creates a characteristic appearance on the x-ray. The superior aspect of the mandibular canal, the ``roof,'' is usually eliminated and the fine, dense superior white line is seen to disappear as the IAN courses through the lesion site.
Absolute certainty of course only occurs with biopsy confirmation of curettaged tissue from these lesions. With little practice and suspicion, near one hundred percent accuracy is possible when performing the surgical debridements.
Perhaps our subject matter has been ignored for decades because of a failure to biopsy on the part of dentistry as a whole. Do endodontists rely on the biopsy for verification of tissue? Hardly, for my dental training down-played the role. Do oral surgeons send their extracted teeth in for biopsy along with any abnormal bone that may be removed along with those teeth? It is my policy to biopsy every tissue fragment I remove from the mouth.
My judgement in determining pathology has been incorrect less than .5% of the time. Once you begin to recognize the disease, the diagnosis becomes much easier.
When curetted, the contents of these intraosseous lesions may present varying types of diseased tissue. Commonly, when surgically opened, the lesion site is void of caancellous bone; thus the derivation of the term ``cavitation,'' a hollow cavity exists. Other presentations include hemorrhagic bone with easily curettaged spicules of both viable and non-viable bone.
degenerated bone can commonly be curettaged; in fact, **************opening up one of these lesions with a fissure burr causes an exudate not unlike bloody chicken soup with countless micelles of fat floating on the surface of the serium***************.
If an area of condensing osteomyelitis/osteitis is evident on an x-ray associated with a suspected cavitational area, surgically speaking the alveolar bone will usually possess a consistency of pearl-like hardness implying condensed bone that has been made devital by ischemia. This is extremely difficult bone to surgically eliminate especially in the presence of the inferior alveolar nerve. These patients will often develop facial pain syndrome and can be difficult to treat.
Microscopically most biopsy reports will demonstrate marrow fibrosis as the body attempts to regenerate itself, fibrotic material heals easier than bone. Multiple fragments of bone shard appear as the impaired blood supply cannot provide adequate flow to new bone attempting to replace diseased bone.
When your patients come to you months after a difficult extraction, showing a small bone fragment that has worked its way through the gingiva, you didn't forget to irrigate it out; the body refused to nourish it and it sloughed. Lymphocytes may or may not be encountered depending on the chronicity of the infection, the immunity of the patient, nutritional status, and other factors.
Neurophils, most commonly seen with acute inflammatory processes, are seen infrequently with cavitations. What is seen primarily is necrotic bone flake often intermingled with viable bone. Remarkably, very few osteoblasts or osteoclasts are observed in specimens. Most articles covering facial pain are written dealing with trigeminal neuralgia, atypical facial pain (AFP) and TMJ, with the latter two being the most common. Most of these reading this article are well-versed in the treatment of TMJ disorders.
However, what treatments do you prescribe to the patient who has had 5 or 6 bite splints from other practitioners and his facial pain persists without alleviation? You must always be suspicious of a ``NICO'' process smoldering in the patient's alveolus when consulted by such a patient.
********************Their orruccurrence is of epidemic proportions; if the patient has had any third molars removed, it's a safe bet to conclude that cavitations are present. Why do they cause pain in some and not others Multiple theories have been proposed as to what mechanisms exist allowing NICO's to generate pain A general consensus agrees upon the initial development of an intra-alveolar infection from a devital tooth, root-canaled tooth, ir extraction site. This infection persists within the alveolus and can ``tunnel'' or remain localized.
In the mandible, the bascula system is an end-organ type or terminal vessel allowing basically one-way flow of blood. Chronic infectious agents harboed in these cavities, namely bacteria and their endotoxins along with what appear to be viral agents causes a vasculitis in the arterial side eventually compromising the flow of blood. With the onset of ischemia other changes occur. Antibiotics are not as effectivce for they rely on a blood supply to reach their target zone. Infectious agents often will die off or become rapidly attentuated and be rarely seen in biopsy.
Bone necrosis develops, the affected alveolus cannot heal properly, and a pathologice entity arises called ``NICO.'' What caused the pain?
The physiology of the trigeminal nerval is extremely complex. Peripherally, the dentin contains 30,000 to 70,000 microtubules per square millimeter! Free sensory nerve endings and dentinoblasts course through these tubules and communicate with each other and pulped nerve fibers, The pulp itself contains at best 600 t 700 nerve fibers with a majority consisting of the myelinated type. This concentration of fibers is higher than the corney making human pulp an extremely pain sensitive structure.
