posted
Hello everyone: I am writing this because I have had SO MANY people on this list PM me that past few days, asking what I am doing with herbs, where to get them and other questions.
Hopefully this Post will answer many of your questions. I am writing the same things over and over to different people, individually. I enjoy writing to you all but it is time consuming to keep repeating myself, so hope this will get you down to a few questions, pertinent to something unique. You may also ask here on this post and I will keep checking back, and everyone can view the answers. Okay?
Most of you know that I have had great trouble with my local GP duck, trying to get him give me the Bowen test or another that might be close to as good, and he has refused and is hiding from me. Nor will he give me any antibiotics, as HE feels you ARE cured with 21 days of antibiotics.
So, that all led me to HAVE to go to Herbs, (which I am glad I did), for relief and have added some simple, easy to get abx.
So here is the list of what I am currently using as far as herbs, but am adding and/or subtracting herbs or abx as time goes on. Partly to confuse the Spirochetes as much as possible and partly to treat different bacteria attacks.
I MUST also say, to NOT just take MY word for all this, as I am NOT a doctor of people; only a Doctor of Motors.
I am slowly changing my food intake too, along with the herbs to at least try to lead a more healthy life.
I also strongly recommend reading Stephen Buhner's book "Healing Lyme". It has the latest and very useful information in it. It IS cheap and you can order it at Amazon.com simply by clicking on the advertisement to the left of this post and following the directions. Also, by clicking on the adv., you help out LymeNet as a portion of the profits are donated to help keep it going.
I started out taking Sarsaparilla (Smilax), Cat's Claw, and Devil's Claw for about 10 days, before I added Andrographis and Resveratrol.
I was having terrible stomach pains and the feeling of nausea for about two weeks before I started my herbal regimen last November 25th, 2005, so started out much slower than Buhner recommended in his Healing Lyme book. He recommends starting with one of each of his primary protocol three times a day. I started on one tablet, once a day. Then after a week, went to one tablet, three times a day, then a week later, two pills, three times a day, then a week later, three pills, three times a day; then to 4 pills, three times a day.
Buhner recommends going to 4 pills, 4 times a day, if possible. But with my stomach problems, and the fact I ALWAYS take them WITH my meals, and I don't want to eat 4 times a day, I have settled on just three times a day, and will probably have to take them a month or so longer than IF I had done it 4 times a day. He does recommend to back of though IF we have problems handling so many pills.
I must state here, I do not take ALL pills at the 4/3 amount. On the Devil's claw, I only take them 4 of each, TWO times a day. I don't take them real late at night, as they cause more gas and I can't afford that when I am sleeping with my system. YOU might be able to do fine. Also the Devil's Claw made me nauseous the first couple of days I took them, but that subsided after a few days, and I don't get sick from them any more, and I would not want to be without them.
I only take 2 Acidophilus 3 times a day.
I take ONE, (1), Milk Thistle, 3 times a day.
I take Three Andrographis at my last time of the day.
I take 2 Cat's Claw each time now, but that is because I am taking Source Natural's 1000mg tablets instead of the 500mg tablets, now. This is still three times a day.
I take Nettle Leaf Powder, one capsule, three times a day.
And one vitamin E 400IU, once a day.
I also started taking Wholesale Nutritions C-Salts, effervescent vitamin C, today. It is, according to Buhner, THE recommended vitamin C to take. He recommends taking 3000mg a day for Lyme Disease and by capsules of Ascorbic acid your stomach probably won't last too long, especially with the abx and herbs too.
I only order my C from Wholesale Nutritions, so far, though they do have other vitamins also. I got their largest C-Salt bottle, as it is much cheaper in the long run that way.
NOT all companies have ALL the herbs I take, so I order from multiple companies.
I order from: VitaCost Herbs-Wholesale 1stChineseHerbs StarWest Botanicals myvitanet You can Google to find any of these.
You can order online from any of them, except it will be MUCH better to order from Wholesale Nutrition by phone on their 800 line. They said you can order by email, but Buhner says you will NEVER get your order that way, order by phone. You can get their phone and other info by Google too.
Buhner says you need to be on his protocol for 8 to 12 months. Starting out slow, building to maximum, maintaining that for 60 days or more, then slowly backing down, IF no symptoms come back. IF they do, go back up for awhile.
I had terrible brain fog and very poor vision before I started, along with the painful knees and tendons, terrible pain in left shoulder, headaches, sore and stiff neck, stomach pains, chest pains, asthma, arthritis, disintegrating teeth, eye floaters, sore throat, sore back, etc..
Most of those symptoms have either lessened considerably or disappeared completely.
The only strong herxing I have done was after I quit taking the tetracycline a week ago. But that is much better now. Tomorrow, Jan. 27, 2006, I will quit taking andrographis and cat's claw for a month, while I am treating the possibility of Babesia with Artemisinin, Red Root, plus whatever else I am already taking, along with adding 400mg of doxycycline a day.
IF you DO have Babesia, it is recommended you get rid of it first, so it is easier to get rid of the Lyme itself.
I am also quiting the Resveratrol (Knotweed), as I will be having a tooth extracted and there could be bleeding problems if taking Resveratrol just prior to surgery. It is recommended to quit it for at least 10 days before the surgery. I will resume taking it a few days after surgery.
ONE of the things about doing MORE herbs and LESS Abx, is much fewer side affects. THIS is GOOD!
I had fantastic results after only a few days of herbs. Your results MAY be different IF you have already been on heavy abx.
It is believed that the majority of people will not eliminate Lyme and its co-infections with Abx alone. SOME will. For the rest, who either have relapsed on Abx, or have seen little positive results, there is hope. At least TRY Herbs to help you get rid of those ugly little bugs.
