posted
I don't think so, if the info in Arno Karlen's book "Biography of a Germ" is correct.
On the bottom of pg 109, he says:
"...Bb is present in infected cow's milk, but fortunately this is no threat to humans,since any spirochetes not killed by pasteurization are digested if we swallow them. To infect a mammal, Bb must travel directly from the tick's hemolymph to the mammal's blood."
He doesn't list the references, but if this is correct, the person you're kissing should be ok, unless maybe they have a cut, bleeding gums, or cold sore in their mouth that Bb could enter.
I'd been worried about that too, and was relieved some when I read that.
Patti
Posts: 449 | From Pasadena, CA, usa | Registered: Aug 2005
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
If kiss could transmit Bb, the salivary would be the best sample to detect Bbs by PCR.
Posts: 77 | From USA | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
for what it's worth, what i've found is that some folks (i.e. lida mattman, scientist who wrote that huge impressive texbook on L-form bugs, etc) say you can get it via casual contact... but many others (even those who do believe in sexual transmission) will say they don't think kissing or other salivary contact is a risk. and then there's the folks who insist that despite its' very close relationship to syphillis and the fact that many, many sexual partners mysteriously seem to turn up ill (myself incuded), that it's just not transmitted sexually. of course i think they have their heads in the sand...
and uh, speaking of uh... head..... does it need to be pointed out that when wondering about oral sex and disease transmission that it may not be the SALIVA that's the issue there...?
in fun and good wishes, flossie
Posts: 773 | From yahoo.com | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I wouldn't worry about it, if you're a male.
I haven't kissed a girl in years, because no one is interested in someone who can't hold down a job and spends half their time sleeping.
women are interested in walking talking ATM machines. if you're a male with lyme disease, you're screwed. and not in a good way.
kissing or sexual transmission? I wish that was something I had to worry about. as it is, I simply don't care.
Posts: 523 | From Stillwater,OK,USA | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lpkayak: hmmmmmmmm.....so what about oral sex...can i say that here?
just don't ask if any hot single women are going to the hope to heal conference, and you'll be fine.
oral sex? I can barely remember that. those memories are clouded in with the "I still believe in santa claus" years. they're both so far away in time, they might as well be the same. 4 light years or 50 light years, what difference does it make if it's going to take you 80,000 years just to go one light year?
although I never believed in the easter bunny. santa at least was a human. but a giant rabbit bouncing around carrying easter goodies? also I was bothered by the "how does he get in the house" enigma. santa comes through the roof. does the easter bunny use the front door, the back door, a window, or what? True, I couldn't concieve of the easter bunny as a 'back door' man, but that still left a lot of holes to be filled in.
Posts: 523 | From Stillwater,OK,USA | Registered: Sep 2004
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
breaking this up for us neuro lymies to read.. Flossie, please hit the enter button more often ok; thanks on our behalf.
Lida Mattman made the comment at marshall protocol conference in Wisc. in 2004/5?, I believe that there were 4 more ways of getting LD: It's probably on MP board. I can't remember them all but sneezing, coughing, laughing by spitting accidently, and another one.
quote:Originally posted by flossie: for what it's worth, what i've found is that some folks
(i.e. lida mattman, scientist who wrote that huge impressive texbook on L-form bugs, etc )
say you can get it via casual contact...
but many others (even those who do believe in sexual transmission) will say they don't think kissing or other salivary contact is a risk.
and then there's the folks who insist that despite its' very close relationship to syphillis and the fact that many, many sexual partners mysteriously seem to turn up ill (myself incuded),
that it's just not transmitted sexually. of course i think they have their heads in the sand...
and uh, speaking of uh... head..... does it need to be pointed out that when wondering about oral sex and disease transmission that it may not be the SALIVA that's the issue there...?
in fun and good wishes, flossie
From my NON-MEDICAL opinion and experience, can you get lyme from kissing?
YES, I'm an example of that! Feb. 1970, I'd been with a guy I'd met who I didn't know had MONONUCLEOSIS. Being young and naive, got into a good kissing session, and we was just burning up. I didn't think much of it then.
(Earlier this year I inquired about this man as I read his obituary in the newspaper. I asked someone about his death, and I believe he commited suicide as he'd broken up w/wife.)
Then several weeks later, I came down with mono sx and went to the dr. He promptly dx me with MONO, and 2 weeks in bed. I have no idea what meds I was given back then.