Sensory distribution of the trigeminal nerve is extensive as it supplies the ``central computer'' with information on pain, temperature and touch impulses from most of the head, skin, face, oral and nasal mucosa and dura mater.
*******************The axonal transport mechanism is capable of antegrade and retrograde flow, nourishing the periupheral branches with antegrade flow. Retrograde flow brings bacteria, viruses, endotoxins, and other degenerated compounds that are generated by devital teeth, N's, etc., to the central nervous system (CNS) and ultimately the main sensory trigeminal nucleus and spinal trigeminal nucleus. At some point, the CNS perceives a threat based on this feedback mechanism and goes on alert.
The multiplicy and overlapping peripheral innervation (dentinoblasts, pulpal fibers, periodevital ligament fibers) further complicates the picutre by converging as it approaches the CNS. An inflamed pulp from a hot tooth could be causing impulses that are below the threshold of pain perception of the patient. Add to this, a root canal and two NICO leasions from old third molar sites and the CNS, via cranbial nerve #5, is aroused it lets the patient know there is something wrong causing pain. The pain can be intermittend and excruciating like that of trigeminal neuralgia or vague and heavy, disguised as a headache, ear pain, sinus pain or non-specific jaw pain, troublesome enough to cause suicide.**********************
Localization of these pathological ``foci'' of pain-causing disease is best accomplished by anesthetic confirmation of ``neural therapy''. This technique utilizes local anesthetic, both vasoconstrictor and preservative free, that is injected into and about the periapical mucosal area of suspect N leasions or teeth in order to ascertain their effect on the patient's perception of pain. Approximately 1/2 cc of anesthetic solution is delivered to the suspected site via 30 gauge needle. If the pain is abolished, it is with high certainty that you have found the primary lesion. If only some of the pain has been attenuated, then continued testing in other regions both ipsilaterally and contralaterally in the arches is necessary. Be suspicious of any edentulous regions.
******************* You will discover every third molar area is usually associated with a NICO lesion prior to extraction. W I S D O M T E E T H are misnamed; they are teeth of misfortune.**********************
Take care. I wish you good luck.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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oxygenbabe
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That's a good article, thanx, Gigi.
WHat makes me mad is I never got a root canal. There was decay on this tooth that did not hurt but was up at the gumline, and within 24 hours of drilling and putting on a filling waiting for an onlay, the nerve hurt. I waited 2 days of nerve pain and went to get an extraction. So there was no pre-existing infection in the bone, and the nerve had only been inflamed for 2 days. So if the dentist had just done a patient, clean job, or even if she was inept but didn't suture it (I burst into tears begging her not to suture it and she said, Why, and I said, because it could get infected, but she couldn't leave me until it had clotted and she was 7 months pregnant and it was Friday and she wanted to go home to Westchester), then it could have drained. The combo was the disaster and now I have a problem whereas before I didn't. All these horror stories I've heard about crowns, root canals, and bridges, so I never got them, and the dental profession managed to screw me anyway. That's how I feel! I may sue her for malpractice as 10 days after the extraction I went back telling her it was terribly painful and she refused to take an x-ray! SHe just said, take painkillers!
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GiGi
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"Each one is different, but the microorganisms are involved, mainly Bartonella and Babesia (jaw and eyes)."
CORRECTION: To this sentence I should have of course added that often the mercury and others contaminating the area most likely were or are there also. The breeding ground needs to be cleaned up. Whichever way we do it ---- is up to the individual.
Depending on where the mercury is,the biotoxins are, the neurotoxins, it attracts different microbes. Babesia and Bartonella have a specific affinity to the retina and to what's behind they eyes. In terms of the viruses, it is the Cytomegaly Virus.
Symptoms of Chronic Mercury Toxicity in the Head, Neck, Oral Cavity Disorders:
Bleeding gums Alveolar bone loss Loosening of teeth Excessive salivation Foul breath Metallic taste Burning sensation, with tingling of lips, face Tissue pigmentation (amalgam tattoo of gums) Leukoplakia Stomatitis Ulceration of gingival, palate, tongue Dizziness/acute, chronic vertigo Riching in the ears Hearing difficulties Speech and visual impairment Glaucoma Restricted, dim vision
Anatomy of the Mouth: We have several cranial nerves in the mouth:
a) The 5th cranial nerve that is very much represented in the back of the tonisl area --- that is the vagus nerve.
b) The glossopharyngeal nerve, or the 10th and 11th cranvial nerves.
c) A couple of other ones that are present in the mucous membranes.
