posted
well, and more bad news. my doc called to say i had to stop my IV Rocephin cuz my liver enzymes had "started to go up." the alt was round 118.
well, i took a week off and my alt went up to around 450 or so! can't believe it. no idea why...
and to boot, i did get a slight fever so they took some blood through my line and cultured it, and it is infected. so they are pulling the line today, and culturing the tip to see what it is.
[doc says while we may try IV again sometime (if my liver doesn't fall out) - it won't ever be Rocephin again...]
i can't figure out why my liver is goin' nuts, i've been off the rocephin for more than a week, but it MIGHT have been all the "Oreganol" I have been taking this week... who knows?
Ann-OH
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2020
posted
Glad they caught the infection quickly, though. I know Rocephin can be hard on the gall bladder, so it might have something to do with your liver probs too. Hope you get it all under control soon. Ann - OH
posted
My guess is that it is because of the oregano. You were doing too much by adding it to the Rocephin. Did your LLMD know that you were using it? That's the trouble that people get into by taking herbs. For some reason people think that herbs are relatively harmless because they are natural. Well it ain't so. It cracks me up when lyme patients say that they are pretty much cured and don't have to take abx anymore. But the thing is is that they are still taking Samento (TOA Cats Claw), which is just like taking a quinalone. There are a lot of powerful herbs that can hurt you. Oregano and Samento are just 2 of them.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
quote:Originally posted by Porsche: My guess is that it is because of the oregano. You were doing too much by adding it to the Rocephin. Did your LLMD know that you were using it? That's the trouble that people get into by taking herbs. For some reason people think that herbs are relatively harmless because they are natural. Well it ain't so. It cracks me up when lyme patients say that they are pretty much cured and don't have to take abx anymore. But the thing is is that they are still taking Samento (TOA Cats Claw), which is just like taking a quinalone. There are a lot of powerful herbs that can hurt you. Oregano and Samento are just 2 of them.
Well! I guess a Lyme patient's misery is not in vain so long as it provides a source of amusement to others, i.e., 'cracks them up.'
Bb, I didn't know you were on anything but the Theralac, which shouldn't have done anything but bolster your good bacteria (or what's left of them!).
I, the original carb-sucking, Chardonnay-sipping frequent offender, am not about to chide anyone for anything, and in any event it would be too late if that's what caused it. But I do know my own LLMD would slap me silly if I even take a multivitamin without letting him know. So that's certainly a good rule for everyone to be aware of, with good reason.
Hopefully, your liver numbers will fall fast and whatever infection you have will be caught early and easily controlled.
Hey - it seems not many of us get through the whole PICC experience without a mishap or two. Look at Timaca! Witness the flying gallbladders! This will pass and perhaps you will try again.
Try not to worry too much. You're on the path to getting better and these are just bumps. Let us know what you find out.
Hugs,
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Bb, i am curious as to how much oreganol you were taking. It may have nothing to do with it and if the doctor was culturing for infection that would be my bet. Infections are known for raising liver enzymes.
Just a thought. pattiecake
Posts: 687 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Posted by Michelle: Well! I guess a Lyme patient's misery is not in vain so long as it provides a source of amusement to others, i.e., 'cracks them up.'
I really wish that people would read things a few times to make sure that they got it right before they make STUPID accusations about what someone else posted!
Reread what I said Michelle because you got it wrong. What "Cracks Me Up" has nothing to do with Bb's liver enzyme problem, or the pain that any other lymie goes through. It has to do with them believing that they are off of abx because they are only taking Samento, or some other high powered Potentially Damaging Herb" like oregano.
So many people are discouraged from posting on lymenet because of problems like this. They make harmless remarks that were never intended to mean what someone interpreted them to mean, and then that person just has to go and make some stupid accusation in print. I mean really Michelle, was it that difficult a post to figure out? And even if it was for you, there was no need for you to make a reference to what I said.
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timaca
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6911
posted
BorreliaBrain~
Sorry for your troubles. I hope your liver calms down soon.
I'll be interested to hear if your picc tip cultures out anything (mine didn't).
They ended up sending the blood taken from a picc to another lab for fungal identification, for the local lab could not identify it. They may know in another week or so.
Post what your infection is if it gets identified. I'd be curious.
Hang in there....Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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So what happened? Are you OK? Did your enzymes get straightened out?
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minoucat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5175
posted
Hi BB. Been down so long it looks like up, huh?! Big hugs and hang in there.
I don't know what might have caused such an elevation -- perhaps the PICC infection might have contributed also? Maybe a virus flare? (the hubby had several different viruses at one point, around the time that his enzymes were quite high -- but he was also on IV, so it's hard to say what the root cause was. Also, I've no idea how long it takes for liver enzymes to elevate and then subside-- you might still be dealing with the aftermath of the Rocephin?.
The liver is such a major organ for toxin clearance that almost anything can contributes to liver overload, even emotional stress -- see Immune Support).
From what I've read, high doses of oregano can be toxic to the liver, but it also may be that die off from any yeast that the oregano killed may have caused elevated enzymes. A number of papers that I read stated pretty emphatically that candida die off can put a load on the liver as well as cause a significant herx.