Well, that was the beginning of my UNKNOWN LYME disease that became full-blown CHRONIC LYME that was misdx for 34 years until 6-04.
That's when the majority of my sx started: ------------------------------------------ chronic fatigue; fibromyalgi pain which took 25+ yrs. to dx; my SUPER SENSITIVIE EYES plus sounds/noise; PMS; tmj, irritable bowel/bladder, migrianes, acid reflux, and the list goes on.
So again, I say YES TO KISSING started my lyme disease journey.
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Yes, absolutely. Lyme and co-infections can be spread through all body fluids. If they can be cultured from door handles and telephone booths, where do you think they come from.
Scientists doing research with these critters are not allowed to Fedex even the testing materials any more. You hold your hand on your lip, and shake someone's hand, that's a possible transfer depending on what your status is.
That makes it a family disease. Not only via the cat and the dog or the ticks in or outside the house. It is the physical contact.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
If it can be transfered via kissing....this is even scarier then i thought.
I became ill with the majority of my symptoms in May, shortly after I started dating someone new. He was slightly sick with similar symptoms to what i had, but mine seemed to get worse.
He joked and said we were reinfecting eachother.
I do remember us both waking up one morning with chest tightness...his dr said his was anxiety.
He worked outdoors a lot so who knows.
Now this has me wondering ...maybe i was reinfected this way as i was bit by a tick in 2000.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Very scary indeed! When I think back I often wonder if I got bit by a tick, mosquito or transferred sexually. Who knows, I just want to get rid of it.
I recently saw two friends from high school who were sick with Lyme. It sounded exactly like my story and turns out she was treating with the same doctor. That really blew my mind. Is it true that Lyme is now surpassing AIDs as the fastest spreading disease?
Posts: 204 | Registered: Jan 2005
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Could you post a reference to Bb being cultured from surfaces like doorknobs, etc? I've been wondering how long Bb survives outside the body.
If that's the case, do you think that my mom could have gotten it from me when I was at my worst and she came to take care of me?
This past August, when I was at my worst and didn't know what was wrong w/me, my 91 yo mom came to stay with me and do what she could to take care of me. I was coughing and sneezing a lot at the time, in addition to not being able to walk.
A month later she developed a rash which hasn't gone away. Her Drs have tried a number of things, and yet it persists. She said it started the month after she stayed with me.
I asked my LNP about the possibility of her catching it from me, but she insisted that it was spread only by sex, but I still wondered.
Thank you,
Patti
Posts: 449 | From Pasadena, CA, usa | Registered: Aug 2005
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trails
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1620
posted
The jury IS still out on this one.
However, Arno Karlen's book I believe was wrong in it's steadfast support that ONLY ticks can transmit Bb. (I had other gripes about the book too, but on the whole it was FANTASTIC!) There have been reported cases of transmition via horseflies. Here is one place I found info:
Verhandl Dtsch Ges Inn Med 1967; 72:975-1006 Durch Arthropoden �bertragene Erkrankungen der Haut und des Nervensystems Schaltenbrand G
"For the first time, a clear distinction is made between EM-related nervous system disorders and tick-borne encephalitis. Common signs of the EM neurologic condition are described as inflarnmation of the nerves, inflammation of the spinal cord, and cranial nerve palsy. G. Schaltenbrand asserts that the Ixodes tick is probably the primary vector, but that about 10% of the patients get the disease from the bite of a horsefly. source: Karen V. Forschner: Everything You Need To Know About Lyme disease."
Also A NEJM article:
Lyme Disease Transmitted by a Biting Fly N Engl J Med 1990 Jun 14;322(24):1752
paraphrasing here: B. burgdorferi has been identified in biting flies, and there has been anecdotal mention of possible transmission of B. burgdorferi by such flies. 5,6 This repost describes a case of Lyme disease transmitted by a fly bite.
On July 10, 1989, while jogging with no shirt on, a 42-year-old man from Old Lyme, Connecticut, an area in which Lyme disease is endemic, was bothered by a large fly that he believed to be either a deerfly or a horsefly. After swatting at it unsuccessfully, he was bitten by the fly several times on the right side of the chest. The bites were acutely painful. The area around the bites was swollen for one to two days; the swelling then subsided. The patient was not aware of any tick bites in teh previous three months. On July 23, he presented with classic erythema migrans surrounding the bite area, headache, chills, fever, myalgias, arthralgias, and fatigue.