The main uptake of mercury is in the nerves. Not in the bloodstream, not in the veins, it goes straight to the nerves.
Mercury travels up the axon of the nerve from wherever it is, and it either ends up in the cranial nerve and goes straight into the brainstem or in a spinal nerve and goes up the spinal cord first and then up to the brain. It takes roughly the same time.
(Other less important is the venous uptake, lymphatic uptake, and the uptake of bowel bacteria in the intestinala tract.)
This is much of the root, the cause, for many of the complaints we all have - and that's the cause that needs to be addressed if we want to get a handle on the excess microorganisms that have invaded our body.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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oxygenbabe
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Yes. Gigi I have a book to recommend to you/Dr K that is the new book out on Autism: A Biomedical Approach, from DAN society (Defeat Autism Now), Pangloss and Baker...it's BRILLIANT.
A few lymie/cfs'ers including me are looking at it as a great model. Mercury toxicity of course being primary, then gut inflammation, poor diet, and chronic infection.
They are using transdermal chelators in some instances.
No ART, so I'm not saying you would be totally enthused about it, but very brilliant work on how mercury damages the methylation cycle in those who are vulnerable. The same enzyme in gut/immune system that is inhibited by mercury is also by strep, so I wonder if also by lyme and other toxin-producing bacteria.
Definitely it probably starts with metal poisoning in many.
By the way, I think a treatment like this would work:
It is radical, but I'd think it would work in jawbones. Once you get rid of the infection the bone *will* be able to heal, the body can do it. Of course, I don't know who in America would take this approach.
[ 08. January 2006, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: oxygenbabe ]
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Orofacial pain is horrendous to deal with. I have had this since a dentist pulled a tooth that was leaking following a root canal 3 years ago(which I resisted doing but the endodontist thought the lower molar left sided tooth needed it). On examination, the dental surgeon told me the tooth didn't seem decayed and that the root canal probably wasn't warranted nor was the extraction. I ended up with a bridge and severe chronic pain after several bouts of the dental surgeon who had to remove bony spurs up to 6 months after the extraction and ended up having to curettage the bone. Two years and rounds of pain doctor visits and the endodontist told me I had trigeminal neuralgia...another dentist didn't have a clue what lyme did but thought that the nerve was compromised. The pain goes on indefinitely and I attempted to treat the pain with vicoprofin and even tried gamma knife. The vicoprofin proved very toxic to my liver and my liver enzymes - over the last week -shot up very high but I was also on an antibiotic and klonapin and doxepin for sleep. A week ago, my family found me presumably sleeping late but heard my difficult attempt to breathe and had to call paramedics. Toxicology tests were negative and the hospital doctors could not understand why big flushes with narcan seemed to help me begin to wake up. I can only guess that it was lyme related and also the liver enzymes were elevated, especially with the huge amount of narcan they gave me. The odd issue is the lack of any definitive medications I could have taken since it had been 16 hours since my last vicoprofen or any medication. My guess is that I was severely dehydrated, liver compromised, and the lyme was again active...maybe any IV flush would have helped me wake up? Anyway, I am on a raw dark vegetable fast and doing MSM, chlorophyll and liver support herbs. I am seeking an LLMD with holistic knowledge anywhere in this country who can help me with lyme without further compromising my poor liver.
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oxygenbabe
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That's terrible, I'm so sorry. I'm truly scared of dentists by now as 7 years ago they cracked a perfectly good wisdom tooth during a cleaning (no cavity or filling in it) and 2 weeks later I was in severe pain and it took 6 months to convince people it was that tooth and pull it (a fracture is hard to diagnose). They did everything from prescribe neurontin which I refused to take to recommend deviated septum surgery which I also refused to tell me its idiopathic neuralgia. Finally the tooth was pulled after many had refused to do so and I felt fine. I never thought I'd have a similar problem again but lo and behold and these things are due to infection.
YOu might want to go to Dr. Hussar that Gigi quoted if you can get there. My case is still fresh enuf that if I can get ozone/oxygen in there, plus I have a hyperbaric chamber, I may be able to turn it around. Also, DMSO plus essential oils (google the anecdotal study I mentioned where essential oil pellets left in the bone cured a man's leg osteomyelitis resistant to all antibiotics). There are ways around it but you have to be creative.