Buhner recommends Raintree Nutrition for as many of the herbs in his protocol and expanded protocol that you can get, if possible. He feels the quality and ethical harvesting of the herbs are second to none at Raintree and worth the little extra price. But of course that is YOUR choice.
It is MUCH cheaper to get the herbs in bulk, than already in pills, for the most part. It does take time to encapsulate the herbs, but probably about 1/8th the cost. This can be a considerable savings when on the maximum protocol.
Organic whenever possible, is usually better, but also more expensive. Again, your choice.
Hope this helps answer your questions. IF not, ask them in a post below.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
HI Jim, thanks for the info!
Just to ask another of your previous post concerning herxing. I started on toa-free cat's claw without sarsaparilla. I took it before I read Buhner's book. I herxed with arthritic pains all over. Got liver pains, had to stop.
Many here started using andrographis some time ago, and many herxed with it. I don't know how many were using cleansing herbs, but you can just do a search and see. I was afraid of taking it because the Chinese consider it a cold herb, and one of my most horrible symptoms was constant cold. And I always suffered from stomach/GI and that herb could be strong on that too. I will now try to take it too in the near future.
Then took Cats Claw (full herb), got arthritic pains all over even with 500mg 3x day. I was taking the recommended dose of Smilax, 450mg 4 x day. But I always took the killing herbs on empty stomach, not like you.
It took about a month to feel that whole herb Cats claw hits also hard on my liver. But it's true that I didn't increase the dosage to mmore than 4 times 900mg sarsaparilla.
When I took artemisinin high dose, I was on Smilax 900mg 3x day, but I lowered the dose of milk thistle/ arthichoke because I didn't want to interphere with artemisinin (recommended to be use 4 hours apart from food and most supplements). I herxed tons!!! And did end up taking Chitosan and having to do extra jogging to get rid of the neuro herxes.
I think I must stop smilax to see what happens, but I feel my liver is almost alwasys on its limit(if I stop milk thistle or artichoke, or Hepatodorum, it will ache). I don't know if I herxed more because I was also on salt/C parallel to the herbs??
Who knows it?
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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I haven't sent you a PM yet but was thinking about it. But you pretty much answered my questions.
I have Buhner's book too and think its awesome. I haven't done the complete protocol yet becaue I just started a regime of antibiotics that I want to see how that works.
But I have started adding the herbs, andrographis, artemesia, resveratrol and smilax to tolerance. The abx gives me herxes of all degrees and my LLMD told me to be careful about adding the herbs and increasing the herx. He is completely in favor of herbs but simply advises caution with taking too many things at once.
Please keep posting your progress, I'm watching it and am so happy for you. I truly believe that I can help the healing process with these herbs.
I have taken Buhner's book to my cardiologist in St. Louis and said the lyme carditis info was perfectly accurate. I almost fell out of my chair!
Thanks and best of luck! Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Hi Chronic:
Glad you are at least starting the herbs. In the long run THAT is what is going to do it for you, especially IF you have had Lyme for awhile.
Dr. K. is also leaning more and more toward the herbs, it appears.
Most of us have become Immune as it were to antibiotics. Way too many over the years. When I was 6 years old, back in 1947, I had polio and was in the hospitial for almost three months. MOST of that time I was given milk of magnesia and a shot of penicillin every four hours in the butt. I felt like a Pin Cushion after awhile.
I have had many antibiotics through the years since then.
GiGi has many good points too on what we need to do.
I am studying a book right now on The Respiratory Solution. WOW, I can't believe how much info is out there, yet the mainstream medical types are so ignorant.
This book is on Molds, allergies, etc., that give most of the same symptoms of Lyme D.
I bought two other books from Amazon.com at the same time and wanted to read all of them at once, but wasn't making any real headway by reading a little in each one each day, so since I have asthma and some mold issues at this old house, I decided to read this one first.
The MD that wrote this leans towards natural healing also. Very good books so far. I will report what I get out of it in a nutshell when I get done with it.
WILD Oregeno and other spices are his leanings. He states that many of the respiratory diseases we have such as Asthma, bronchitis, etc., are reversible with Natural Foods and Herbs, but NOT with antibiotics.
I take the Sarsaparilla, 4 450mg capsules, which is 1800mg x 3 = 5400mg a day.
I feel THIS is super important. Cleansing the blood is SO important. Also don't stop the Milk Thistle, it is necessary to keep your liver detoxed. Plus the Acidophilus is also important to get your immune system back up to par.
The Andrographis is the number one herb to KILL the spirochetes, but it is a very bitter herb. Put some on your tongue, you will see. I took tablets at first, but recently changed over to the capsules. NOW I do not dread taking them. However, I stopped taking them last night, as I am starting on the Babesia for a month. Then will go back to the Andrographis. I have also stopped the Resveratrol for the next two weeks so I can have a tooth extracted.
I was taking Andrographis 4 pills 3 times a day, but at the end, I cut it down to 3 pills, 3 times a day, as my stomach was getting worse and worse. I think the main culpret was the Tetracycline. As it got better a few days after I got off of my 28 day regimen.
Now with the Doxycycline, (only took two 100mg for today, the first day), and the Artemesia annua whole herb I ended up with diarrhea tonight. WIll see WHAT happens tomorrow. Plan on upping the doxy up to 400mg total tomorrow.
I also started the C-salts, and did not notice any stomach problems from them. Only did about 2500mg of them today. Will up that to approximately 3000mg tomorrow.
One other thing that I am using is the Sali Pipe, (salt pipe), that I bought from the UK. It has helped tremendously with my bronchial tube pain. Nothing else has worked so far for that.
I would be absolutely SURE to take ALL the herbs WITH food of SOME kind. I would NOT do it any other way. Has GOT TO be very hard on the stomach when empty. I did take one drink of the C-salts without anything, just to see HOW my stomach reacted, and it was fine.