The patient had a temperature of 37.2�C and a pulse of 76 per minute. Examination disclosed a 16-cm by 11-cm rash (erythema migrans) on the right side of the chest, with several small papular areas in it's center consistent with fly bites No regional adenopathy was present, and no cardiac, joint, or neurologic abnormalities were found. A diagnosis of Lyme disease was made, and treatment was initiated with amoxicillin (500 mg three times a day) and probenecid (500 mg three times a day) for 10 days. On the first night after treatment the patient had a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, with a fever and worsening of his headache and myalgias. At his 10- and 30- day follow-up visits he was asymptomatic, and has remained well since.
Antibody titres to B. burgdorferi were determined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assays in the acute phase and at the 10- and 30- day follow-up visits. These analyses confirmed a more than four-fold rise in antibodies to B. burgdorferi (Table 1). Results of other laboratory tests were within normal limits.
The patient was bitten by a biting fly (an act he both saw and felt) and subsequently presented with Lyme disease, with erthema migrans at the site of the bite. Serologic testing confirmed a more than fourfold rise in antibodies to B. burgdorferi. In contrast to the painless bite of I. dammini, the bite of flies is painful and not likely to be overlooked by the patient as a means of transmission of Lyme disease. I conclude that although in most cases Lyme disease is transmitted by the bite of ixodes ticks, it may rarely be transmitted by biting flies. STEVEN W. LUGER, M.D.
[ 28. March 2006, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: trails ]
Posts: 1950 | From New Mexico | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I think there is WAY too much speculation concerning how Lyme is transmited.If you make a conclusive statement about sexual or casual Lyme trasmition,please include ALL the factual steps that led you to that conclusion.Including the individual cases and the exact transmition route. Thanks Alan
-------------------- Charter member of the ~ Delux Toasting Club ~ Our Moto: "Take No Prisoners" Posts: 95 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Thereminator: I think there is WAY too much speculation concerning how Lyme is transmited.
There wouldn't be if the CDC did their job.
CLINICAL AND IMMUNOLOGIC EVIDENCE FOR TRANSMISSION OF LYME DISEASE THROUGH INTIMATE HUMAN CONTACT.
RB Stricker,1* DH Moore,2 EE Winger.3 1Department of Medicine and 2Geraldine Brush Cancer Research Institute, California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, CA; and 3Laboratory Corporation of America, San Leandro, CA.
(sorry the whole thing wouldn't post, here's the summary.
Conclusions:
Couples with chronic Lyme disease and discordant histories of tickbite show significant differences in symptom scores and CD57 NK levels compared to couples with concordant histories of tickbite. These findings suggest that Lyme disease may be transmitted by intimate human contact. Effective treatment of chronic Lyme disease may involve concomitant therapy of the patient's seropositive partner.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The fact that the CDC isnt doing its job dosnt force anyone into submitting unproven "Truths". I would like to think that we can hold ourselves closer to the same standard of reason that we expect from organizations like the CDC and Med. profesionals,in genaral. I also think that "profesional" incompetance makes the value of our standards all the more important.Of course,I respect(and value)your right too disagree. Alan
-------------------- Charter member of the ~ Delux Toasting Club ~ Our Moto: "Take No Prisoners" Posts: 95 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Thereminator: The fact that the CDC isnt doing its job dosnt force anyone into submitting unproven "Truths". Alan
It does force us to speculate with what we got
but I hear ya, a good argument is only as strong as it's logic and/or it's source.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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Aniek
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5374
posted
If Lyme were transmitted through kissing, then wouldn't it be transmitted similary to mono? You would think that Lyme would be running rampant on college campuses throughout the country, the way mono does. Whole dorms would be coming down sick because one person brought Lyme in.
I have had Lyme since I was 12. I'm 31 now. None of my ex-boyfriends I am in touch with have Lyme.
I know whole households that have Lyme. But I think that could be easily explained through sexual transmission, pregnancy and breastfeeding, or common exposure to ticks.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Nice logic Aniek. Bb can remain in it's motile form from sexual contact. (especially male to female) With all other modes of transmission the need for cyst formation occurs. That, I would guess, lessens the possibility of Bb spreading.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
I know theres some evidence out there for sexual transmission.
But I often wondered if the "partner" who got lyme
Got lyme becuase they both where living where
ticks are found? Could it be possible that both people got bite? Could they both be living in an endemic area?
Just thinkin out loud. Not trying to start anything here.