I'm not sure that lyme is the culprit here, maybe so, but it could also be bad dentistry. IN my case, since there was NO prior infection in the jawbone at all, getting one there is suspicious. But once you're infected, it will not heal until you cure the infection. I like the essential oil idea as it gets right in there and you can kill the infection. Once the infection is gone, the body can and will heal, altho if there is necrotic bone in there it should be scraped out. But then the body can heal it.
Anyway I would recommend topical DMSO as it is supposedly a painkiller anyway. I know a lymie who had such bad knee pain from lyme he was ready for surgery and DMSO prevented all that, he now can jog etc. I haven't tried it yet. Also there is a producct from Allergy Research Group called Immune Prime that should help, its geranium oil with DMSO or something like that. I have it here and plan to try it soon. I'm just cautious, one thing at a time.
By the way, what is a "bony spur"? I know I had a sequestrum and could feel it and besides it was the most painful thing I"d experienced. But what is a "bony spur"? Thanx.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Are you going to try the pellets or are you going to topically apply the essential oils to your gums? Who would do the pellets for you? Once your tooth is extracted, they would have to drill into your jawbone? Or not?
Is the Osteoset (sp?) pellet indicated for oral surgery? Many dentists/oral surgeons will not use a product if not specifically indicated for use in the mouth.
Would you go to an oral surgeon and request this?
Sorry to ask so many questions--I have been up now over 24 hours and my brain hurts as much as the tooth!!
[ 09. January 2006, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: slm214 ]
Posts: 23 | From Phoenix, AZ US | Registered: Jul 2004
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chroniclymie
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sounds from your symptoms that the pain is focused on the 5th cranial nerve(the facial nerve). it runs close to the ear canal and onto the face as a mostly sensory nerve with some motor components. from the symptoms given sounds like: 1) acute tmj exaberated by opening the mouth from the extract( very common on back teeth) 2) possible maxillary sinus infection 3) possible oro-antral fistula. this is caused by the root of the tooth being in very close proximity to the maxillary sinus, not uncommon in may people. the floor of the sinus(bone) breaks from the infection, and you get an opening from the mouth to the sinus. this must be sugically covered or will never heal. from your past history i would go with 1 then 2 wear your mouthguard 24 hours a day. aleve or motrin warm compresses to temporal area. also should check from ear infection sudafed 2 times a day see what happens. if not better go back to the oral surgeon and let him evaluate, there shold not be any charge, it should be included in the post op visits and is charged as a whole for the extraction. good luck docdave
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oxygenbabe
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Member # 5831
posted
SLM, I will do what I have to do. However, I am also rather slow moving and methodical and sit with problems for a while before making a decision. If it comes to me signing a disclaimer or going to Mexico or Canada to get a similar intervention, if I'm forced to, I will. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I find Dr Hussar's description of the bone scary but the fact is, thats what happens with chronic osteomyelitis. You keep getting sequestri--maybe that's what "bone spurs" are?--but anyway you keep forming them because the bone is not healthy and the body rejects it. Its because of the infection. If you can get rid of the infection the body will know what to do, I have to beleive that. I do not believe that you will just have to live with it. The point is, Dr. Hussar has gone just so far, and I admire how far, but okay, oral abx do NOT penetrate well into bone as its poorly perfused and certainly not into ischemic bone. SO, you need to try and clean out the site as best you can, I would ozonate it if it were opened, and then the calcium pellets they put in were actually a form of bone graft, but they were soaked in the essential oils. I think this could be done as a last resort after ozone, and/or oafter topical dmso mixed with essential oils (which from my reading will dilute the MIC, or minimum inhibitory concentration, i.e. the oils will have less killing power BUT the DMSO should carry them into the area), the point would be to find an excellent oral surgeon who is accustomed to cleaning out such areas, but would be willing to add the essential oil part while consulting with the Australian scientists who fixed that guy. The response to that article by peer review was very interested esp for poor countries...and doesn't it make sense? Bacteria are not resistant to essential oils yet. You combine some different oils and youll get broad spectrum. The problem in this coutnry is that is so far from the standard of care, one might get in trouble? Certain states are pretty accomodating though, NEvada being one (I think that's where Hussar practices) and certainly on curezone folks talk about going down to a dentist in Mexico for their work.
Where there's a will there's a way I'm just very upset myself to have this problem because it could've been totally avoided--its not like I already had root canals, apical whatever, abscesses, etc. To the person who can't sleep at all from the pain, please buy the Immune Prime from Allergy Research and try it topically. It does taste like DMSO. But its analgesic.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Thank you, all. For now, I am trying the two Sudafed (they are helping!!) and I used a facial steamer with Vicks VapoSteam. The warm moisture is very soothing.
