posted
It sounds like you think Buhner's book came out 10 years ago. It didn't!
Buhner's book is not even one year old yet.
Thus, the protocol is not even one year old yet.
And I think the word is coming out...at least amongst us. Whether the protocol is actually working, is probably too early to tell. But a lot of people are reporting positive results.
The "problem" with the protocol is that it's an herbal treatment protocol, which means it won't be supported by most LLMDs who are still primarily focused on treating with abx.
Seconly, it takes more than a few lymies reporting on lymenet about good results with his protocol to convince the average LLMD about the merits of the protocol.
LLMDs need double blind tests, FDA stamping and backup publications in the NEMJ before they feel safe enough to suggest a new protocol.
Thirdly, most LLMDs have carve out a little niche for themselves where they excel or where they are regarded as experts. They won't let go of that so easily.
So basically, there's quite a few hurdles to scale and quite a bit of momentum to build up before there will be widespread support for this protocol.
Furtunately, there's lyment.org where we can find out these things on our own. And also fortunately, none of the herbs in his protocol need a doctor's approval to be acquired.
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
thank you for answering. i was given mis-information.
however-if that is the case-all the talk on here about how good the protocol is is premature.
i do have a few comments about what you wrote
1. all the llmds i know-and i know a lot of the original ones do use some herbal treatments
2. you wrote,"Seconly, it takes more than a few lymies reporting on lymenet about good results with his protocol to convince the average LLMD about the merits of the protocol."
all i can say to that is "THANK GOD".
3. you said,"LLMDs need double blind tests, FDA stamping and backup publications in the NEMJ before they feel safe enough to suggest a new protocol."
this is absolutely not true. i don't know who you are or where you get your information, but this is a totally false statement. main stream medical doctors need what you are talking about. good llmds are different from mainstream medical docs because they don't need these things.
4. you said, "Thirdly, most LLMDs have carve out a little niche for themselves where they excel or where they are regarded as experts. They won't let go of that so easily."
or put another way, they are dealing with a new health problem that has no reliable way of being diagnosed or treated and they do it by objectively and scientifically figuring out what works and what doesn't. i applaud them for this.
5. you said, "So basically, there's quite a few hurdles to scale and quite a bit of momentum to build up before there will be widespread support for this protocol."
again i say, THANK GOD".
6. you said, "Furtunately, there's lyment.org where we can find out these things on our own. And also fortunately, none of the herbs in his protocol need a doctor's approval to be acquired."
it seems to me that buhner is adding as much to the whole problem as the docs who say 3 weeks of doxy, 100mg a day will cure you.
michael, you sound like a nice, polite, well-meaning person. however, you do not have a knowledge of the history of lyme disease and it's treatment. it is posts like this that are adding to the confusion not only for newbies, but for everyone who has not been in on this problem from the beginning. that includes mainstream medical personal.
this forum started out as a very helpful and informative place, but it seems to get more dangerous with misinformation everyday.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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but in my experience I haven't found much of what you are stating to be true.
I have worked with traditional LLMD's for years, a good many of them.
In my case they support herbal care and I share info with them, but they do not practice in it.
I could go on but I don't have time to adress all your bullet points.
But here:
"however, you do not have a knowledge of the history of lyme disease and it's treatment. it is posts like this that are adding to the confusion not only for newbies, but for everyone who has not been in on this problem from the beginning. that includes mainstream medical personal.
this forum started out as a very helpful and informative place, but it seems to get more dangerous with misinformation everyday."
I could not disagree with you more, and I feel a restrictive environment here will be very harmful overall to the community. I've been here for years, and alternative therapies have been discussed and well utilized by some.
Everyone is free to have the opinions you do, of course! Or maybe a respectful discussion would be helpful... Or perhaps just bypass anything that is not of use..
But to state there is no merit or use for certain herbal alternatives, or that talk of them here is dangerous is another story. For some people.. condemnation or restriction on discussion of alternative therapies would actually do them harm.
