posted
Sometime back Oxygenbabe asked me to post all of the herbs and supplements that helped bring my wife and I back to the good health we enjoy today.
In a nutshell, we suffered mostly from neuro- borreliosis, untreated for 1 1/2 years. After testing positive with IgeneX and Bowen, and then taking the obligatory 4 weeks of low dose doxy- cycline (200mg/day), we decided to try our best to treat the Lyme infection with herbs. This was in March of 2004. Through much trial and error and research, the group of herbs and supplements evolved to those known to combat spirochetes, other bacteria, yeast, fungus, and viruses, and then those that helped in eliminating toxins from the die-off of Lyme bacteria. You may notice a similarity between our selection of herbs and supplements and those of a recent book about Lyme healing by Stephen B. I haven't read it yet. Our picks predate his publication, some by more than a year. So our treatment for Lyme is entirely independent from his book, although we probably read many of the same articles. These are the herbs we felt most important in our recovery, in order of efficacy:
Cat's Claw : 'Samento is a special form of Cat's Claw that is TOA free. The removal of TOA alkaloids is probably not necessary, and adds to the cost of purchasing Cat's Claw.'
We continue to use the RainTree brand (includes TOA) and is the whole Peruvian Uncaria tomentosa provided by nature.
Seven Forest Formulas no. 6 & 18 to combat spirochetes. These include among other herbs, isatis leaf, hu-chang, andrographis, forsythia, gardenia, scute, phellodendron, and coptis. Taken 3 X 3/day of each formula for one month.
Olive Leaf extract Sarsaparilla or Smilax Teasel liquid extract Pau d'Arco Grape Seed Extract Garlic - Kyolic (103 and 105 formulas) Silver - ASAP (tested for safety) Oregano - liquid extract from the Mediterranean diluted with Olive oil NAC (Cysteine) Triphala from India Folic Acid
We hope that this information will help those suffering from Lyme disease and co- infections. Everything above is totally my opinion, as a nutritionist and as one who has been through it.
Blue Skies..........John
[ 13. January 2006, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: jwf ]
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
thanks john.
Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Thank you so much! My friend/acupuncturist in Santa Fe who has had it about...I dont know, maybe 8 years or so? started on the Seven FOrests herbs after doing oral metal chelation, she is doing high dose. She wrote me some months ago she was herxing but improving steadily, and she sent me a New Year's card that she is still improving steadily. SHe felt she had to chelate (she used a gentle oral formula) first before she could tolerate the high dose herbs. Gigi, you may remember her, as she was down in Texaco with us.
Anyway, she was celebrating in Carmel over the holidays. THis is the first time I've heard her have consistent improvement.
I liked the idea myself and once I finish this book I'm working on at end of February, I am going to have some time to relax I hope and test things that might cause herxes or side effects.
John, what is triphala and why did you take it? And where did you get your teasel root? Did you ad these things in one by one or both do the whole protocol all at once? Are you still on it all?
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Andie333
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Thanks, John!
I forwarded this to my acupuncturist. She's the one who first suspected Lyme.
Andie
Posts: 2549 | From never never land | Registered: May 2005
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hardynaka
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Member # 8099
posted
Thanks a lot John! I'm on many of the herbs you suggested, I think I don't feel sick anymore (but still got arthritis)...
It didn't help with babesiosis though, but I got treated with Riamet and that did the job.
Your dosage of Seven Forest Formulas is only one month? Or are you still on lower daily dosages?
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
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posted
John: Thanks for the post.
I just read the URL you had listed for Cat's Claw. It was great. Loved it, especially the part where he compared the prices of TOA/POA natural and the TOA free cats Claw.
WOW, what a difference in price. 350 times?!?!??!
I see you and Buhner both recommend the Raintree brand of Cat's Claw. Any PARTICULAR reason WHY you do.
I had it in the beginning, but have switched over to Source Naturals Cats Claw. I have gone to the 1000mg TABLETS which are about HALF the price of the 500mg tablets when you figure it out.
