posted
i wondered about this point myself.for me,if i will do 3-6 months of allergy research group artemisinin,when/if i need to deal with babs.i am not clear if i have it or not.my lyme friend,jim d.,has started on very strong,allergy research group super artemisinin,and he is herxsing a lot.my doc, says the best way to tell if you have babs,is to take artemisinin for a month,100-200 mg 2x a day and see if you herx.if you do keep going for 3 months at least.taking it with grapefruit juice.some docs cycle folks on and off it,for some reason.
Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Am wondering why on people on artemisinin take grapefriut juice with it?
I have a hard time with citris with my stomach and wondered how important it is to take artemisinin with grapefuit and why ?
take care
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
If you have a clotting problem, such as clotting too much, then it probably would NOT be good to take Red Root. Stick to the Artemisinin and the proper abx instead.
Buhner states in his book that Red Root is an exceptionally strong blood coagulant.
Also states, however, that no side affects have been noted, but also states that it is contraindicated for those using coagulants or aniticoagulants or in pregnancy.
Havn't heard anything on the grapefruit juice thing.
posted
Pak J Pharm Sci. 2005 Oct;18(4):45-57. Related Articles, Links
You might want to read this abstract, but there are many studies re grapefruit juice and how it interacts with the metabolism of some substances
Nelly
Grape fruit juice-drug interactions.
Arayne MS, Sultana N, Bibi Z.
Department of Chemistry, University of Karachi, Karachi 75270. [email protected]
Grapefruit juice can markedly augment oral drug bioavailability was originally based on an unexpected observation from an interaction study between the dihydropyridine calcium channel antagonist, felodipine, and ethanol in which grapefruit juice was used to mask the taste of the ethanol. Subsequent investigations showed that grapefruit juice acted by reducing presystemic felodipine metabolism through selective post-translational down regulation of cytochrome P450 3A4 (CYP3A4) expression in the intestinal wall. Since the duration of effect of grapefruit juice can last 24h, repeated juice consumption can result in a cumulative increase in felodipine AUC and C(max). Clinically relevant interactions seem likely for most dihydropyridines, terfenadine, saquinavir, cyclosporin, midazolam, triazolam and verapamil and may also occur with lovastatin, cisapride and astemizole (Guo et al., 2000). The high variability of the magnitude of effect among individuals appeared dependent upon inherent differences in enteric CYP3A4 protein expression such that individuals with highest baseline CYP3A4 had the highest proportional increase. At least 20 other drugs have been assessed for an interaction with grapefruit juice metabolism mediated by CYP3A4 appear affected by grapefruit juice. Clinically relevant interactions seem likely for most dihydropyridines, terfenadine, saquinavir, cyclosporin, midazolam, triazolam and verapamil and may also occur with lovastatin, cisapride and astemizole. The importance of these interactions appears to be influenced by individual patient susceptibility, type and amount of grapefruit juice and administration-related factors. Although in vitro findings support the flavonoid, naringin, or the furanocoumarin, 6', 7'-dihydroxybergamottin, as being active ingredients. A recent investigation indicated that neither of these substances made a major contribution to grapefruit juice-drug interactions in humans (Guo et al., 2000).
PMID: 16380358 [PubMed - in process]
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
As Nelly's abstract points out- grape fruit juice is an inhibitor of one the metabolic pathways: 3A4, 5 and 7 .
Some Docs- that know what they're doing- will prescribe an inhibitor of a specific pathway along with another drug that interacts with it to cause a synergistic, additive or cumulative effect - but that should really be monitored as toxicity issues can arise in some people.
Here's an excellenent site which should be read if you suspect Babesia or Malaria.
cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
Thanks Bpeck. Great site. Confirms my feeling that I also have babesia. I didnt realize it too comes with many differing symptoms. I have quit a few and will talk this over at my next LLMD appt.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Just curious about the use of a coagulant when it comes to lyme.
I believe many of us have thick blood to begin with as a symptom of lyme...some use anticoagulant meds like heparin to thin it out some...
I think a coagulant would be contraindicitive for we lymies...
Just a thought..zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
The reason for the grapefruit juice is NOT to increase the uptake in this case. Go to my site, Protocols, Klinghardt Protocol and read about it there. It is discussed in his article. Thanks
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Yes, that's right, I remember reading about this now but I had forgotten. Something to do with an enzyme that progressively disables the artemisinin in the gut and the grapefruit juice stops this enzyme from being produced, so that one can keep on using the artemisinin.