There are a million cases with a million circumstances. I'm sorry - but I have to say that you cannot possibly be qualified to make some of the definitive statements you are making.
Bringing it into discussion mode.. I have found certain antibiotics most definately helpful. I have found others most definately not so.
I have found fasting and cleansing definitively helpful. (with great care and guidance, of course)
I have found certain herbs definitively helpful. Sarsparilla (tho I have not followed Bruner's protocol) helped me to great effect.
I have fond herbal immune modulators definitively helpful.
I have found diet for both immune support and alkalinity definitively helpful.
I have found drinking distilled water definitively helpful.
Among other things.
The opportunity to discuss things and present info, exchange is invaluable here.
To state any modality is definitively necessary, or definitively dangerous in an attempt to deter discussion is what is not helpful here.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
If you hang around here for years, you see these things come and go. There has been a whole list of things that were going to be the ANSWER. And there is always some reason why doctors won't do this, ducks or llmds. Some people swear they were helped or cured by these things. Occasionally someone admits it didn't work, but these are less common because people apparently don't want to admit they were suckers.
A few anecdotes by people on lymenet do not make a strong enough case for anyone who cares about scientific medicine. I am speaking here not just of LLMDs who must be very cautious, but also patients.
If you are into faith healing, instead of scientific medicine, maybe you require no body of evidence.
Very ill newbies will not have the perspective, the exposure to so many alt treatments and their results from previous years, so that is why these alt med methods can be dangerous.
I think buyer beware applies to everything one reads on internet forums, regardless of how well intended the posters are.
I would personally not like to have our supplements and herbs removed from the market and have always stood up for people who wish to experiment with their own health. They are the only ones who will suffer or benefit from these experiments, unless they push it on others who have not researched it, and are desperately sick.
Discussions of alternatives should never include statements suggesting people will not get well without doing this. I can think of several people who are frequent transgressors and it bothers me a lot.
Another interesting thing is that some of the same people who touted a wonderful new "therapy" which cured them, showed up later touting another new one that cured them, etc. How can this be? Was treatment #1 not so good after all?
[ 14. March 2006, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: lou ]
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
My thoughts:
1) Michael's comments are right on and consistent with my experience with more than one LLMD. I do not find that most are willing to consider options outside of their comfort zone (mainly those that do ABX alone won't consider herbs and I find that even the LLMDs are heavily weighted towards the ABX).
2) I do think that there are people that are having good results with portions of Buhner's protocol. I expect to hear of even more. Sadly, many people, even here on Lymenet, are set on ABX as the solution to resolving Lyme Disease and I personally do not think they are a sole magic bullet - they are part of a well-planned solution but not the entire solution.
3) I think it is important for people to research and to try things that may work. If no one was willing to try these protocols, we would never find answers. I for one have incorporated some of the herbal options into my program and overall, I am doing well.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ann-OH
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posted
Sorry, Michael, I don't believe your take on doctors who treat Lyme disease.
I think most of them are good honest people and do their best. Most of them have to work long and hard and really care about their patients.
About Buhner, I am a skeptic. He has written 13 books in a fairly short period of time. He has a new one out since the Lyme one.
Other books deal with his take on the healing properties of beer and his method of treating Hepatitis C. I find that a stretch.
His education includes some associate degrees and a undergraduate degree from a school that has since closed. His bio lists 3 "genius" groups in which he holds membership, including Mensa. I wonder why that should be in a colored outlined box on his CV.
I do not fault his knowledge of herbs, but he also claims to be an expert in spirituality and a poet. I do suspect anyone who writes a book claiming to "heal" Lyme disease.
Here is what one reviewer said about Buhner's earlier book on "herbal antibiotics" [quote] Tenets of Bacterial Ecology It seems that Mr. Buhner is not particularly well versed in the basics of bacteriology and microbiology.