One thing good about the C-salts for me is that it has Potassium in it too. And with my illeostomy I do not assimilate potassium, salt or water very well. So have to do as much as I can with them.
I am also wondering, since I do not have a colon, that maybe THAT is a factor for not herxing as much as others?!?!?! I don't know about that one. Does anyone out there know the answer to that?
Thanks for the reply. I'm wondering what happened to Daniella, I think she was doing this protocol too. I would love to know her progress.
Have you answered this question yet? What herbs do you buy in bulk? Do they come powdered and ground up to put in capsules?
I do make a lot of my own capsules of things like turmeric, ginger, cayenne that help my respiratory system and inflammation.
Thanks again for being so willing to share your info.
Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
YES, I buy many herbs in bulk and ALL have been in powder form for capsules, EXCEPT for the StarWest, Perwinkle Herb C/S Organic; and RED ROOT, which needs to be in a tincture 1:5 50% alcohol.
I just got it two days ago, and am wondering WHAT KIND of alcohol, and WHERE is the best place to buy it?
ANYONE KNOW?
In bulk I have Starwest Botanicals Sarsaparilla. (this is from India, do NOT get it, Indian sarsaparilla is adulterated and Buhner told me he would NOT use adulterated product, so I just wrote StarWest about returning it).
I also have StarWest Milk Thistle seed pwd; Ginger Root pwd; Nettle Leaf pwd; Yohimbe bark pwd.
I also have Powder Herbs that I bought from 1stChineseHerbs and are the Plum Flower Brand, vacuum/nitrogen sealed, NO adulteration/preservatives. They are Artemisia annua L and Stephania Root.
A couple of the StarWest Botanical herbs above are actually sold by 1stChineseHerbs.com.
Buhner recommends to get your BULK herbs from Raintree Nutrition. They are a little more expensive there but he is sure they are ALL of the highest quality.
You shouldn't have to return something to them because it is adulterated. You will have to decide for yourself. It is NOT that you can't get high quality items from other places, it is just that they sometimes have more than one price for items without explaining WHY, and us newbies don't always put two and two together to come up with the right answer, and end up ordering the "cheapest", finding out later - it really ISN'T the cheapest in the long run.
But I DID order some organic stuff from Starwest. Also Plum Flower Brand appears to be from conscienteous people and of high quality.
I ALSO have the Plum Flower Brand, Single Herb Extract in a 3.5 ounce plastic jar, (which will be neat for storing nuts and bolts, or?, later) of Hu Zhang; (Chinese Knotweed, resveratrol). I have not used it yet, as I still have some in commercially done capsules.
I guess I am of that opinion, because MOST of what I had read on this group was written about the "other" things he uses when I first got on here last November.
Then I started seeing more and more posts on his using herbs, and with THAT, I got a lot more respect for him and his skills.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
HI jim, thanks again for the informative post about where to get the bulk herbs. It does get too expensive otherwise. Specially for me, that have to import everyhing , pay the DHL, plus taxes here in Switzerland everytime I ask for a single package!
I will try higher doses of Sarsaparilla as I feel cats claw start to affect my liver (got liver pains after taking the evening dose). I had such liver pains with the toa-free version all the time but the whole herb cats claw started to give me pains only now.
I will go for another high dose Artemisinin for a second time even though I have no babesia symptom (I think) and then will see what to do next.
I have bought a garlic crusher (does this word exist in English??) to crush garlic in greater amounts and do a pesto to eat it 3-4 times a day!!
I can't stand raw garlic eaten fresh (I can't stop burping for the whole day!!!), but hope to stand it if consumed a little later, a day or so after crushing it.
Someone suggested an interesting article about garlic properties, take a look at it too if you're interested:
It speaks about different forms of garlic for consumption and about allicin.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Boy, I am not used to Herxing. But NOW I am. I will be glad once I get done with the abx in a couple of months.
I am having some of my early symptoms back that I have not exeperienced in over two months. I was wondering IF it was because I had stopped Resveratrol, and Andrographis; or if it was for taking the Artemisia annua.
BUT, I think maybe it is a herx.
Sore throat, plugged sinuses, pain in chest for first time since I started herbs, some brain fog, sore itchy eyes, and some calf pain and knee pain back. Hope to tough it out for this next 25 days, to finish the Artemisinin and Doxycycline, and red root.
I still haven't taken my red root yet, as no one has answered my question in a post above, as to WHAT KIND of alcohol to use in mixing up a tincture of the red root.
Keep working at it Selma. Can't give up now. I havn't gotten into the garlic yet, but am reading on olive leaf extract and oregano, and have ordered some of each.
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Hi Jim, sorry to hear you're herxing so much... But it could be for a good reason. Are you still on sarsaparilla, strong doses?
I can't help you with the alcohol for your tincture, I'm sure that there are people here that know about that.
You could call a homeopathic provider, they use basically tinctures for most of their preparations!
I think I also went through short episodes of dry coughs with artemisinin but they went away fast.
I also started the fresh garlic stuff, Gosh, I do feel I can't talk to anyone today!