The good news is that high liver enzymes do not correlate to liver damage:
What do elevated AST and ALT mean? (from mednet.com)
AST (SGOT) and ALT (SGPT) are sensitive indicators of liver damage from different types of disease. But it must be emphasized that higher-than-normal levels of these liver enzymes should not be automatically equated with liver disease. They may mean liver problems or they may not. The interpretation of elevated AST and ALT levels depends upon the whole clinical picture and so it is best done by doctors experienced in evaluating liver disease.
The precise levels of these enzymes do not correlate well with the extent of liver damage or the prognosis (outlook). Thus, the exact levels of AST (SGOT) and ALT (SGPT) cannot be used to determine the degree of liver disease or predict the future. For example, patients with acute viral hepatitis A may develop very high AST and ALT levels (sometimes in the thousands of units/liter range). But most patients with acute viral hepatitis A recover fully without residual liver disease.
****
I know you're pretty educated about this stuff, but if you need additional info about liver flushes/liver support, I'll be glad to share what I have.
Best of luck, and please let us know how things go.
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
Thanks for reviving this, I did mean to post an update. And thanks for remembering me...
So let's see... Timaca, what actually happened was that the blood culture was + for Staph so they pulled the line... and two days later like an idiot I took a trip out of state.
Well, while I was away I developed a 102 degree fever, so I called my doc, who told me that the they were able to culture Staph right off the tip of the line, but that it was a Staph that was sensitive to Rocephin so it should be ok.
So I ran that fever for about five days, and had some gnarly diarrhea with it to boot (as a result I lost A LOT of weight and look like a skeleton - not pretty).
Doc did NOT give me further abx for this (mostly because I didn't want them), although he did check my heart pretty thoroughly. It seems that I've developed a new heart-murmur, but otherwise things are ok. I am, however, going to see a cardiologist just to be sure. Swell eh?
Pattiecake, I had been taking about 6 to 8 drops per day of Oreganol or more, which I stopped as soon as I heard about my liver enzymes.
I think Minoucat is right its almost impossible to know what did it, the oil or the Rocephin - but either way, I was probably taking waaaay too much Oreganol. Although, to be clear, I never took both together, I took the Oreganol afer stopping Rocephin.
Thanks Minoucat - its good to know I may not have seriously damaged anything. I've taken a liver test since, the ALT is back down to normal (thank goodness), and the only thing still elevated is the GST, which doc say may take a while to come down.
So in the meantime... my doc told me to go to the Zhang clinic and get on his Lyme herbs. I did that last week, and to my shock they gave me a lot of "die off" (gas and rumbling and stuff) and some herxing and now I actually feel better!
My mood is greatly improved, and so is cognition somewhat. Energy and sleep are worse - lots of fatigue, but I guess that's "good" in a way.
Its weird. We are all so different. I've read posts where people say they have no luck whatsoever with the Zhang herbs - but I wanted to report at least preliminary success with them.
I am going to ATTEMPT to do a course of Mepron with Biaxin and Riamet (which I have obtained from overseas) in a few weeks. Doc Zhang says its ok to combine his herbs with abx, and he is giving me some liver herbs as well - but I will keep a close watch on those enzymes while I do this.
OK - I think that's everything. Sorry its sooo long I just wanted to be thorough. Thanks again for thinking about me and for bringing this up as its good to get our "stories" out there. I really am so glad this board is here.
trails
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1620
posted
should you be looking at the possibility of joining the C.Diff club BB?? Diahreah plus fever after picc line is pulled...hmmmmmmm
Also liver enzyme blood tests are not time sensitive...meaning, you cant get tested every day coz the liver takes time to recoup and reduce or build up and put out the enzymes. You can still procude lots of enzymes AFTER things return to normal with infections, etc. That prolly wasnt clear.
Also Porche--I think you were harsh on Michelle M. No need to call someone or their comments STUPID. MM is a great resource and friend to many here. I interpretted her comment as one of humor not one of stupidity.
Trails
Posts: 1950 | From New Mexico | Registered: Sep 2001
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
Hi Bb! Welcome back from ex PICC land! Glad you didn't join Timaca's club, well -- not entirely. I'm happy to hear the herbs are helping you and that you are making progress and feeling better cognitively.
Perhaps the next abx combo will be just right and it sounds like you're 'loaded for bear' so far as your liver goes this time.
Luck & healing!
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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just wanted to add that I DID get tested for C. Diff when i was having the umm, runs, and it was negative. whatever is doing it is not c. diff - but it sure is somepin. i've had a few boughts of it on and off since.
still on the Zhang herbs and still herxing away on them. they are def. doing something and hitting something that the abx never did... its hard to explain.
can't get outtta bed and feel "fluey" a lot on them, its harder to get to sleep but i'm sleeping much longer and mood and congnition def. better.
Zhang gave me liver herbs and gallstone herbs as well... who knows? will continue to report.
adding biaxin, mepron and riamet next week or week after - oh boy...
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