I also see you did not list Milk THistlle, Devils Claw, Stephania Root, nor Acidophilus and others that I am taking. WAS there a reason for not using any of these? Do you feel one of the others take their places?
There is more about Barbara Hall on the net about her recovery using Teasel. Although it is a roadside herb, it may be difficult to find a source-- here's one we like:
Teasel is such a powerful herb it probably should be pulsed or alternated with other anti-spirochetes. Occasionally we would stop taking the stronger herbs for a couple of weeks and then start again to keep the polymorphic Lyme bacteria off balance.
Seven Forest Formulas: We have taken the one-month remedy about 5 times now. No set pattern- just a month or two rest between each months supply (3 X 3/day of each formula).
Blue Skies..........John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Milk THistlle, Devils Claw, and Stephania Root are primarily cleansing herbs for the liver, urinarly tract, and joints. Of course there are hundreds of herbs that have similar properties and it is usually a process of discovery to find what works best for you. Garlic, Olive Leaf Extract, Sarsaparilla, Triphala, and Grape Seed Extract, perform some of the same functions. The Kyolic formulas that we use include a mushroom complex as well as milk thistle. The friendly gut bacteria is something every- one should be attentive to. We use digestive enzymes and probiotics with most meals. Yogurt, kefir, and sauerkraut, are also good sources. The one benefit from my wife and I both having Lyme was that we could compare notes on the effects of each herb and supplement. After trying many different brands of Cat's Claw both TOA free and not, we agreed that we felt the best with the RainTree brand. That's a personal choice. Hope that helps.
Blue Skies.............John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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JimBoB
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posted
Hi John; I am taking the Milk THistle for cleaning the liver, but I understood Devils Claw to be for pain of Lyme Arthritus and inflammation; and Stephania Root for Asthma, Eye Problems, and Arthritic inflammations.
I got fantastic relief from Devils Claw after only two capsules for the pain in the tendons behind my knees last November. AND my eyes cleared up on just using Devils claw, Cats Claw and Sarsaparilla, in a few days more.
A week after that I added Resveratrol and Andrographis, but didn't notice any huge difference after adding them, though I have had a slow and steady improvment in how I feel the past two months. Except since I started tetracycline about two weeks ago. I had some minor setbacks, but they too are better now.
I haven't noticed any difference in HOW if feel since adding milk thistle and acidophilus, but since it is said they do help, I will continue to use them.
Thanks for all your info, I am going to check into some of the herbs you have used also.
Thanks so much for sharing what you and your wife discovered after long term investigation and experience. On my own personal journey which sounds similar to yours, interestingly I have a 'protocol' that is very similar to the elements in yours.
I am reading up on Triphala..that one caught my eye.
and in doing so, I wanted to ask you what form of Sarsparilla you have used.
I am using a tea made from the root, and I see some overlapping thereputic properties between Triphala and Sarsparilla..(blood purifier, anti-multiple organisms, capilary strengthener, general detox, liver protection/toning and other)
Tho I think it's best for the body to change things off, not stay on aything wothout taking breaks as I'm sure that's the best way to go.. ao I'm cpnsidering Triphala rotated with Sarsparilla.
I was just wondering what form or Sarsparilla you have used, and if off the top of your head you have any personal observations regarding these two remedies in comparison to one another.. and whther you took them together, or in rotation.
Congrats on your hard earned strides in health!
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
hi,sorry for my brain fog.please excuse me,i was asking john,as on their own,i think him and his wife came up with a good protocol that worked for them..anyways,i know you did read it, jim bob and you are following it,combined with abx.sorry,i really have neuro borreliosis/and i do not like how mentally debilitated i am.i also do not like how my non lymes friends have no inkling of this condition,and whst it is like.....i am on cats claw 2caps 3x a day and intend to do the core protocol,along with smilax,l acetyl carnitine,sam e,tons of vits/minerals.and then discuss with my doc, if my doc has other ideas.if a picc line of iv silver or abx would get rid of this condition i would do it,even tho i normally only do herbs,but i am unclear if abx will help in late stage lyme.so for now it is herbs and homeopathy again.this will be my third vist to the new doc.he has yet to prescribe anything besides salt/c,which i did not do and a nasal spray for mold,which gives me heartburn.yet he may have idea of combining buhner protocol with homeopathy or abx,as he is open and flexable.but he is no dr.k,tho he respects him ad reads his writings.
Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
by the way,jim bob,are most of your symptoms muscular and athritic stuff?mine are all neuro.
Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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For people who want to use teasel. I offer a 5:1 concentrated extract of Teasel at my web site.
I repackage it under my own brand, but it is from KPC herbs, which is a reputable source of Chinese herbs. All of their herbs are tested for and free of heavy metals.
Here is the link YinEssence.Com. I am glad herbs have worked for so many people here.
Herbs worked better for me after my condition was less acute. Essential oils and aromatherapy worked better when my illness was more severe.
It is always important to attack this disease from as many angles as possible.
Using medicinals that were antibacterial, that were detoxifying, that promoted blood circulation, that fought the cystic and other forms of Lyme, all in combination worked best for me.
Farah
Posts: 208 | From New Mexico | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Hi Mo, We take the encapsulated root powder. I've taken Sarsaparilla for decades, so not just for Lyme. When I found out that it combats syphilis, from the sarsaparilla beer Portuguese sailors drank to lessen symptoms to the studies done in China with smilax for syphilis, it was a short jump to intuit it might work for our very own spirochete, Lyme disease. I think it does and it mixes well with Cat's Claw and Grape Seed Extract. Those three seem to combine well and have some synergism. The Triphala is taken primarily for detox. It's really easier to describe it in terms of what it doesn't do. I cycle it because it is a laxative and it's probably not good to get too dependent on that property.
To Jim: Devil's Claw is particularly good for arthritic symptoms that some have with Lyme. It has a 'cleaning effect' in joints and has even been shown to help regenerate healthy bone tissue. To Uma: No, I haven't read Stephen B's book yet. Our neuro symptoms subsided very quickly (about 8 months) after starting our herbal therapy, but we were vigilant about detoxing. The NAC mentioned above is great for Lymies because it neutralizes the toxins that are a result of the die-off of the Lyme bacteria. The 'herxing' type hangover from taking Cat's Claw for example is almost nullified by taking NAC, folic acid, Triphala, Grape Seed Extract-- you get the idea.
Now I climb on Soapbox/podium-- To those who want immediate results: We all do, but healing from Lyme seems to be a slow process, whether you take antibiotics, anti- fungals, or herbs and natural supplements. My opinion is that the Lyme bacteria is only dealt the death blow when your immune system is firing on all eight cylinders (old full bore V8).
You will notice that many of our picks help your immune system, in time. Unlike antibiotics they are better suited for chronic diseases.
Blue Skies........John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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I will head back to this post and write down what I am doing over the past year and a half.. some elements very similar to yours, at least in properties and some of the same remedies, but others are similar properties but different substances.. I find that interesting.
There is much out there, it has taken me allot of reading (hours a day on average) to put together everything I have needed. Not to mention implementing, you are so right -- there are no quick fixes.
(I did not have a naturopath I was able to utilize in my case when I needed it, so I sat down and got to researching extensively on my own)
Kefir is wonderful, I've been culturing it from my own live grains..and am thinking about getting a couple of goats. This has done leagues more for me than the most expensive probiotic powder or capsule remedies on the market -- including Pharmanex and Threelac..anong others.
Effective intestinal cleansing (liver and GB, too) and live pro-biotic, cutured foods - balance is key...esential IMO and one of the last pieces of the puzzle. Holistics call the intestines your 'second brain'.. if that isn't working, nothing else will. Everything comes in and out through there. Detox, nourishment..The immune system center is there. I had no idea how out of balance mine was (no glaring signs), until I paid careful and long term attention to it. 'Old MD's' (post civil War. pre-industrialization of medicine) docs cured many an ailment (including syphillis, Cancer and leprocy) just by addressing this area effectively. I figure we must need that too, at least.
I have focused much there, and in addition a protocol similar to yours.