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Found that in Rain-Tree site:
Tinctures A tincture is an alcohol and water extract which is used when plants have active chemicals that are not very soluble in water, and/or when a larger quantity is prepared for convenience and wanted for longer term storage. Many properly prepared plant tinctures can last several years or more without losing potency. The percentage of alcohol usually helps determine it's shelf-life: the more alcohol used, the longer the shelf life. Sometimes the percentage of alcohol and water is unique to the herbs that are used as some active ingredients are more soluble in alcohol and others more soluble in water. The type of alcohol can vary. . . from vodka, rum, or 90 to 180 proof grain alcohol (sold as "everclear" in liquor stores and sometimes cheaper than vodka). Vodka is fine, but remember if it says 40 proof; it is 40% alcohol and the rest is water. In the Amazon, a sugar-cane alcohol resembling rum and called aguardiente is often used to prepare plant tinctures and it is 40 to 50% alchohol. To prepare a tincture with a shelf-life of at least one year, plan on using a minimum of 40% alcohol and the balance distilled water unless otherwise noted in the plant information in section 3. Use a clean glass bottle or jar with tight fitting lid or cork. Use a dark colored bottle (like a recycled green/amber wine bottle) or plan on storing the bottle out of the sunlight. When working with dried plants, use two ounces of plant material (cut or powder) for every 8 ounces (1 cup) of liquid. Since many cut herbs can be bulky, measure the amount of cut herb by weight and not volume (ie; most cooks would tell you 2 tablespoons of butter is 1 ounce... however a lightweight bulky leaf is not as heavy as butter in the same volume or by the tablespoon). A "standard 4:1 tincture" usually means 1 part herb to 4 parts liquid (or as above, 1 ounce herb to 4 ounces of liquid). To prepare approximately 1 cup of tincture (some of the liquid will be absorbed by the dry plant material) place 2 ounces of the herb (cut up or powdered) into your clean glass container. Pour 1/2 cup (4 ounces) of distilled water and 1/2 cup (4 ounces) of 90 proof alcohol into the container (or just use 1 cup of straight 40 proof vodka and no water). Seal the container and store at room temperature away from direct sunlight. Shake the bottle/jar at least once daily while allowing it to soak/extract for at least two weeks (larger woody cut herb pieces may need to soak for 4 weeks). At the end of two weeks, filter the tincture through a strainer to remove the plant parts (pressing hard on the plant material to get as much liquid out as possible) and pour into a fresh clean glass container and seal. Some like to pour it through a cheese cloth and then use the cheese cloth to more easily wring out the liquid from the plant material. If using a powdered plant for the tincture, stop shaking for three days and the powder will settle to the bottom. Pour the tincture off the top through a piece of cheesecloth to filter it.
Since this method uses a higher ratio of plant to liquid and helps concentrate the chemicals through the use of alcohol, dosages needed for tinctures are usually much less than infusions and decoctions. Average dosages for tinctures are about 1-2 milliliters (about 30 to 60 drops) two to three times daily. The tincture can be placed directly in the mouth for immediate absorption, or placed in a small amount of water or juice. If you dislike the alcohol content (or want to give the remedy to a child), place the dosage in about 1-2 ounces of very hot water and most of the alcohol will be evaporated in the hot water in a minute or two. (Let cool before taking). Store the tincture at room temperature and away from direct sunlight.
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Thanks loads Selma.
I googled it it earlier tonight and came up with an almost similar version, but it was a lot more vague than this.
I will print this one from you out. NOW I can go ahead in a better way.
I am also wondering IF part of my thought of herx the past couple of days, wasn't because I was installing a tub surround, (still am), into the bathroom of our new house and the vapors from the adhesives was super strong even though I had several fans going to get rid of the fumes?
posted
BOBBY, I am answering your PM to me, here. MY ANSWERS WILL BE IN CAPS INTERSPERSED WITH YOUR QUESTIONS.
JIM ###
from Flash Member Member # 7642
posted 02-01-2006 11:56 AM
Profile for Serenity
JimBob, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and research both in posts and to me in private messages.
I have ordered sarsaparilla in bulk thru Raintree and seen on LymeNet that you are taking it in 450 mg capsules. What size capsule would that be?
THAT WOULD BE THE "0" SIZE CAPSULE. THAT WAS THE SIZE YOU BUY COMMERCIALLY. BUHNER RECOMMEDED TO ME TO USE THE "00" SIZE CAPSULE, WHEN DOING MY OWN. ###
I went to the health food store this morning and found they are ordered by capsule size, 00, etc.but no one knew what the equivalent to 450 mg was.
Also I will need to order the device to stuff them efficiently, do you use a the thing that tamps down the herb so you can get more into the capsules?
ORDER THE 00 SIZE, BUHNER RECOMMENDS IT. ALSO, I FIND THAT MANY OF THE CAPSULES DON'T GET QUITE FULL, EVEN WITH THE TAMPING, SO THE 00 SIZE WILL BE BETTER FOR MOST HERBS. ###
I also ordered Resveratrol thru Source Naturals and Cats Claw capsules by Raintree thru Source Naturals also. Unfortunately, I didnt' read your post on just how bitter the Andrographis is in tablet form before I ordered 4 bottles from VitaCost! Maybe I should just send them back when they come but what is the alternative you use? The capsules I saw advertised were so much more expensive when I figured how many would be needed each month.
I HAD 5 BOTTLES OF ANDROGRAPHIS tablets AND COULD HARDLY WAIT TILL I GOT DONE WITH THEM. NOW I AM USING "SOLARAY" BRAND capsules, AND I LIKE THAT MUCH BETTER. I STILL HAVE 5 BOTTLES OF THEM SO HAVE NOT ORDERED ANY ANDROGRAPHIS IN BULK YET. THESE SOLARAY CAPSULES WERE $6.91 PER BOTTLE FROM HERBS-WHOLESALE, 60 CAP BOTTLES. ANDROGRAPHIS IS NOT AS EXPENSIVE AS THE RESVERATROL. I BOUGHT THE RESVERATROL IN BULK FROM 1STCHINESEHERBS. (Hu Zhang). ###
Last of all, and I'm sorry if you have answered this somewhere, which of the the herbs mentioned in Healing Lyme are available in bulk (and in a quality bulk form)? My head is swimming going from one site to another,and trying to keep it all straight, and I'm not even the one in the family with Lyme brain fog!!!