I found it particularly perverse when he claims that bacteria have true intelligence and premeditated cooperative abilities in that they "learn" how to live in antibiotic environments.
Further, the idea that the use of ground up plants will stop bacterial infection goes against sound reason.
1. Bacteria survive because they are opportunistic, id est, they reproduce quickly and successfully because they are small and can exploit natural resources before other organisms can.
2. Bacteria survive because they are variablistic: they are not intelligent or premeditative, they are a simple algorithm which permutates often, but randomly. When something works it survives to reproduce.
This second statement supports the idea that plant extracts cannot be used as antibiotics any more effectively than a synthetic antibiotic like chlorampheticol.
Plants as a general group of organisms rely on the opposite evolutionary strategy to survive: invest in your stake (resources and physical individual) in order to make it successful by making it unavailable for use by opportunistic organisms.
While this sounds like it may support the use of herbal antibiotics, it actually indicates that plants choose stability over variability and therefore don't change as quickly as bacteria...nor do the biosynthetic products they produce.
Any such product would, if it was antibiotic in the first place, be subject to the very same forces of selective bacterial reproduction as a synthetic drug, rendering it useless in short time. [end quote]
I don't know what his "protocol" costs, but I bet it is not cheap. I also doubt that there are many people who took it and recovered.
posted
I dont understand why people are so willing to make premature judgments(pro or con)about any type of therapy. As far as the "truth" is concerned,this is(like many others)a forum that is driven by opinion and Potential fact. In my opinion...if your over 18(or have parental consent),and theres a legal disclamer,then anyone should feel free to give their opinion without personal attacks. What scares me is censorship. I enjoy the the freedom to give my own opinion and practice my own judgement. I also enjoy the Right to be Wrong. Alan
-------------------- Charter member of the ~ Delux Toasting Club ~ Our Moto: "Take No Prisoners" Posts: 95 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I found it particularly perverse when he claims that bacteria have true intelligence and premeditated cooperative abilities in that they "learn" how to live in antibiotic environments. --------------------------------------------------- that's borrelia to a T. It does very well in an antibiotic environment.
Further, the idea that the use of ground up plants will stop bacterial infection goes against sound reason. --------------------------------------------------- Anything that wants to live on this planet better have the ability to overcome pathogenic attack. His statement goes against sound reason.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Ann-OH, I disagree. I absolutely believe that these bugs are very intelligent and do absolutely cooperate with each other to ensure their survival.
The use of herbs and plants have been used for thousands of years to treat bacterial and other infections.
His protocol "costs" nothing in that he does not profit from it other than the book. You read it, you get what you think makes sense anywhere you can find it. I really don't think this book is about making money via promotion of a faulty premise.
posted
I know far to lttle to give an opinion on Borreliosis "inteligence",but I had a passing thought that creeped me out and would make for good Sci-Fi. I "seems" that Borreliosis creats boarderline Hypothyriodism in many of its "Host" by changing their pituatary gland function(nuropathic) and effectivly lowering the host body temp. therebye creating an acceptable living inviroment'. Im just funn'in around but can you say "Puppet-Masters"....Creepy. Alan
-------------------- Charter member of the ~ Delux Toasting Club ~ Our Moto: "Take No Prisoners" Posts: 95 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
SForsgren, you say he does not profit from the use of these drugs? Does he mention anywhere in the book a name brand to buy or what brand he recomends? If so I will bet my life he profits from it.
I have not read the book and if anyone here could tell me if he does NOT mention a certain name brand I will get the book.
We the sick are fair game for the money hungry, if you have not noticed yet. I think there are a few people in here selling some bogus stuff.
