posted
Please help - I am trying to find info on lyme arthritis.... have not found it in books or articles. I see the term 'lyme arthritis' but have not been able to find out exactly what causes it, compare it to rheumatoid, see what exactly causes the swelling, etc. when someone asks me to explain why it is different than 'regular' arthritis, all I can do is say that it is not actually a wearing down of the bone (is that even right?) any links or info is appreciated - thanks!
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mlkeen
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1260
posted
Lyme arthritis is neurological. It is caused by lyme doing damage to the central nervious system. This is why the arthritis is often transient or intermittant.
I think, early on anyway, the damage is inflammation and is quickly healed with proper treatment. It seems that some folks with lyme undiagnosed for a long period have perminant damage to some of their joint.
I describe it as "nerve" arthritis. My relatives who live in areas where they believe there is no lyme ( but they have deer) look at me like I'm crazy. That may be true.
Locally, everyone seems to know what lyme arthritis is, they all have it as part of their "post lyme syndrome" I just don't say a word.
quote:Originally posted by mlkeen: Lyme arthritis is neurological. It is caused by lyme doing damage to the central nervious system. This is why the arthritis is often transient or intermittant.
I think, early on anyway, the damage is inflammation and is quickly healed with proper treatment. It seems that some folks with lyme undiagnosed for a long period have perminant damage to some of their joint.
Neurological?? I agree with your second paragraph, but have doubts about the first.
From what I've read and heard, Lyme does considerable damage to the joints. It also damages the neurons, so that the pain is nerve pain....but the pain is not solely from the Lyme in our brains.
Does this make sense, or am I showing my ignorance as to what "neurological" means!!?
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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luvs2ride
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Member # 8090
posted
Crabby,
Have you been diagnosed with RA?
Rheumatoid is not a gradual wearing away of the joints. It is a condition whereby the immune system begins to attack the body. Rheumies like to suppress the immune system with steroids and cancer drugs like methotrexate.
There is over 50 yrs of study and research of a bacterial infection which causes RA. Mycoplasma is the suspected bacteria, but I believe in many cases it is lyme.
4 LLMD's have said they had patients who developed RA while treating for lyme but once the lyme disappeared, so did the RA.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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mlkeen
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Member # 1260
posted
Perhaps neurological is not the best word, but it is related to the nervious system, hense the transient part.
Fortunatly I don't seem to have any other kind of arthritis but the nerve pain kind. My joints don't hurt very often, and it moves around, but is mostly in my hands.
I've tested neg for RA, but would expect that when lyme, or some other bug triggers RA the joints start to have serious problems.
Posts: 1572 | From Pa | Registered: Jun 2001
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just don
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1129
posted
Lyme arthritis for chronic lyme is real. They all differ as everybody does with this crappy disease.
My hands were first affected, all with osteo arthritis, NO RA. I have zero cartilage in the palms of my hands by x-ray almost ten years ago.
I fear it has spread even farther by now to the wrist and fingers also. The thumb joint is usually the first to go. It was for me.
Didnt know why they were popping in and out of joint 10 20 times an hour sometimes. IT definitely hurt like h-e- two- sticks.
I agree about some nerve damage or arthritis also. Definitely affected!!
The arthritis never was transit for me. Once a joint started having trouble it never got one iota better only worse.
It must have bought a one way ticket only. The lyme arthritis or OA for me is my main symptom
I think you might be able to google it and come up with 'some ' info. Also known as reactive arthritis.
Funniest thing is x-rays dont detect all or any of potential arthritis damage until it is past severe.
Here's a bit of my past experience. Years ago my elbow 'quit' working. Regular ortho doc said I needed to keep more range of motion or be confined to a nursing home soon.
X-ray said no arthritis in elbow. He referred me to a surgeon who did a scope on that elbow and said when he got in there he had never seen such a mess.
He cleaned out the bone spurs the best he could and smoothed out the rough spots also as best he could. Works fine'now'.
Moral of this story is "Dont believe x-rays regarding lyme arthritis" It could be worse!!! Remember where you heard that from,--just don--,cause I been there done that!!!
-------------------- just don Posts: 4548 | From Middle of midwest | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Let's see - I have no signs of osteo on Xrays or bone scans. One of you clumped OA with Lyme - I do think that they are completely different types of arthritis, right? one is actually a bone issue where as one is caused by bacteria, right? I just dont really understand how they are both considered 'arthirits' while they are so very different. I can see how RA and Lyme arthritis are similar...I am trying to find out some more details as to how lyme arthritis actually affects/attacks a joint (chemically, inflamitorily (is that a word?) and any affect it has on the bone and cartilage). I can't seem to find all of these details anywhere. You would think that since there is a term for 'lyme arthritis' that someone somehwere must have studied it, right? Who knows - I guess with Lyme so much is up in the air, huh?!?
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posted
Let's see - I have no signs of osteo on Xrays or bone scans. One of you clumped OA with Lyme - I do think that they are completely different types of arthritis, right? one is actually a bone issue where as one is caused by bacteria, right? I just dont really understand how they are both considered 'arthirits' while they are so very different. I can see how RA and Lyme arthritis are similar...I am trying to find out some more details as to how lyme arthritis actually affects/attacks a joint (chemically, inflamitorily (is that a word?) and any affect it has on the bone and cartilage). I can't seem to find all of these details anywhere. You would think that since there is a term for 'lyme arthritis' that someone somehwere must have studied it, right? Who knows - I guess with Lyme so much is up in the air, huh?!?