MOST OF THE HERBS ARE AVAILABLE IN BULK. I BELIEVE ANSWERED ABOVE AS TO WHERE. SOME COMPANINES WILL HAVE SOME, AND OTHERS WILL HAVE OTHERS. THAT IS WHY I BUY FROM MORE THAN ONE COMPANY. IF YOU BUY FROM STARWEST BOTANICALS, AND THEY OFFER A CHEAPER AND MORE EXPENSIVE HERB, GET THE MORE EXPENSIVE ONE, IT IS HIGHER QUALITY, (such as organic, not fumigated, etc.). OTHERWISE THEY ARE A GOOD COMPANY. BUHNER RECOMMENDS TO GET AS MANY AS YOU CAN FROM RAINTREE NUTRITION. I HAVEN'T DONE THAT AS YET, BUT SHOULD, I GUESS. HE IS COMFORTABLE THAT THEY ARE OF THE HIGHEST QUALITY FROM THEM. ###
Again, thanks for all you have shared. As I was logging on to LymeNet once again, I thought, "man, won't it be nice when this site does not have to be listed among my "favorites". I'm praying for that day for all of us,
YOU ARE WELCOME BOBBY. GLAD TO BE OF ANY HELP I CAN. HOPEFULLY WE ALL WILL GET BETTER SOON. DON'T GIVE UP ON THE HERBS. I FEEL FROM MY EXPERIENCES AND STUDYING, SO FAR, THAT THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO GO. I CAN HARDLY WAIT TILL I AM DONE WITH MY 90 DAY REGIMEN OF ABX. ### JIM ###
I forgot to tell you, that I ordered my first machine for stuffing and tamping the home made capsules, from StarWest Botanicals. It is the "00" size.
I have just ordered the same brand of machine in the "0" size from Wonderlabs.com as their price is a little less, AND they had a couple of supplements I wanted at a good price. There is only about a $1.50 difference though in the two on the machine. StarWest Botanicals ALSO have another machine that is a little cheaper, but since they don't have pictures on their website, I don't know WHAT it looks like or how it works.
Hope all of this helps. Feel free to ask MORE questions if they come up, as I know what a struggle it can be when trying to get started in this as there is very little info out there readily available.
The reason I ordered the "0" size, is that some herbs, you many want to take in smaller quantities.
I believe I read somewheres, that depending on how you stuff the capsules that the 0 size handles about 450 to 500mg of powdered herb; and the 00 size has about 650 to 700+ mg. YOU could spend thousands to get a PRO machine, but unless you are doing it for others, you might as well just buy the capsules all done, as it is time consuming with these small manual machines, but you save about 80% in your capsules.
Another thing, on the bulk resveratrol, I can only find it in 3.5 ounce jars in bulk; not by the pound as with most herbs. But jars are neat for storing other herbs, or whatever, in also.
posted
Another thing, Bobby, etal., I am NOT so sure it pays to order the Cat's Claw in bulk form, as YOU can get THAT quite reasonable in tablet form as you will see in the copy/paste below, you get 1000mg tablets, which is the equivalent to 2 of the 500mg capsules or tablets elsewhere.
AND you don't have the hassle of encapsulizing your own. A couple bottles of these will take you a long way.
I have been using them for over a month, same brand, ordered elsewhere, but at about the same price, maybe a little less.
posted
I STILL can't get it to go through. SORRY about that.
But suffice it to say, that you can get the Source Naturals brand of Cat's Claw, 1000mg per TABLET, for only around $9 to $10 from many online sources.
I did buy cats claw by the pound, bulk, but haven't used it yet. As I still have a lot of the Source Naturals tablets.
I can't see any price of products, nor any 'machines' to do the capsules fillings as you say.
I called them today from Switzerland, the woman who's responsible for sales was not there (sick).
Their website 'contact' page doesn't work either (I've been trying it for about 3 days). Is this the same site you're talking about??
Which machine did you buy? Did it work for you? Would you recommend it?
I bought a few herbs in bulk from Rain-Tree, but not yet the andrographis. I was waiting for others to answer my post about 'andrographis feedback' but so far, only Daniela and you answered!
I also changed my way of taking organic garlic. Found a way not to chew it, it was too hard! I peel the cloves, weight them, and then 'grind' them (is this the word?) and decided to separate them in portions and freeze them inside the ice cube tray. Within a plastic bag, or my frezer would stink.
I weight them to control the quantity of intake, if it will cause stomach distress, how well it will work etc. I'm taking 20 grams a day. It's my limit for the moment.
I added olive oil, herbs, seeds and salt just in case I wished to take it as a pesto as I was doing before, but I think next time I'll do only the garlic as it's SO MUCH easier to take it like that. And people around me don't complain too much as there's little smell when we don't chew it.
Just an idea not to spend more and more money on allicin for the moment.
It's my 3rd day on 1,200mg artemisinin + tumeric. Only today, I started to have fatigue. I'm going to continue for more 2 days. Stabbing pains in the head finished after the first day, but I got probable arthritic herxes (but very mild). I can now bend my knees esily like in my pre-lyme times, but still feel some sort of weakness only to the left side (the sickest side).
Artemisinin high dosage didn't cause me GI problems this time. I still do daily a short jogging, but I don't feel my brain works 100%.
I'll probably try another malaria herb together with artemisinin in a few weeks (just in case...).
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Jim Bob- I sell red root tincture. It is in a certified organically grown alcohol base. I'm sorry if I offend anyone with this post, but my company is Terra Firma Botanicals. www.terrafirmabotanicals.com I am dealing with Lyme and some co-infections, take rocephin & zithromax and many tinctures. I think my prices are very very good and the products very very potent. We manufacture everything ourselves using only organic herbs and alcohol.