Posts: 208 | From Greenville SC USA | Registered: May 2005
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
mo-i tried to pm you but your box was full. i mostly just wanted to say that i don't want restriction either, and that i have a lot of respect for you and i have been reading your posts for a long time. also-there must be some misunderstanding because i in no way am saying there is no place for herbs, supps, or alternative therapies. i have used them from the beginning. i was told to use them by my very medically oriented llmd. and i also do what dr b says---which is to use them.
my only problem is when someone says something will cure you from lyme...it is confusing to the newbies-i know many of them/us don't have money to throw away-and in addition this week i ran into a neurologist who has been totally turned off to us by patients who are telling him things that they heard on this board---things that are completely not true.
now-i know we can't control how people perceive what they read here and then the story might change before they tell the doc...and WHY a doc would pay any attention to hearsay---i don't know. but he did. and he is so upset(i don't blame him considering what he was told) he refuses to be involved with ilads or igenex or any of "us".
i guess thats another way i think misinformation is dangerous.
ann-oh-thank you. very informative.
lou-i'm glad you are here with your calming, objective presence. i know you understand my concerns and you express them better than me.
bothrups-thanks for jumping in.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
My goodness, Ann! LOL...but...
Bacteria have been on this earth way before us and will be way after us and we are made of them anyway, so go read Joshua Lederberg, Lynn Margulis, and Paul Ewald and throw in EO Wilson for good measure before you quote an idiot reviewer taking intelligence in some literal way as a neocortex.
They are intelligent.
As for herbs not working, well then what of artemesia, which is now a prime treatment for malaria in chloroquine resistant areas:
The herb is sweet Annie (Artemisia annua), also known in the West as sweet wormwood or annual wormwood and in China as Qinghao. Its cousin is the more familiar perennial wormwood, Artemisia absinthium.
The discovery's story began during the Vietnam War, when the North Vietnamese army constructed an elaborate network of underground tunnels. As the tunnels collected rainwater, mosquitoes that carried malaria reproduced in their standing water. The problem grew so severe that North Vietnam lost more soldiers to malaria than to military weapons.
Ho Chi Min, North Vietnam's leader, turned to China for help, and Chairman Mao Tse-tung assured him that China's scientists could develop a new malaria cure. Researchers at the Chinese Institute of Material Medicine found a region of China that reported no malaria cases, and when they investigated, they discovered that its people drank a decoction (simmered tea) of Artemesia annua at the first sign of malarial symptoms.
Contact NEHA
In 1972, the scientists isolated four chemical compounds in the plant: artesunate, artemether, arteether, and artemisinin. Three have medicinal applications. --- As for Buhner's 13 books, I know from personal correspondence from him that he put his own hepatitis into remission through herbs. I don't know about beer and poetry or whether his lyme protocol works. I would have preferred he'd used it on at least a dozen lymies first himself. There is a naturopath in Connecticut who started working with it this fall and I'll give her a call again in the spring and see what she says.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Bacteria intelligent. I thought you had to have thoughts, a brain, to be intelligent. Just because it can outwit us does not make it intelligent. It does what bacteria is suppose to do, nothing smart about it.
Ann im with you on this one. Sounds like all this man is good at is making money.
Posts: 208 | From Greenville SC USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I picked up a copy of Buhner's book. Haven't read it yet.
My thought is I read, I analyze, maybe I try a piece of one therapy by one person, a piece of something else by another. I find what works for ME, based on a lot of prior research and a test trial.
If it doesn't work I move on...I think we newbies learn that as we go along.
Ann-OH
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2020
posted
All organisms are opportunistic - they have to be in order to survive. Parasitic organisms are the most opportunistic because their survival depends on the survival of another organism. Ticks are parasitic and so are spirochetes.
To call opportunistic activity intelligence is faulty, as intelligence, by definition, has to do with mental capacity, and the ability to weigh options and make decisions.
I know a lot of opportunistic people who are far from intelligent. I believe they are often called "leeches". Interesting!
No doubt. I was joking, but serious. I really believe mine have PHD's.
Seriously, one prominant LLMD called Bb the 'evil genius'.
I do believe that about nails it.