Take care dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 5dana8: Could it be possible that both people got bite? dana
I don't see why not but the evidence for horizontal transfer is pretty strong.
From my LLMD "Our clinical experience strongly suggests that predictable, possibly inevitable Bbsl transfer between sexually active couples occurs."
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
For peer review science/literature on anything I post, please go to www.neuraltherapy.com. You will find the references there; hundreds of them.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
My LLMD told me that he only sees about 1 out of 100 patients where spouses have lyme disease also. Just something to think about.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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Linda LD
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6663
posted
I found out my old boyfriend had Lyme.
My sister wants me to call him and see who treated him.
I keep hoping I will run into him...
L
Posts: 1171 | From Knoxville, TN US | Registered: Dec 2004
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by Happygolucky: It's all in the Genes.
Jeans
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I have had lyme for 8 years and I just got married in October. My lyme specialist did not see any need to worry.
My husband is healthy and fine. But that is scary to think I could somehow give him this disease.
I have been through many rounds of antibiotic therapy, IV, Im, and oral. Maybe this makes a difference.
My parents also lived in close contact with me when I was sick, taking care of me, and they are fine.
You would think that Dr's would be extra careful when touching us, like wearing gloves to examine around our eyes and our mouths and throats, if this was something to really be worried about.
I guess it can happen, but I think it would be even more prevalent if it could spread person to person so easily.
It really is ridiculous that the medical community doesn't have any specifics about lyme on this matter.
Sometimes I wonder if more people died of lyme rather than just being chronically ill, if we would get more attention.
Posts: 8 | From NY | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lilysue: Sometimes I wonder if more people died of lyme rather than just being chronically ill, if we would get more attention.
It's bigger than "Lyme" which is the zoonotic part of the disease. A very small part of the borrelia family which contains an unimaginable amount of "strains". It's an epidemic. google Harvey Pandemic
One pubmed article had 100% positive for those with alzheimers symptoms the control had 0%. Similar studies have shown the same for ALS, Fibro, etc.
My guess as to why no attention is being given is that traditional abx can in no way cure the masses. Why alarm them to something in which nothing can be done?
Or so they thought. The magic bullets needed are here. Just ask Dr. Burgdorfer from which lyme gets its name. Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Gee, since the world is to end in our generation, do you think it is Lyme Spirochetes that God is going to use to get rid of all the bad people rather than angels???
WHAT is YOUR thought on that?
Don't forget that FLEAS also give you Lyme Disease. Better get rid of all your cats and dogs too. Not only get rid of any horses you may have. Don't even go near them. And PLEASE don't let them into your house.
The snow is almost all gone now and pretty soon the frost will be out of the ground, then the ticks, flies, fleas, and everything else that gives us the dreaded disease will be out full force having "their" contact with us, do THEIR sexual thing, to us. Invading our bodies. Infesting us.
WHAT are we to do?
Maybe we can dig three gigantic holes. One out east, one here in the midwest, and one out west. Then we can just bulldoze all the people into them.
Maybe THAT would stop Lyme disease?!?!
Used to be IF you and your faithful partner actually WERE faithful to each other, you had NO sexual disease transmission worries. NOW you can't even shake someones hand without fear, IF you believe everything that has been posted on this thread.
It won't make any difference whether it is sex, oral or normal; kissing, french or just a peck; holding hands, sneezing, crying on someones shoulder; giving backrubs; drinking out of the same bottle or glass.
Maybe we should eat, sleep, drink, watch TV, all in different rooms or even different houses? Maybe even everyone get divorced. NO nursing of babies. Only eat what you personally grow. Don't allow ANYONE to touch your food.
Oh, yes, we should dig a fourth hole to bulldoze all of the pets into.
Maybe we could design a special cocoon that each one could live in, separate from the rest of the world.
WOULD we be safe THEN???
SOMEBODY, somewhere, knows WHAT to do. BUT WHO?
OR, we can say the hell with it and just keep doing what we and everybody else is doing.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Here's the thing, in my humble opinion:
Just because your partner/ spouse/ boyfriend is not symtomatic does not mean that he/she is free of Bb. I have proven that with my own "significant other". His blood is teeming with L-form Bb. But no doctor - even an LLMD - would even "clinically diagnose" him with Lyme.
Sometimes it takes a lot of years before significant symptoms appear.
So to me, the "no symptoms, no treatment" approach is a little short-sighted maybe? Perhaps a little herbal/alternative bug killing early on can prevent serious symptoms and damage in the future.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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