Posts: 85 | From Eugene | Registered: Jun 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Selma: Like I told you in the PM a few minutes ago, that it is NOT what you tried but:
Hope this helps and thanks again for the Raintree info on the tincture. I have it "cooking" since yesterday. But can't use for 4 weeks, I guess. So did order some from myvitanet.com. Should be here next week as it was backordered.
I made the Red Root tincture and it has been "cooking" for two weeks now. TWO more weeks to go and I will have probably a years supply.
I did get the 2 one ounce bottles of Red Root from myvitanet, but it took a few days longer than usual to get it from them. ( I don't think they stock that).
Going full bore with the Artemisinin and the Red Root, along with doxycycline and other herbs at this time.
posted
Jim Bob, I'd be interested in knowing how your visual symptoms are these days. I know you've mentioned great improvement in this area since starting herbs. Are there specific herbs that you think have helped your vision the most? Thanks, Lesley
Posts: 164 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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hiker53
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 6046
posted
Do the herbs kill the cyst form of Lyme or do they just kill the keets? Are they like antibiotics where it is theorized will drive the Lyme into dormant cyst form--then you feel better for a while and relapse later? Just curious if any studies have been done? Hiker
P.S. Jim Bob--Glad you are feeling better.
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8879 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
hiker
That's a good question and I also would love to know the answer.
Unfortunately there are scant studies on abx treatments long term I am thinking there will be even less for herbs.
I am hoping I am wrong on this.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Hi Gang:
As most of you know, I started on Herbs BEFORE I started on Abx, and my vision and brain fog problems left me in a very short time. They left me when I was ONLY on low dosages of Cat's Claw, Devil's Claw AND Sarsaparilla. As did the arthritic symptoms. They didn't leave totally, but almost.
When I went to the 28 days of Tetracycline, and the 24 days of Doxycycline they came back really bad again. Plus the pain in my stomach that had gotten better on herbs and C-Salts, came back BIG time. Even worse than before the herbs.
I quit the abx on Feb. 21, 2006, and my vision has SLOWLY returned to being good again. NOT perfect yet, but getting there. Before the abx, it came back like a miracle in one day, on the herbs only.
Overall, I am feeling MUCH better, now, again. I hope it keeps up.
I am also taking Stephania Root, which is good for vision problems.
Today, I just started a 3-day regimen of Artemisinin and Red Root. 1200mg a day of the Artemisinin, and about 90 to 100 drops of Red Root tincture, three times a day.
I am doing this regimen, just in case I have Babesia. (Have not been tested for it).
Speaking of tests did you read the newest article from LymeInfo?
I have also ordered some more different herbs, that I haven't used before. Will gradually add them in to my protocol. I hope they will be here Monday.
Also, I used to take Periwinkle which is good for memory difficulties, but ran out of the tincture I bought. I bought it in bulk about a month ago, but keep forgetting to make a tincture from it.
Dana, you are right, unfortunately. However, there are quite a few on this list taking Herbs now, and so far have only heard good results. We can't call them tests, because they are not clinical and all seperate, BUT they are REAL world regimens that ARE working.
The herbs that I am using are all recommenced by Buhner for CURING Lyme.
SOME are anti-Spirochetal, some are for relieving symptoms, others are for clearing out our important systems like the lymph system which includes the liver.
Some say Herbs are experimental. They are right. BUT we must also remember that antibiotics are ALSO experimental. SOME work to some degree on SOME people and others on others. NONE seem to cure UNLESS the Lyme is caught really early after the bite.
Some of the herbs recommended are anti-malarial, which also seems to make them work for Lyme. Such as Artemisinin or the whole herb, Artemesia annua.
All I KNOW is that I FEEL MANY TIMES better on just herbs than I did on herbs AND abx.
posted
A post you might like JimBob. I plan on looking into some lymph drainage herbs. Thanks!
As to the article you'll read the words there is no "scientific research". It's a phrase doctors throw around. The term can mean anything. does he mean double blind placebo type studies? who knows, it's a useless phrase. and whyyyyyyy are we not looking into these products? Is it because Cheney has stock in Tamiflu?
AND (sorry for the rant)
From the same guy Ernst. ``Nothing works,'' AND THEN "You'd be hard pushed to find a plant that doesn't have antiviral or antibacterial effects,'' said Ernst." Is it me or did he just shoot himself in the foot? I agree with the latter part, in fact thats why they DO work.
Dietary supplements and bird flu - the debate
By Stephen Daniells
24/02/2006 - As the bird flu grip on Europe increases by the day, scientists have begun to publicly debate the role of nutraceuticals as possible preventatives in the wake of news that availability of anti-viral drugs may be ``too little, too late.''
At a Science Media Centre briefing on Monday 20th February, Professor Edzard Ernst, professor of complimentary medicine at the University of Exeter, said that there was no scientific evidence to support the claims from natural products available on the Internet to protect against avian flu.
The products quoted by Professor Ernst included olive leaf extract, garlic, oregano oil, colloidal silver, aloe vera, Echinacea, and green tea.
``Nothing works,'' Professor Ernst is quoted as saying in the Guardian newspaper (February 21st). ``Nothing that is within the umbrella of complementary medicine is of demonstrable effectiveness. Journalists ought to be very cautious when they hear this or that plant kills something in a petri dish.
You'd be hard pushed to find a plant that doesn't have antiviral or antibacterial effects,'' said Ernst.
This view was claimed to be ``irresponsible and a danger to public health,'' by Dr. Damien Downing, president of the British Society for Ecological Medicine, and medical director of the Alliance for Natural Health, an international campaign organisation dedicated to protecting and promoting natural healthcare worldwide.