Hey Miz Mo I think you'll like the book. I got allot out of it as far as a deeper understanding of the organisms and the immune system, effects of treatments....ect....very solid science info. I am not on the protocol myself at this time.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Mo, what brand of herd does he recommend?
Posts: 208 | From Greenville SC USA | Registered: May 2005
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Or as Mario Phillipe said, "You are looking at millions of years of evolution in a single moment" (with bb).
Ann, you lose by that narrow view. You have to take a wide enough embrace to understand evolution, from its very beginnings, symbiosis, complexity. Another good one to read is Stuart Kuaffman, and of course Freeman Dyson (genius physicist) his little book, Origins of Life. Another good one is John Wheeler with his "U" for universe, also for "U and I" meaning "You and I" and "U and Eye"--the human eye having evolved out of the gasses of the big bang, enough to be able to stare back in time at the big bang...the beginning of the U is the big bang, the end of the U is us...so far...
And there are many who think life was already in the universe way before earth and I'm one of those.
Your view of intelligence means the world is much less of a marvel to you than to these others.
If they are an algorithm, then so are you. And if we are intelligent, than so are they. They are us anyway. What do you think we're made of? What do you think our mitochondria are? Where do you think we came from? You ought to see the continuum, you will live in a much richer world that way.
Off my high horse
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
How do you know what works and what doesnt. Since so many of us throw so many things at lyme its darn near impossible to absolutely state what worked and what didnt.
If you have been taking abx and then start a herbal protocol and feel better is the feeling better due to the herbs or the previous abx.
Who knows??? No one can say for sure. Synergy can be a big unknown factor when mixing treatments.
I do know that mega magnesium acts as a major pain manager for me. If I stop it all my pain comes back pdq. Ive been taking if for several years and while it manages my pain I cant say its done anything to make me better in any other way. Im greatful for what it does do.
Posts: 561 | From connecticut | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Good point Sophie. I have been sayng that for some time. How do you know if it is not time itself that puts you in remission?
Posts: 208 | From Greenville SC USA | Registered: May 2005
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SForsgren
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Member # 7686
posted
One way would be to not treat yourself at all and then see if you recover. I personally, am not willing to be the subject of that experiment.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ann-OH
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2020
posted
Oxygenbabe, you said: [quote] Your view of intelligence means the world is much less of a marvel to you than to these others. [end quote]
Huh? That is a pretty heavy judgement of someone you do not know at all. I would question the intelligence in that statement.
Glad you got off that horse before it threw you.
I just hope everyone finds whatever they need to feel better.... and that they don't run out of money before they do.
The amazing thing with Lyme disease is that it is totally an individual disease for each individual.
I will never believe one treatment is the healer for all until someone comes up with the magic bullet for treatment and an infallible test for Lyme disease.
posted
Back to the Buhners book. I asked the question did Buhner mention a specific brand of drug or a name brand he recommends in this book?
Posts: 208 | From Greenville SC USA | Registered: May 2005
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GiGi
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posted
Bothrops, The author gives a list of many different shops for purchase of the herbs, etc. The herbs I think originate basically from the same source. There are not that many importers of chinese herbs into this country. Some shops sell them for more, some for less. It's a matter of checking around and comparing. You also have the decision of tinctures, decoctions, or capsules. Not all the shops carry all the different herbs in all forms.
It's difficult to understand all without the book to refer to.
I am glad Mr. Buhner put all his vast knowledge to paper. He definitely has a grasp of Lyme Disease not seen much elsewhere. It should help a lot of people, with minimal expense. Plant adaptogens for us were the ticket to health.
Take care.
[ 16. March 2006, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
-------------------------------------------- Further, the idea that the use of ground up plants will stop bacterial infection goes against sound reason. --------------------------------------------
Is it sound reason that bread mold kills bacteria?
Many if not most pharmaceuticals start from plants. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Well, well, WELL! It looks like ANOTHER thread made JUST FOR ME! RIGHT guys? LOL.