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
breaking this up for us neuro lymies...
quote:Originally posted by Crabby: Let's see - I have no signs of osteo on Xrays or bone scans. One of you clumped OA with Lyme - I do think that they are completely different types of arthritis, right?
one is actually a bone issue where as one is caused by bacteria, right? I just dont really understand how they are both considered 'arthirits' while they are so very different.
I can see how RA and Lyme arthritis are similar...I am trying to find out some more details as to how lyme arthritis actually affects/attacks a joint (chemically, inflamitorily (is that a word?) and any affect it has on the bone and cartilage).
I can't seem to find all of these details anywhere. You would think that since there is a term for 'lyme arthritis' that someone somehwere must have studied it, right? Who knows - I guess with Lyme so much is up in the air, huh?!?
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
It is all a mystery. The longer I research, the more confused I am.
I was told initially that the lyme would not cause any permanent damage.
Just Don, like you I began with thumb. However, mine does migrate around and the thumb is sometimes good and sometimes not. So far, I don't (7 mths) seem to have any permanent damage.
My wrists were x-rayed and came out clean which made me very happy. Thank you for taking away that joy!!!! :-) just kiddin'.
I have been having lots of good days for about a month, but today my left wrist is swollen again making my left hand fairly disfunctional. I am left-handed so this is a problem.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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just don
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Member # 1129
posted
The diffrence between true OA and lyme OA is,,, true OA only comes to one joint at a time as it is worn out(OA-defined- is the wear and tear on a joint which wears out.)
Well in lyme OA it is commonly bilateral or closely so. Doesnt mean one side is always the same affected as the other but buy in large they are commonly the same.
I believe it is the bb eating up the synival lining and dumping out the lube juice necessary to make it work. Then it continues to eat away at the cartilage until all is gone. Is there hope after lyme of good joints,,,hope so!! Another stiupid story on my part I didnt add to that first ortho scope story of first part to make it 'shorter'.
Bear in mind this is well before I 'knew' what I really had. This ALL started when I was reading on the net about 'connective tissue disease'. Thats what I thought I had.
RN daughter that works at our state university hospital says we have a world reknown resarcher and expert on this right here, we shall make an appointment. I went, he saw, he scoffed at me for faking bilateral OA, rejected connective tissue disease because I "HAD" to have RA type arthritis to have that disease, impossible to have it when 'just' OA type!!!
At that time my elbow was not working too good and ask him about it. He said it would be a 'good' deal if it didnt and I couldnt feed myself any more because I had a 'few' pounds to lose any way(I am not obese, just some pounds too many for my short height!).
Needless to say I didnt make another appointment with this duck!!!.(jerk)
When I got home a week or two pased and the elbow wasnt getting any better. I go to original ortho doc and show him decreased range of moton. he is shocked and stated as I said before, either I get that fixed orI go to nursing home soon.
So back to the 'big' city 120 miles away for a ortho 'scope' surgeon(actually a sports injury specalist too) and the scope of the elbow as previously said.
What I didnt say was as they did this they did whats called a nerve block where they inject _ into the nerve in the armpit. Time for the scope and they didnt have it numb enough yet so they gave me 'another' nerve block, same deal.
Did scope and right after didnt even recognize my arm as my own(VERY strange feeling) They sent me home and sid it will wake up in 2 or 3 hours. It was fully 24 hours(big difference) when it finnally woke up.
Now comes the strange of strange part. THAT arm and hand felt completely normal for like 9 or 10 months after that. All the OA was gone, no body knew why. Other hand same ole hurtsville. (I was wearing wrist braces 24/7 for years before and after) I didnt need right brace(operated arm) for those 10 months, then it came back.
ortho doc said it was the cement sidewalk I was pounding ,breaking, and replacing with wet concrete. Stretches even the best of connective tissues.
In the mean time I begged the surgeon scope doc to do on my left sie whatever he did on the right side, he was completely bewildered. Said he cleaned bone spurs and thats what I chalked it up to at the 'time' releasing pressure on a nerve.
At that time i was over on Mass. hospital board with thinking I had comprressed nerve syndrome, whatever.
Now the now known look back at that time. When they 'froze' that arm for that amount of time they froze out the bb. It is very slow growing back(per llmd) and thats why the long time frome of 'normal' feeling there.
The joints all felt 'normal' for that time frame. Now IF I could only convince a normal duck to freeze both my arms(one at a time) for that long I think I could have normal hands for at least six months. Spose I can get them to do it over and over???
Better yet whip the bb permanently and get it over with. But how do I get a duck to freeze my whole body for 24 hours???So it feels better.???
Now on a small related note, I take 2 citrical,2 magnesium, and 2 glucosomine/clondridin OTC suplements or I feel the non effects of same!! I would NOT be typing this right now!!! Makes a world of difference with arthritis,
My moral of the story is,,,experiment and see what works for YOU and makes you feel better. If after 6 months to a year of something and you cant tell the good, forget it and move on, advice from some duck I saw once!!!
BUT it works for ME!!! Could for you too!!! They will pry that triple combo out of my dead cold hands, period!!!because I am --just don--
-------------------- just don Posts: 4548 | From Middle of midwest | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Wow, don, that's really interesting about the freezing of the Bb!
Crabby, I think the word "arthritis" means "joint pain", doesn't it? But I understand what you're asking. I guess only a well-versed LLMD or a LL Ortho would know what the process is that causes the pain/damage.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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