``I welcomed Professor Ernst's acknowledgement of the point made by the Alliance for Natural Health over a month ago that genuine caution should be exercised when using certain herbal remedies, such as Echinacea, in bird flu, but I am amazed that Professor Ernst appears to have no knowledge of the extensive literature on the essential nature of zinc and vitamin C, for example, when the body is dealing with infections,'' said Downing.
Downing says that a significant body of research backs the evidence that both zinc and vitamin C are essential for the immune system, but warned that less than ten per cent of adults in the UK have sufficient levels of zinc in their diet.
``Why is Professor Ernst ignoring the extensive evidence base on the use of nutrition to prevent and relieve viral infections?
Also, when it is self-evident that supplies of vaccines and anti-viral drugs will be too little, too late, it is alarming that no global or national health authorities have broached the subject of how people can support their immune system through the use of diet and food supplements in the event of a pandemic,'' added Downing.
However, Dr. Ron Cutler from the School of Biosciences at the University of East London said that any supplement that boosted the body's immune system was bad news in relation to avian flu.
The H5N1 virus is said to stimulate the immune system, fill the lungs with blood and causes death.
The two main antiviral drugs targeted at bird flu, Tamiflu and Relenza, are said to have a window of operation of between six and 48 hours from the appearance of symptoms in humans.
The British government announced today a �33m pound contract to two pharmaceutical companies to produce 3.5bn doses of vaccine, and agreed a ``sleeping contract'' for a further 120m doses of the vaccine.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Good for you Brent.
And thanks for the post, it sure was interesting to say the least.
MAYBE, IF we KEEP bugging enough people, THEY too will get the drift that abx are not only NOT the only answer, but hardly the answer at all to real health effects from the Lyme bug syndrome.
SOME are being reached, I am finding out. Hopefully more will be awakened also. I keep adding to my protocol in hopes of totally eradicating this "thorn" we have been saddled with.
posted
JimBoB; it seems like you know a lot about herbs and would be the right person to answer the following;
I am not yet diagnosed with lyme. Right now I am waiting to do some more tests. Because of various reasons, I am 90% sure that what I am struggling with is Lyme.
My thought is that while waiting on getting my tests and diagnose, I should not start using too many herbs and supplements as this might help the little bugs escape being noticed on the tests. It probably would make me healthier, but I ought to be sick until I am diagnosed. Right?
I don�t really know what I am talking about, just an idea i got.
Posts: 155 | From Norway | Registered: Jan 2006
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Siggy:
A lot depends on WHAT test or tests you are doing.
Some tests can use some stirring up from herbs or abx, others maybe not.
It depends also on HOW LONG you have had Lyme and/or co-infections, IF you do.
I have NEVER been tested, but have had MOST of the LYME symptoms, and had a duck clinically diagnose and treat me six years ago. He believes you are CURED with abx in 21 days of treatment, regardless.
I got bit about 5 months before he treated me, so the bugs had a good hold on me. THe Cipro he gave me helped for about 8 months, but then the symptoms came back gradually, till last NOvember, I thought I was going to die.
He wouldn't give me a test now, because he figures with the antigens in my body, it would show positive regardless. AND around here the Bowens test I wanted is not considered valid.
THerefore I was forced to go on my own, as I had no money to travel and hire an LLMD.
I am not sorry I started the herbs when I did, as now I have my life back, pretty much.
posted
Hi, I started on some of these herbs in addition to my usual regimen (rife, herbs, homeopathics and no abx thus far).
So far, I have only the taken supportive herbs: Japanese Knowtweed, Teasal, and Stephania Root along with low dose artemesinin from Allergy Research Group. THe Japenese Knotweed, Teasal and Stephania are bulk herbs from 1st Chinese herbs, prepared as teas.
I started the artemesinin and new frequencies on my rife machine last week. As expected, I had crushing fatigue again along with other herxheimer symptoms.
I added in the other herbs last Saturday. My fatigue is better. I am getting restful sleep, I had to reduce my L-tryptophan. I feel clamer. And my brain seems to be working better, making connections and associations. Could it be the Japenes Knotweed, Teasal and Stephania Root?
Tomorrow I start the Andrographis and expect that an achy and tired day.
It's encourging to see others' reports.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Serendipity , Thank you for sharing your personal experience . I REALLY (!) hope others will continue updating their progress on the herbs and rife .
I am on cat's claw and andrographis, and about to start the japanese knotweed today . The andrographis has been rough , but I am up to four tablets daily .
I am going to give this at least 6 mos or a year , then try adding rife .
I am SOOO encouraged to hear your fatigue is better and your cognitive state too .
What kind of rife machine do you have ? Have you used it very long ?
I truly hope you continue making steady progress .
I wonder if there are others combining herbs and rife ?
MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
This is a pretty old thread- see the dates of the earlier postings- and Jim Bob has posted a lot of updates here every few days.
A number of us have had pretty good success with this stuff, including me. The science behind it is very, very solid (I'm just re-reading the Healing Lyme book and trying to find some of the studies listed in the 30+ page reference section in the back of the book)
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
Give it at least a year. Of course it all depends on HOW LONG you have had Lyme, AND how sensitive you are to drugs and herbs, but don't count on a few months to get better, totally.
serendipity: WHY are you thinking you will feel achy etc., with Andro? I don't notice anything with the Andro, other than it maybe has made me fell better over the long haul.
I assume I would feel achy from the die off of Lyme. I didn't herx with Cumanda even at high doses, just improved. And rife gives me some mild herxheimers that I can push through.
Jim-Came back to edit. I have been hesitant to add the andrographis. Jan was a tough month. I used a new rife machine, PPET, and herxed for weeks. Sara at 1st Chinese Herbs also cautioned me to start slowly with the andrographis, suggesting half a capsule to begin with. In addition to killing lyme she said the andrographis tonifies the liver causing release of toxins and a healing crisis.