Before I go and get started, I want to applaud MO and GiGi for their "intelligent" input to this thread.
Why is it that MANY who have contributed, try to APPEAR intelligent, yet, have shown to have LESS intelligence than the "brainless" Spirochetes we are SUPPOSED to be at WAR with.
I think they must be working for the Spirochetes and/or OTHER "leeches", eh?
MY, MY, MY, where to start?!?!?!
I applaud Oxygenbabe also, at least for MOST of her first post. THAT was pretty good girl.
KAYAK:
You said this group becomes more dangerous every day because of MISINFORMATION. Geeeez, LOOK who STARTED THIS THREAD WITH misinformation!!!
Then, you don't seem to want to stop. You keep adding insult to injury. WHAT is with some of you people? No wonder Newbies have trouble deciphering the "good" from the "bad".
Are YOU in remission or cured from YOUR regimen of whatever YOU chose? Fill us in! Don't just knock someone else's IF you have NO knowledge of it. Buy the danged book and see what it is REALLY about. Why should WE have to WASTE our time on YOU, because maybe you are too cheap to buy it? Then ALL you do is ridicule!
What I don't understand is WHY YOU don't understand that the duck was turned off and why HE would believe heresay. Oh, I guess I just said WHY HE would do so. MY duck said the same. All you learn is garbage on the internet.
As to AnO, Bothrops, Kayak; I could go on and on to refute such rediculous statements, but for WHAT? It is pretty hard to hit your head against a brick wall. Just read Mathew 7:6, in our Instruction Book to Life; and you will understand the principle behind THAT statement.
Anyone who is too prideful, a naysayer or other kind of "jerk" please don't bother. YOU wouldn't understand anyway.
THAT being said, MANY have been CURED by antibiotics. MANY have been cured by Herbs. MANY have been cured by Abx and Herbs together. MANY have NOT been cured by abx. MANY have not been cured by Herbs, BECAUSE they have NOT gone for a proper protocol.
Yes, there are those out there TRYING to make money on all of this. Trying to sucker us in. I look at the sexual advertisements, for all the OVER priced stuff for say $40 or $60, that PROBABLY costs about $2 to make, and is crap. Now THAT is the business to get into IF you want to make BIG money.
Or the ducks and MANY of the LLMD's also, who are in it for the money. And Don't tell ME there aren't any LLMDS who are in it mainly for the money. I wasn't born yesterday. I have talked to MANY who have been taken by them. AND it is reported ALL the time. BUT, YES, there are some very good ones out there.
Unfortunately, there are not enough GOOD ones to go around, and many have to be saddled with those who are not much better than the regular lower priced ducks.
Buhner is NOT one of these. Yes, he makes a living. But NO, he is not getting RICH off treating patients, or selling drugs or even herbs. HE recommends certain NAME brands, soley because he KNOWS they were made in a PROPER way, QUALITY, with a sense of SAVING the earth instead of destroying it, like MOST of mainstream medicine and manufacturers do.
I have used some of his brand recommendations in the beginning, but not so much now. As I learn more and more about some other companies, I like them too, AND some are a little cheaper. But to each his own. Research it, change IF you don't like what you find out on some.
I personally WELCOME CHANGE. God knows we sure need it. Man has done everything he can to destroy our home. I mean Earth. It WILL be welcome WHEN He finally does destroy mankind as we know it today. Then and ONLY then, will we as a species thrive and live in peace and security and happiness.
Otherwise, to each their own, and HOPEFULLY some of you who have little or no knowledge, won't destroy TOO many of those that have even less. YOU are dangerous.
People like GiGi, MO and myself have been enlightened. AND we are humble enough to admit that we ARE learning more and more every day.
Ann-OH
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2020
posted
I think everyone should re-read what they are about to post before doing the deed.
Jim-Bob - All I can say is "Whew!"