I am definitely getting the DMSO today and essential oils for the extracted area. I found an interesting treatment for this pain and I tried it. I used drops of Oil of Oregano (two drops in affected ear) in my ear and that seems to be providing relief as well.
I have increased my Magnesium during this "healing crisis" and may end up making the trip to Dr. Hussar. Probably will not do any cavitation surgery; I will certainly explore other options like Rife, ozone therapy, and even laser sterilization of the site.
I will probably insist my dentist take out my temporary bridge for right now so we can absolutely know what is going on.
I am also exploring my bite; will be seeing my TMJ dentist as well. If it is not a lot better by tomorrow, I will try a shot of Botox with a neurologist I know.
Posts: 23 | From Phoenix, AZ US | Registered: Jul 2004
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Lydie
Unregistered
posted
SLM 214, It's odd but I am having very similar pain as a result of a gum graft done last week. The surgeon took tissue from the roof of my mouth, under a flap so the site is not exposed, and the grafted it onto my gum line, where I had extreme recession. he also scraped down the tissue I had at the gumline, then sewed it back up. Nothing involving the teeth themselves.
I have pain in my mouth, extremely swollen lymph glands on that side in neck and by ear, ear pain w/water coming out both ears (not sure why?), dizziness and nausea from the fluid in ears, headache,and - especially -extreme pain on the side of my face, from temple down to jaw, and also beneath ear. Oddly, I also have pain in my left foot and arm, so I know it is probably Lyme/nerve related. Horrible headache too.Chills. Not feeling too good here.
I did the same thing. Went to covering PCP MD and said I had been on tetracycline and zithromax, so the surgeon didn't put me on anything, but I thought I should in fact be on something else. I am now on mega doses of the augmentin.
The herx from new med and symptoms from coming off of the others combine with the initial pain, I think.
I also took sudafed and I would like to suggest to you a lifesaving med for this type of pain (I have years of experience): Afrin! The no-drip original kind. I only use it once for a spell like this, but it really helps, along with the sudafed.
I have never figured out why the facial pain, and the congestion, occur together. Might be something about the sympathetic nervous system (my kid just did a report on this!). But it is a vicious cycle and dealing with the congestion seems to help the nerve pain. It's a mystery, but Afrin and sudafed help the pain.
I had surgery on my lower eyelid to remove a small cancer, a few years ago, and was sick for months. Some of this may just be our poor pathetic immune systems being overloaded. At that time, my anti-nuclear antibody went way up and a skin biopsy revealed lupus-like activity. I have some of the same burning systemic sensations, hard to describe.
Guess there is no such thing as minor surgery for a Lyme sufferer! Hope you all get relief.
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A few thoughts from one who has gobs of experience with chronic osteomyelitis caused by dental trauma...
Trigeminal nauralgia and chronic jaw bone infection are two different beasts altogether. It is so important to distinguish them. To save time and trouble, trigemenial does NOT CAUSE INFECTIOUS SYMTOMS like: fever, lymph node swelling, low energy, weight loss, bone death, hot inflammation, etc.
Chronic jaw bone infection - or osteomyelitis of the mandible or maxilla is A VERY SERIOUS MEDICAL INFECTION requiring a team approach for resolution including: an infectious disease specialist, an oral surgeon, and usually a pain management dr. It is very hard to find this in today's medical approach. For some reason it is in a big black hole in the intersection of dentistry and medicine.
A bone infection anywhere else in the body is treated extremely aggressively, usually with IV antibiotics for a few months, followed by oral antibiotics. the infection is almost always polymicrobial, and is difficult to culture from the mouth. The best approach is broad spectrum antibiotics for both gram pos. and neg. organisms. Unless the problem is treated aggressively, it can become a life long chronic situation.
Having Lyme disease on top of a bone infection in the jaw makes it all the more important to treat it aggressively since one's immunity is so challenged by lyme.
I WOULD NEVER, EVER ALLOW ANYONE TO PLACE ANY KIND OF HOMEOPATHIC OR HERBAL OR ALTERNATIVE TYPE SUBSTANCES INTO AN EXTRACTION SITE. THIS ALONE CAN LEAD TO A VERY SERIOUS INFECTION.
Anneke
Posts: 364 | From California | Registered: Sep 2005
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