Blessings,
Mo
[ 16. January 2006, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
UMA:
I have BOTH. I had 22 of the 35 possible symptoms in Buhner's book.
In addition to the arthritic symtoms in my back, ankles, shoulders, neck and especially my knees; I had brain fog and a continual "hurting" on the top of my brain, everyday, all day. I could hardly see anymore, shouldn't even have been driving.
Was getting to the point that if I even turned around to go and get something, I forgot WHAT it was as soon as I turned around. Used to be IF I went from one building here to another, I might forget before I got there, but now it became instantly.
Please put some paragraphs in your longer posts though as they will be easier to read with the spaces and shorter paragraphs. THanks.
quote:Originally posted by GiGi: Thank you, John, this is great information.
Take care.
Dear GIGI, I really need to communicate with you.....how can I do that???? Thankyou, Jan email [email protected]Posts: 246 | From Illinois | Registered: Jul 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
JWF:
Glad you reported here. I was going to look up Teasel Root, and decided to look in Buhner's book first to see IF he talked about it at all. Well, he not only talks about it, in my early studying, I had underlined many parts of it. But, had totally forgot about it.
He talks about it on pages 157 and 158. He says it has been used with mixed results. He states that it has been reported by practitioner here in Wisconsin and Minnesota to work very well, but not so well out in the Northeast. He attributes that to possible different strains of the Spirochetes.
Practitioners also use it in different strengths, such as Mathew Wood who pioneered its use in Lyme, recommends only 1 to 3 drops 1 to 3 times a day. While other practioners go as high as 10 to 30 drops 1 to 3 times a day. Quite a difference.
HOW much were you and your wife using of it?
I may order some and alternate it with other herbs later. Did you use the tincture or the bulk powedered herb?
posted
hi,this is a good thread. i am again getting confidence that i can beat this disease,thru herbs and homeopathy and supplements. i really do not know how to type properly,spacing the sentences correctly. anyways,i have hardly ever taken antibiotics for lyme and i have nearly gotten better with natural protocols,a few time, in the past 12 years,i think i need to stick on a treatment plan for 3 years,what happened before was i would do a protocol for a few months,feel better and stop for a long time..i think i will stick with a good herbal and alternative protocol for a few years this time..thx everyone.i find people in this group to be more helpful than health care people, as we all are the ones directly experienceing this illness...like i said before all my friends think i look very healthy.it is only when i explain what lyme does to my mind that they start to comprehend,that "i have mental problems"hehe.tmost people have no clue of what lyme does if it is left untreated for years.
Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
ps duh. what key do hit oon keyboard to start a new paragraph,canyou believe that i type with one finger.i need to buy a program to put on my computer,to learn how to type....sorry JB
Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
I know a few folks in the northeast who got well on teasel root, so that's not true about it working best in other parts of the country. But they mainly had arthritic symptoms thats what it works best on.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Hi UMA;
You are doing quite well for one finger.
It is easy, just press the enter button twice, and you will see that it puts a space between the lines.
I am just reporting what Buhner was reporting that the practioners from around the country were reporting.
And he didn't say that it didn't work at all. Just that it wasn't working as good overall out in the northeast as it was in Wisconsin and Minnesota according to the practioners.
posted
jwf, would you please contact me regarding herbal treatment for lyme, I have chronic lyme 14 years. Unfortunately, I need a road map to these treatments which I will not hestiate to try. While I have gotten much better on antibitoics, the number of them I have left to use is dwindling fast. Please email and I will set up a time that we can talk by telphone, if that is okay. thanks Steven
-------------------- Steven Posts: 13 | From detroit lakes, MN | Registered: Jun 2003
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Idesign, recently Gigi posted that she would only respond to her email, not through the private posting here. Look for her thread with email in the subject.