I stand by everything I have posted here. I don't know any of you so I would not be so brazen as to pass judgement on you or your views of life, religion, science, etc.
As I said, [quoting my very self!] "I just hope everyone finds whatever they need to feel better.... and that they don't run out of money before they do." [end quote]
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Ann, that horse is never going to throw me, that horse has carried me through everything.
Define intelligence for me. Take a look at the marvel of the natural world around you. What made it? Why is there hemoglobin in the tubeworms at the sea vents way down at the bottom of the ocean floor? Why does life arise there again and again--and what kind of life is it? Microbes. I once asked Lynn Margulis if she thought microbes had choice--in the sense we humans would use it. She said it certainly looks like it. Let's say there is a particular microbe another one likes to eat. You can send a stream of food past it and it will watch and wait, watch and wait, until it pounces on a particular one.
I stand by what I said. To say that these bugs are not intelligent is to misunderstand intelligence, the origins and evolution of life, and the building blocks of your own intelligence. You are standing on the shoulders of giants, and those giants are microbes. They made you. You are evolved from them. If they cannot write the farts and seizure section, nonetheless they will outlast us. Yep, long after our "intelligent" species has died out, and it will, like all species do, and in this case probably by our own hand with global warming, they will adapt, persist, and be the source of yet another flowering of life (there have been five mass extinctions on this planet already).
Those who really study evolution, biology, and life, live in a world of near-miracles. And any biologist worth his salt who studies any particular organism is in awe. That's what Mario Phillipe was trying to say. You are witnessing millions of years of evolution in a single moment.
For those who call it an algorithm then you'll have to accede that every neuron firing is just obeying an algorithm. And then you'll have to reduce your own intelligence to "algorithms" unless you want to elevate it all to the beauty and mystery of math.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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There is no doubt that I believe in evolution and I know that bacteria is evolving quicker than the abx we are producing. So I do believe that bactria is intelligent, figurlativly speaking. Bacteria does what it is suppose to do, it finds an opening and invdades. Very simple.
Jim, it surprizes me that you believe in evolution. However, it does not surprize me in your frequant rudeness towards others, very christian like. If anything is going to turn newbies away it is rude behavior that many here have, myself included.
The only reason I stuck around on this post was to see if anyone could answer my question. It has been answered so im out of here.
I would trust an llmd over a Buhner any day and I really dont trust the llmd much. However, if Buhners work ends up at my library, I will check it out.
Posts: 208 | From Greenville SC USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I'm amazed that some people first have to bring down, pass judgement and even insult other people and then go on tellig us how wonderful and smart they themselves are.
Is it that difficult to just stick to the point and add your 2 cents?
Why you gotta be personal?
At least for myself, I take nothing away from your posts due to the nasty tone.
Is that what you want?
Don't you want to be heard?
Don't you want to be taken seriously?
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Without herbs and plants there would be no synthetic pharmaceuticals since the early pharmaceuticals and many now are just manmade derivatives of herbs.
Just a personal observation but it would seem to me that an extremely intelligent bacteria would be more easily killed by an agent from its world like an herb or plant then by some synthetic blend derived from humans.
-------------------- �Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.� - Ezre Taft Benson Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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Worthless tests & labs, a dangerous vaccine, insurance companies refuse to pay, undertreatment the norm, all about money. MO. Posts: 281 | From CT | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Lymied:
I agree with you to a point. There would be NONE without the plants to begin with. WE would NOT be here if it were not for the plants. Plants are food for EVERYTHING in one form or another.
However, the "synthetic" items are NOT the way our bodies were created to work with the things designed by the same creator. They work "best" when used in the "natural" original design. I have never seen a GOOD mutation.
VITCH:
YES, you misunderstood.
MANY have on THIS thread and many others too. But since some just won't reason it out, I have given up with them, and just let it lie. I will do other things with my time, like helping myself and others who WANT help.
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Mo
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