But in my case, I have found that the artemisinin keeps on producing herxing (or whatever you want to call it) well over the 3 week period in which the art is supposedly destroyed by this enzyme. In fact the effect of art just seemed to get stronger over time when I was using it. And I was using less than what Klinghardt and Buhner suggest for eg.
In fact I just re-read the bit in Buhner's book about the use of artemisinin for babesiosis and I am finding it strange that he should say that there no side-effects with artemisinin except digestive when used at high doses. For me it was the hardest drug I took, harder than Lariam and harder than atovaquone (Mepron), harder than minocycline, harder than tinidazole.
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Thanks Nellypoints for posting this article.
Unfortunately my lyme brain can't figure the science of it.
I wish I could understand the grapefruit thing. Could not figure out if taking grapefuit with art is a good thing
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used Artimisinin (Holley pharmaceuticals) at 100mg 3x a day, and pulsed it.. 4 days on and 3 off.
I did that based on their research on Artimisinin tx in cancer and malaria, and the fact that Artimisinin blood concentrations drop precipitously after 3 days.
Tracking my symptoms and fever responses, I saw that to be true in my experience as well..
I wonder if this enzyme reaction has to do with that drop? And if the pulsing may preclude the need for grapefuit seed extract? (I also felt pulsing tricked the parasite nicely, as Artimisinin works great on what's in the blood, and we know that Babs buds out of certain tissues and repopulates.. the idea was to keep hitting the new born population in the RBC's.
Anyway, after trying Riamet (to great effect in my case, but symptoms relapsed after each course I tried - note - I believe I had a resistant case due to many months on Mepron and other anti-M's) .. So, I then went to Artimisinin, pulsed as described above.. and within 6 months, my babesia symptoms were gone, and have not returned in over a year and a half. I was doing other things, such as diet, Sarsparilla tea and some other supports.. however, I kept a careful log of fever tracking, bloodwork, and symptoms that tracked along with my Artimisinin protocol.
Just my experience.....
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Thanks Scott I went to your webb site & tryed to understand the aricle;
My lyme brain isn't working this week
So is it good to take a glass of grapefriut with the art?
I took a glass this morning but now am concerned it may counter act with my abx I take along with the art.
Thanks
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I also don't know what to think about Artemisinin. I took it for months and it did absolutely nothing -- I continued to deteriorate.
Actually, it DID do something. It elevated my liver enzymes!
All the while I was on tons of IV and oral antibiotics, my liver enzymes remained normal. Months later when I was on no antibiotics, but was taking Artemisinin, my liver went haywire.
Can someone explain that?
Posts: 81 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Sorry to be so stupid still:
Does anyone know yes or no if it is good to take grapefruit juice with the art?
I am also taking art,biaxin,doxy,plaq,tindamax,nystatin
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Nelly: WHAT do you mean by HARDER?
From what I have read in Buhner's book on Healing Lyme, Artemisinin seems to have the MOST side affects of all the herbs I have read about.
He states: SIDE EFFECTS: Artemisinin in high doses can cause gastrointestinal upset -- loss of appetite, nausea, cramping, diarrhea, vomiting. Very high doses (5000 mg a day of artemisinin for three days) have caused liver inflammation. It resolves upon discontinuing the herb.
Contraindications: Should be used with caution in pregnancy, especially in the first trimester.
Of all the herbs I take, none have these many minus indications.
This is one herb I would be careful to follow the instructions carefully and keep monitering HOW you feel while doing so.
Brain-blowing headaches that went on for weeks until I stopped in fact.
And BTW, artemisinin is not "a herb", it is the active ingredient in the plant, Artemesia annua. So in fact it is a drug, and a very poweful one against malaria for eg, it also has anti-cancer properties according to some studies.
And yes we are in agreement, Stephen Buhner states that the side effects to be expected when using artemisinin are gastro-intestinal, but my experience is different.
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
Yes. Grapefruit is good to take with Artemisinin. It's supposed to help keep away some enzyme in the stomach that makes the Art ineffective. I was told that even with the grapefruit juice though, you should use Art for 3 weeks, then off one week.
As far as the other things you're taking, Google each one for the prescribing information/contraindications. If grapefruit juice is contraindicated with any of them, it should tell you.
Yes - grapefruit juice IS recommended with Art.
-Connie Posts: 81 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Hey Connie You put it simple terms my simple brain can understand Thank you very much.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[hi]](graemlins/hi.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic