5dana8
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posted
I Am quite desperate to get to the cause of my nausea. My doc is saying gallbladder...
Does anyone know if nausea can be caused by the ballbladder in lack of stones and pain not being present.
I had an ultrasound yesterday and showed no stones.
I have a hydro-wash on monday where they inject stuff into a vein to see if the GB is working and not slugging.
The doc seems to think my GB is causeing my 2 months of nausea. I have had to stop all abx since then. And am wanting to get to the bottom of the cause of my nausea so I can resume treatment.
I am scheduled to see a surgen next month. But am not in a hurry for surgury since surgury on my back started my relaspe 3 years ago.
I am beginning to think lyme can cause GI problems and this may be the case.I finished my treatment for babs. Don't think the babs is a cause here. All a moot point at this time as I can hardly stomach real food let alone meds.
Pleas help. Sorry for the long post...its a long story.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated
I am feeling quite desperate and hopeless.
Thanks a head of time dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I don't think your gall bladder is causing your nausea. I'm no medical expert, though... However, Nausea was a major symptom of lyme etc. at first for me.
I see your doc thought it might be gall bladder. I guess that says something, butdocs are often unnecessarirly pessamistic. I'd look for something simple first! . Milk thistle is known to be helpful for liver function, and is probably good for gall bladder, too.
Also are you on rocephin or other cephalosporin? They are the abx known to foul up the gall bladder (cause "sludge").
I hope you feel a whole lot better soon! DaveS
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5dana8
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posted
Thanks daveS for your reply
I will try and get back on the milk thistle. I am afraid to take it at this time because of the nausea.
I was never on rocephin or cephalosporan.
I haven't taken abx for 2 months. I had to stop because of the extreame nausea. I thought maybe I trashed my stomach with the heavy orals I had been taking for babs.But the nausea should have cleared up by now in 2 months.
I hope its not lyme. I would be pretty much screwd because I can't even take a tylonol because of my stomach let alone any more orals. I did 6 months IV and 2 years follow-up on orals.
I can't take the injectables because am allergic to the abx that is in injectable form.
Thanks for your reply.
dana
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5dana8
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posted
p.s.
I searched here and read the posts lately on the gallbaldder.
I haven't read too much information about problems with the GB without stones or pain.
Can you have a gallbladder problem in the absence of stones and pain-just nausea?
Thanks dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Dana, I have numerous gastrointestinal issues, mainly a sluggish GB. My HIDA scan showed my GB is operating at a borderline level, but I have no stones.
I have a constant burning pain just below my right rib cage that they think is GB related. I have been to two surgeons about removing my GB but one wouldn't do it and the other gave me a 50-50 chance of feeling better.
I have heard Lyme likes to get into organs like the GB and cause it to dysfunction where nothing else shows up on tests. I took bile salts for six weeks and it helped. I also take Milk Thistle. You may want to try Dandelion Root tincture, too.
PM me if you want more info. I have the same problem and dilemma as you except maybe not as much nausea.
Do you have reflux? I do, and that can cause nausea!
Posts: 331 | From virginia | Registered: Nov 2005
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5dana8
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posted
Thanks Vachick
Thanks for sharing your information about your GB.
I am gonna re-start the milk thistle tonight. My liver functions have all been normal but figure it can't hurt.
I don't have re-flux problems but alot of nausea and burping . And often at the point of vomiting without actually doing so.
My LLMD did say he was just ruling out the GB issue with the hydro-wash test on Monday and said today that Lyme and its co-infections can cuase nausea and GI problems.
It is really frustrating and hopeless right now. If I can't stomach the meds to fight the lyme-co-infections then I am really screwd. Three years of intensive treatment and herxing like a dog and its all going up in smoke because I can't stomach anything any more. The lyme is coming back fast.
I am so thin right now I can't afford to lose another pound and don't know what to do. I have never been so miserable and hopeless like this. Not like me at all.
Thanks for your reply Hope you can feel better soon too. This is ridiculous I am gonna go have a good cry.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Hi Buddy: Get me at my email addresss and list out all herbs ,anything you done last few weeks . I try to see if I can figure anything out.
Posts: 719 | From Delaware | Registered: Jan 2006
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Dana, Are they sure you don't have reflux? Vomiting and nausea are definitely signs of reflux. Did they say for sure that you don't have it.
My doc keeps saying irritable bowel, but that has gone away as I got older. have they ever mentioned that? Have they checked your upper intestines/bowels?
The reason I mention Milk Thistle is that it can thin the bile coming from the liver and make it easier for the GB to pass it through.
What in the heck is a hydro-wash test?
Posts: 331 | From virginia | Registered: Nov 2005
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Aniek
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Dana,
I went through many tests related to my gallbladder. I understand wanting to rule it out. But it seems odd to consider surgery when you have no stones and no symptoms specific to the gall bladder.
I have had nausea problems as well. Not to the point of vomitting, but to the point where I would eat less and found I had to stop the anti-yeast diet. I just can't eat without starch or fruit in my stomach.
I also had what seemed clearly like a gallbladder attack. Acute pain in my upper right abdominal quadrant. Worst pain I have ever had, lasted for about 3 hours. I had it one other time, after a colonoscopy while still at the hospital.
All tests show it's not my gall bladder. Had ultrasounds and HIDA Scan (which sounds like the test your doctor is having you take).
My LLMD thinks it is actually my pancreas. This is, unfortunately, harder to figure out. My gastroenterologist wants to see a blood test when I'm having an attack. I do get mild attacks sometimes, but I keep getting them when all the blood draw places or closed or I'm in the middle of an exam.
My LLMD said pancreatitis can cause nausea especially when eating fats.
Nausea can be caused by so many things. It could be that you have bacteria in your gut dieing, it could just be the medicine you are on, it could be food sensitivities.
I did a short elimination diet. I didn't last long enough because I started Flagyl and wanted comfort foods. But I did discover that tofu, brown rice and most fish makes me nauseous. Of course, I was eating all that trying to be healthy!
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jill E.
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Dana,
I feel for you because I had similar symptoms when I had chronic fatigue syndrome many years ago - before I was bitten by the tick more recently.
I would have bouts of excrutiating upper abdominal pain, burping, nausea - all classic gallbladder disease symptoms and had been through numerous gallbladder scans, liver scans, pancreatic tests, etc. They never showed any stones or abnormalities so of course the mainstream medical doctors didn't know what it was. But I even stumped the holistic doctors.
Like Aniek said in the above post, I, too, always ran into problems having an attack when the doctor's office was closed. One time I had some blood work during a mild attack and it showed lots of inflammation - but from what, who knows.
I have learned from my Celiac Disease email lists that many people with gluten issues/leaky gut/celiac disease have pancreatic insufficiency, leading to all kinds of digestive issues. Many did better using pancreatic enzymes or prescription pancreatic medications. So perhaps the pancreas is a link.
Would your doctor be willing for you to try some pancreatic enzymes or digestive enzymes? Of course, with you feeling so horrible, the last thing you want to do is take something you may not react well to.
Ginger was the only thing that helped my nausea a little, but of course that didn't get to the root cause.
I will say that I rarely have an attack or have just a very mild attack ever since going gluten-free.
I know we all tend to jump on the "take milk thistle, do a detox" bandwagon with Lyme. But I went through being off antibiotics for five months when I had serious liver damage. Many people recommended that I increase the liver herbs,do colonics, enemas, etc.
But in fact, my liver was so seriously damaged, that anything that would have forced it to dump more toxins could have been dangerous for me. So until you know what's wrong, I personally would go cautiously at forcing your liver or gallbladder to be dumping toxins and bile.
I will keep you in my thoughts. I know how horrible chronic nausea is.
Please let us know how the tests go.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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Jill E.
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Hi again, Dana,
One more wild thought - there is something called Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO). It's when the bacteria that should be in the large intestine get into the small intestine where they shouldn't be. The results can be burping, bloating, nausea, all kinds of irritable bowel-type symptoms.
I had started treatment for it several years ago when I had just contracted Lyme but didn't realize it.
To test for it, you have to drink a particular concoction, and if you have the bad bacteria in your small intestine, they let off methane or some kind of gas. So you do these breathing tests every few minutes for three hours to measure the rise of specific gases in the breath. I was very high in my levels.
The treatment is a series of short-term courses of antibiotics. Kind of like Lyme treatment, but you are on each antibiotic for 10 days or so, not months.
I went through a few months of treatment, my burping diminished a lot, but then I became symptomatic with Lyme and dropped out.
You would think that Lyme antibiotics would knock the SIBO out, too, but I know a woman with Lyme who is also being treated for SIBO.
If your doctor has ever heard of this or thinks there is any validity for you to be tested, I could put you in touch with my Lyme pal who is being treated.
I was treated for SIBO at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles by the doctors who discovered SIBO.
Again, this is probably a long-shot. I would think your situation is more Lyme-related. But I am just throwing out anything that might have been overlooked, just because I know you are feeling desperate for help.
Take care, Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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5dana8
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posted
Thanks iceskater thanks I will e-mail you with a list. but at present am not taking any thing except mastic gum and some basic supps.I stopped all suups. didn't feel any better, then gradually added the basics.
Thanks Vanchick No reflu. definetely. Just extreame nausea. Could be IBS. I have had a problem in worse const lately.Something to consider .
Thanks Aniek I would love to stop my anti-yeast diet but I have a hudge problem with yeast.I am trying a new anti-fungal this weekend.
Thanks Jill I was checked a while back for celtic disease but neg. I don't eat any wheat any way.But thanks for the thought.
I will have to ask my GI doc about leaky-gut,IBS,and the SIBO and the pancreas.
I was trying to avoid a trip to the GI doc. They usually scope me-don't find anything- then just tell me to take prilosec,carafate and promethazine. Which I have tryed all three.
Thanks again for sharing with me and being so supportive dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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liz28
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posted
Dana, I don't remember exactly which antibiotics you were on, but seem to remember it contained a lot of duplicates, and several very strong drugs.
If you print the abx regimen, maybe someone can suggest a substitute.
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liz28
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Dana, I don't remember exactly which antibiotics you were on, but seem to remember it contained a lot of duplicates, and several very strong drugs.
If you print the abx regimen, maybe someone can suggest a substitute.
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5dana8
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Thanks liz28
You name it and I have been on just about every abx combo there is over the last 3 years. My memory isn't so good though to name each one.
But I have had to be off abx for the last 2 & 1/2 months. I was treating for babs.
The babs did clear up. Finally after 20 years no more fevers/chills. And no more sweats.
The main workers where biaxin mepron and artemninisin. I had to stop because of the nausea. Now 2 & 1/2 months later still bad.
At the end of my rope. I don't want to lose all my progress. But if it turns out to be lyme and or its evil co-s I am really over. Can't stomach food ,let alone any more meds.
Thanks for posting dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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I had my gallbladder taken out in '97 after the birth of my first child. I had terrible knife like pains in my upper back and I will never forget that attack. I was rushed to the ER and when they checked me out they said the gallbladder was inflammed and I had lots of tiny stones. A few days later I had it taken out.
I had a lot of nausea, GI symptoms, and IB stuff after that. They did an endoscopy later on me and thought I might have ulcers. Nothing -just some unknown "red spots". In 2002 I was finally diagnosed with lyme/bartonella and I believe I had it for at least 5 years at that point.
When the traditional tests stopped showing the lyme and I still had symptoms and had been on orals for a year and a half- another scope was done. This time they sent the stomach tissue samples to MDL. The samples showed positive for Lyme and Mycoplasma. It thrives in the gut and can stay there a long time. I was amazed!
Anyway before you do any surgery - is it possible to have an endoscopy done and have the samples sent to Igenex or MDL? Maybe then you may find the culprit that is probably causing the horrible symptoms. I don't know what protocols you have used or what co-infections you were treated for. I do know that Bartonella can cause a lot of GI problems too.
I would not have your gall bladder out unless it was severely inflammed or had lots of stones. I think in one of Dr. B's videos/DVDs it talks about lyme loving the gall bladder.
I know you must be going through a lot and I feel for you! It truly stinks when we feel that way. I wish you much healing.
Posts: 238 | From Bethlehem, PA | Registered: Oct 2004
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AZURE WISH
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posted
Over the years I have had nausea from the lyme itself.... wicked nausea.
In more recent years I have been diagnosed with gastroparesis (sp?) which means my stomach digests slow....
the food sitting in the stomach too long can cause nausea and vomitting.
posted
Are you having a pipida/HIDA scan with CCK? That will show gallbladder sluging or not. It will give a reading for the ejection fraction. I had sludging whil eon Rocephin and my GB went back to normal in a few months. Many people jump into having it removed when the body can heal itself.
Nause can be from many things, what meds are you on? Do you have co-infections? Haveyou been tested for h.pylori and had an endoscopy with biopsy for tick borne disease and h.pylori?
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5dana8
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Thanks Hides1 For sharing your experience. That is so amazing that BB can survive stomach acid. Unbelieveable. Glad they caught that on your biospy. Crafty devils. Is your stomach better now after treatment? I hope so. I will try to avoid surgury at all costs. It is possible to have a scope. That will take at least a month to do.
Azure wish Thanks for your post. sorry to hear of your nausea too. Is there any treatment for gastropaesis? I do take a digestive enzyme after dinner, but only if I can stomach anything substantial like chicken. Only bland foods if I am lucky. Last night chicken broth. I will think about the food thing. Not sure at this point. Just a constant feeling like I am gonna puke.
Wildcondor
Thanks for your suggestions and questions too. Didn't do rochephin. On monday I am having an HIDA scan. Tested positive for babs & neg for bart-although I have had alot of bart symptoms. Not on any meds for 2 months,except occationally diflucan.
If I go to a GI again I will ask about the H.pylori and the lyme biospy.I have been taking mastic gum 500 mg 2XD for the last 2 months just in case.
Thanks again for your suggestions and support dana
posted
One obvious cause of nausea that noone has mentioned is intestinal parasites such as giardia -- very hard to get accurate testing.
Also, you mentioned that you were on Babs treatment when this started -- think you said your liver enzymes were ok, but what about bilirubin levels?
When babs is killed off the dead red blood cells are supposed to be processed through the liver -- if there is a back up the bilirubin numbers will be elevated.
Hubby has had nausea for the entire 5 years of his illness -- sometimes it bothers him 70% of the time and other times maybe 30% of the time. Doesn't matter what meds he takes or even when he is off meds
-- the only thing that helps is when Bilirubin level is in normal range as result of Babs treatment. Nausea still doesn't go away, but is obviously present less of the time.
Early in his illness when his Bilirubin would become elevated he ended up in the psych ward a couple of times -- all other bloodwork was normal and he didn't have a diagnosis at the time.
Besides the nausea hubby has dry heaves -- doesn't usually actually vomit food -- this can even happen on an empty stomach. No pain though and no gallstones.
A gross question, but what color are your stools? If they are not dirt brown then you are probably not releasing enough bile and various toxins are being stored in the liver or recirculated in your body. Bile is what gives stools their color.
The reason Lyme and Babesia affect the gallbladder so much is because it is activated by acetylcholine. Choline causes the gallbladder to release bile.
Various things which may be of some benefit to get the bile to dump are: coffee enemas, castor oil packs, oral phosphatidylcholine supplements, or a gallbladder flush -- very mild version would be 1 or 2 tablespoons of olive, flax or other good quality oil with a glass of lemonade with stevia made from 1/2 or a whole lemon. Do the flush nightly before bed.
If any of these helps you should see darker stools and nausea may be less and you should just feel better in general.
This is not medical advice, just my opinion based on hubby's experiences -- he has tried all of these things at various times with varying amounts of success.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Hi Dana. Sorry about the nausea. I sure can relate to that A LOT.
Mepron has a very long half-life, so it could be that. It was for me.
Ginger Aid Tea from Traditional Medicinals really clobbers the nausea for me...at least for a while. I get it at the Health Food store. It is a bit expensive (about $4.00 for 16 bags). Yogi Teas probably has one also.
Peppermint tea or mint is helpful also.
When I posted a long time ago on the CFS site about my nausea someone answered "God made ginger and peppermint for nausea".
I also take Zantac 75 and Extra Strength Mylanta.
I hope some of these posts help you. Nausea really stops me dead. I sit perfectly still because moving makes it worse.
-------------------- tj Posts: 296 | From Portland, OR | Registered: Jun 2003
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WildCondor
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posted
Cool! Just FYI on the peppermint. Make sure the capsules are enteric coated because if not you can get more nausea and heartburtn from the peppermint. Ginger can help. Carafate Rx helps me. If it keeps up yes you can get a endoscope and have them biospy you for Lyme and bartonella and send the biospies to MDL. You have to mail them yourself and get the kit in advance from the lab. Hope your scan goes well.
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5dana8
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Thanks again Wild Condor and Tjtighe
for the suggestions.
I do drink peppermint tea combo with chamaille and a slice of ginger in it. Sometimes feel a little better while drinking it.
Wondered what is the lab MDL stand for? Its good to hear they can test for lyme and Bart.
Didn't want to go to a GI duck. Because in the past they have scoped me - not found much - and sent me home with antacids,carafate and promethazine,which I have already tryed.
But I called today and made an appointment with a GI for june 1st. Another opinion would be good. I am pretty desperate. And also want to avoid surgury and the risk of further relaspe at this point.
Lyme ED
thanks also for your ideas I did 6 months IV already with the pic line. And 2 years orals. Don't want to go the IV route again. And the injectable abx meds I am Allergic to ect...
Thanks again you guys for being so supportive
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Aniek
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MDL stands for Medical Diagnostic Labs. They are in NJ and are covered by some insurance.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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5dana8
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posted
Thanks Aniek
For listing the name of the lab that have tests for lyme & bart.
I googled it and called for a test kit to take with me in June, if my GI will scope me.
I appreciate it very much take care dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Will try to talk to you over weekend.
Posts: 719 | From Delaware | Registered: Jan 2006
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5dana8
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Hey guys
I got the results of my GB tests. The ultra sound showed no stones .
The HIDA came back abnormal . I asked my doc to send me a copy in the mail. They mentioned 25% slugging. This doesn't sound so bad. But they want me to have it out because they say it is diseased.
I am keeping my appointment with my GI doc on June 1st. No way to I want to rush off into surgury. As I am afraid that could touch off another relapse like 3 years ago did.
Does anyone know what the % of slugging means?
Thanks for all your support. I really appreciate it.
p.s. I don't have much pain just constant nausea and my liver function tests where normal.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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5dana8
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hey Humanbeing
I am so sorry to hear about your nausea. It is the worst . Not moving around alot does help.
Are you on meds right now? In the past my nausea was from my meds,a herx,and three times from an upper GI yeast infection. But lately I have read it can be caused by lyme & their evil co's too. But now,throw in a bad GB test and I don't know what think.
I hope you can find something to help with your nausea. Lately the only thing that is helping is when I break down and take a pomethazine. It knocks me out though.
And digestive enzymes do help sometimes... But you have to be careful with taking the enzymes if you suspect any gastritis going on. The enzymes have inflamed my gastitis in the past.
Been doing the carafate and teas but not much relief. But, in the past, these last two have helped with my nausea. Specially the carafate and having some food down there. Tricky timeing the carafate with the meds though.
Feel better soon dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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AZURE WISH
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Sorry it took me so long to write again.
Yes there is treatment for gastroparesis
there is a med called reglean (sp?) and if that doesn't fix it all the way then their is a deit.
I just thought I would tell you that I had my gullbladder out and it did not make my lyme worse.
I also don't have to restrict my diet due to the lack of a gullbladder. (Although my diet never has been real high in fat anyway)
Also I wanted to make sure you knew that sometimes when patients have their gullbladder removed...
A little tube like structure that is connected to the gullbladder is left in ( called the sphinctor (sp?) of odi.
Sometimes this spasms and can cause pain.
I wasn't told about this risk. I am not sure how many people it happens to though.
The surgery itself isn't that bad though.... if you get it done laproscopicly (sp?)
The thing that hurts the most is the air they put in you. And I was swollen for a little while.
If you want to know anything from my expereince Having my gullbladder removed just pm me.
I would interpret the 25% as being 25% functional. That's not a very good percentage.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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AZURE WISH
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Hi
Thank you for the link.
Yes the reglean helps... the gastroparisis used to be worse and then I had to follow a diet also. Now I just use the medcine and the only thing I can't eat is nuts (unless its just a few).
I think the lyme has slowed my stomach digestion and my intenstines although I was on a strong pain med which slows the gi system even more ..
so I think that the pain meds exacerbated an existing problem.
since I went off those pain meds it has slowly been getting better.
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