Ann, I started rifing early in my treatment. I read Bryan Rosners book and he made some convincing arguments for using rife. He even argues that real healing begins when all herbs and antibiotics are stopped and rife is used alone or with supprotive treatments that do not cause the lyme to hide into cyst form.
I've used a number of rife machines. Currently I am using the EMEM and PERL. Next week I will start using the high powered magnetic pulser after a long break.
If you haven't read Rosners book on Lyme and Rife I strongly encourge you to get a copy.
Thanks
[ 15. February 2007, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: serendipity ]
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Serendipity:
Andrographis doesn't KILL all that many ketes. Not in my estimation. It is used to ENHANCE the IMMUNE system. The antibiotics do kill a lot more ketes. AND they tend to hide from the abx. I haven't heard where they hide from herbs.
Herbs work differently.
ALSO, you must remember that the Andrographis is excreted through the kidneys very rapidly, so you must TRY to keep it in your system by regular, often, use as much as you can.
I personally had a very rough time even before herbs with my gut, so started out slow. By slow I mean ONE Andrographis pill a day for a week. Then two a day for a week, then three a day for a week, etc., etc., until I got it up to 12 a day for about 5 months. Buhner recommends 16 a day for at least two months, but I never got up to that many a day. Course you will need Cat's Claw, Resveratrol, Sarsaparilla, Red Root tincture, Milk THistle, probably Stephania Root, Nettle, Devil's Claw, and maybe others too. '
THose depend on your symptoms and WHAT YOU can tolerate.
posted
My experience with one month of Buhner herbs :
So far I am mostly amazed by how strong they are , esp the andrographis . I started it first with cat's claw ( which seemed to have little effect ) for three weeks . I added the resveratrol two days ago . The combined effect seems to be potentiated SIGNIFICANTLY .
Ho do I feel ? NOT TOO GOOD ! As a matter of fact the herxing that results from the andrographis is convincing to me that bacteria is being killed off ina major way .
I do not find that sarsaparilla helps the herx ; it kills pathogens ( according to Buhner ) and it increases white cell fighting power. I think it is effective for knocking off bacteria, but I am not finding that it ameliorates the herxheimer .
I am no scientist , but I sense the andrographis is killing lots of spirochetes , at least in my body.
I suppose it is good that this protocol is making me feel just like I did when I started ABX ( WITHOUT THE MISERY OF YEAST PROBLEMS ) and that it is being effective. I look forward to feeling better - hopefully in a few months .
I am going to try and find some red root tinctureand see if it will lighten the symptoms of the toxin die off ( herx).
There are some who say they rarely herxed on this protocol; others had noticeable herxing discomfort to varying degrees . Just an unscientific thought , but I notice the herxes are FAR worse around menstrual cycles , and have read other women post the same. Maybe the male population gets a break from the herx misery because of hormone differences .
I really hope others will add posts of their experiences if the herbs are helping them make progress.
posted
Hi Ann, I started Stephania Root, Teasal and Japenese Knotweed last week. I have a bottle of Angrographis and am deciding if I feel strong enough to take it today, knowing there is the possibility of a herx.
So far, I feel better with the other herbs, my vision is slowly improving and I am dreaming again after a long while.
I'll keep you posted.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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I am rather amazed that Selma ( hardynaka) has had VERY good results with the protocol and only takes four andro capsules daily.
I am up to five , but the herxing is not much fun . I need to add the red root . I am using a detox product called Fiber Fusion by Enzymatic Therapy . It really does help , and I feel noticeably worse if I forget it .
posted
Hi Ann, I saw that you have brought previous posts on rife and herbs to the front pages for those asking questions. Thanks!
My doctor uses energetic testing or kinesology to tests products and dosing. I took a bottle of Natures Way Angrographis as he hasn't incorporated it in his lyme treatment regimen. He was suprised by how well it tested for me. I tested for six capsules a day, starting with one and building up as tolerated.
I use Parsley/Burbur/Detox Formula (3 day rotation) along with B-2, glutathione and d-leucine for detox. When I slack off, I notice it.
Mineola, Long Island. I grew up close by and still visit my family there. Take care.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Names of members who have posted that herbs have helped in their progress :
8man12 777 jwf hardynaka MariaA sweetpea Jimbob
There may be others , but you can search the posts of these members for their specific comments on the benefits of herbs . Some have used herbs with ABX , others have relied only on herbs.
Hopefully we will hear from other members here with feedback .
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Guys, I'm NOT taking andrographis anymore for more than a month (after a continuous 13 month with very little break). My highest dose was 4 pills a day. But I was also on most of core protocol herbs during all this time.
I was sooooo afraid to stop andro, but so far, no return of symptoms! I'm trying to work on knotweed now, the herb from core protocol I took the least.
I had an allergic reaction in the recent months with it, but I re-tested it recently with ART and it showed I react to high amounts of it, but not low. So far, I'm ok, but I'm taking minute amounts of it.
I take a small piece of bark of knotweed and put in water and boil it for about 10 minutes. It makes one cup of tea, and that's my daily dose.
I'm not taking knotweed for lyme exactly, but more for bartonella. I had some hand rashes that are now almost gone (they looked like eczema). I had one bartonella rash on my face for one day, also gone very fast...
My chills are muuuch better now, but I still suffer from them. So, I guess, I still have things to kill...
Amazingly, my athlete's foot (pre-lyme) is getting better. But I'm still fighting it with rizols and zeolite.
What I have now is a bit of fatigue, nothing very serious, but I need more sleeping hours than before. I feel happy when I get 9 hours of sleep, but 8 hours is too little.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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