Take care, Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Dear John, Thanks alot for sharig your experience, i have lyme from 1 year and 4 months and detected 6 months ago. I am on english medicine for 6 months.. some times i feel better and some times i will be down for no reason. Then i come across an article on www.mothernature.com and learned that herbal treatment along with english medicine will help. right now i am on bactrim and bioxin( abx) this meds are from my LLMD prescription. And I am using following from herbal-> Echinacea(herbal),Ginseng(herbal),Garlic( using more in my cooking). I am really feeling better day after day, but some times i am still feeling herxed. From your post, i did not understand what to buy from where( sorry i am kind of dumb ). Please kindly help us to know where to buy, what to buy, and how exactly you used it. If anyone interested with my treatment plan(cause i am feeling better) Please ask for it. God Bless all of US -Venkat [email protected]
-------------------- venkat Posts: 23 | From ashburn,va,usa | Registered: Jun 2005
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
I've been following almost all posts concerning herbal/ alternative treatments since I started visiting this site (since I even didn't know I had lyme). I found many of you were very nice and very helpful as I got no dr. to prescribe me antibiotics anyway!
I would like to thank John, as I find that his tips are better than Buhner concerning herx/detox. Buhner knows herbs to kill and quite a few for alleviating lyme symptoms but he is weak on herbs that help herxing, maybe because he's not a sufferer himself. He mainly proposes Sarsaparilla/Smilax only. Only sarsaparilla was never enough for me to alleviate detox as I take it daily 4x day and still get strong herxes.
I'd like to add I found out that Chitosan (a non-expensive supplement made of sea shells or something) does help for neuro detox, at least for me, it calmed down this jittery feeling (or 'explosion' feeling) I had when I killed too many critters. But it takes off Vit B, so must be taken not too often.
I wonder if a lyme sufferer takes the whole 3 'killing' herbs Buhner proposes, and step up until full dosage after a month, and takes only sarsaparilla to detox, what would happen?? I had trouble with herxing with only cats claw, and now can take the whole 4 capsules feew times a day without 'dying', but I wonder if I had started with andrographis altogether!
And I was not sick for too long as many of you here. It took me literally 2 months to reach half the dosage of only one herb, and now one more month to reach the full dosage (but I'm down to 2 capsules as I'm waiting for my next package).
And Mo, how do you do KEFIR and what do you use it for? Like as probiotics? I do goat cheese and yoghurt often. My daugher is allergic to cow milk.
Do I have to buy a starter culture for kefir like yoghurt or is it something like cheese (only an acid to add to the warm milk??
I would like to add that I think I do see light in the end of the tunnel now, even taking no antibiotic. Almost all arthritic pains are gone after months of continuous pain. My left knee (my first lyme symptom) is free of pain for the last few days!! Knock on wood!!
I can do my daily 15 minute jogging uphill without being dead tired after, no more night sweats, no more heart pressure, stabbing pains in the forehead, stiff neck, pain in the vertebral column... I think that even sound sensitivity is gone. Also knock on wood!! I hope it's not a merely one-month cycle of the critters, but I never got that well since I fell sick.
I wonder how are the andrographis people doing? I was thinking to buy it, as I'm not with constant chills anymore and my stomach is MUCH better too. Just to be sure I'll attack the bugs long enough for them to leave me in peace.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
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posted
SELMA:
I am rather SURPRISED you did not take the Andrographis from the very beginning, since THAT IS the number ONE recommended herb by Stephen.
I started out WAY slower than even he recommends in his book, of one pill, once a day. I only took ONE tablet, ONCE a DAY for the first week, then went to one pill, TWO times a day the second week; and one pill three times a day for the third week, then TWO pills three times a day, then THREE tablets, three times a day, then FOUR pills three times a day. I have NEVER gotten up to the FOUR times a day, since I used to only eat two times a day, many days, and have pushed it up to three times a day now, but do NOT want to eat four times a day.
AND I will NOT take the herbs WITHOUT FOOD. Only with my meals, how big or small they are. So if I have to take the herbs for an extra month, I will.
After close to two months on herbs ONLY, I went to the abx Tetracycline. THEN I started herxing. As far as I can tell I never herxed on the herbs, unless you count that I got REALLY sick to my stomach the first couple of times I took the Devils Claw.
HOWEVER, when I got to the END of my Tetracycline regimen, (28 days), I finally herxed pretty hard for about three days, (pain in knee tendons, headaches, very bad vision again, and NOW a stiff neck to some degree again).
I will be starting to treat for Babesia on Saturday, IF my herbs and vitamin C get here in time, and will use Artemisinin and Red Root for that along with Doxycycline and the Vitamin C; Sarsaparilla, (4 capsules, 3 times a day); and some other herbs I don't want to be without, like Devils Claw, Acidophilus, Milk Thistle, Resveratrol, and Stephania Root.
I am strongly considering, dropping the Andrographis and Cats Claw during the next month, then back on them when I drop the artemisin and red root the following month.
MAYBE YOU need to tell us EXACTLY WHAT you call herxing from these herbs?!?!?!
Like I said, I found very little herxing with the herbs, more so with the abx. AND I DO attribute it to the Sarsaparilla that I took from DAY ONE; and other herbs.
WHAT brand of Sarsaparilla do you use, and what dosage, exactly?
The reason I ask is: I just got an answer to my email from Stephen Buhner today, on some Sarsaparilla that I got from StarWest Botanicals, as it turned out to be from India, and according to someone elses post, it is adulterated IF it is from India.
Buhner told me that he recommends all the BULK herbs from RAINTREE Nutrition IF at all possible. And Knotweed from Andrea and Matthias Reisen. Both can be googled.
I have bought a lot from StarWest and from 1st chinese, so now have to decide what ones I want to use and what not to. I may discard the Sarsaparilla or try to send it back and trade it in for the more expensive (better), type.
HE does recommend StarWest Botanicals for their machines and empty capsules though.
And 1stChineseHerbs for bulk polygonum and Stephania Root. Be careful though WHAT you get from 1st chinese, they have more than one type.
I AM considering posting a NEW POST on what I am settling on exactly, since so many have been writing me the past few days on WHAT I recommend.
I can only tell you WHAT I am taking, what is or is not working for ME. I do not have the expertise of someone like Buhner, who has all the access to the many, many practioners, plus the tremendous references, and research HE has done with the help of some others.
HE is the Master Herbalist, not me. I am researhing everyday, but have a LONG ways to go to be called an expert.
posted
JimBoB - The smilax/sarsaparilla that raintree nutrition sells is smilax officinalis. 1stchinese and kalyx are selling smilax glabra (Tu Fu Ling) (Glabrous Greenbrier).
At least I think the smilax 1stchinese sells is glabra, as I believe [Tu Fu Ling] is synonymous for the glabra species.
Every other company that I see sell besides the two I mentioned seem to be selling officinalis.
Almost all of the studies I've seen on pubmed were conducted with glabra, and pretty much all of the traditional use of smilax for spirochetal diseases were done with glabra I believe.
Also, most, if not all of the source studies listed in Buhner's book were of the glabra species.
As far as my knowledge goes, the constituents and actions of species can vary highly. Just wanted to point this out, as a lot of people seem to be using the officinalis. Now the officinalis may still be helpful, but for myself, I think I'm going to buy some glabra from kalyx or 1stchinese tonight, as I wanted to add it to my regimen.
-------------------- "You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum Posts: 242 | From South NJ | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Of the many varieties of Sarsaparilla, the active compounds are very much the same. Both the Mexican and Chinese varieties are known to combat syphilis and by extrapolation Lyme disease.
I've taken both and could tell no difference. A good rule of thumb, all else being roughly equal, is to take the herb that grows nearest your home.
A Smilax root from Mexico was introduced into European medicine in 1536, where it developed a strong following as a cure for syphilis and rheumatism.
Blue Skies........John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Hi: The Sarsaparilla that I have been buying from 1st Chinese is the Mexican kind from StarWest Botanicals.
I have just recently got the Plum Flower brand from 1st Chinese, but haven't used it yet. I haven't read the label closely, but I imagine IT is from China. I am sure it will be more difficult to encapsulate as it will be a finer powder with NO preservatives.
-------------------- "You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum Posts: 242 | From South NJ | Registered: Dec 2006
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