Nal
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6801
posted
Ok, I have to throw this out here to get your guy's thoughts on this.
My dad and I were talking this morning. He met a lady at physical therapy last week who said her and her kids have very bad neuological problems due to her husband being exposed to agent orange in Vietnam.
Her husband is gone (no idea what he died from) but my dad said a lot of her symptoms sound very familiar to mine.
Yes, my dad was in Vietnam and did get exposed to it. He is healthy but we all know that doesn't always mean anything. My mother got preggo with me after he returned. Co-incidentally my mother developed breast cancer right after I was born and has had a whole host of health problems until her death in 1991 of lung cancer.
My brother is healthy but he is also 14 years older than I am.
Just curious. I know I have Lyme (or so the dr's keep telling me) but this just got my brain a thinking.
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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My dad's dad was used in some type of experiments with a chemical similar to agent orange during World War II.
My dad really went off the "deep end" years ago, leaving his family and living out in the wilds with lots of dogs. He never seemed grounded in reality and I use to wonder if that experiment on his dad had anything to do with him going nuts.
He was so normal when we were young growing up. I do remember asking him about his dad's experimental chemical and it was done with their permission he said. Also, my grandfather died when I was 2 so he wasn't very old.
Very interesting. My dad was in Vietnam and did 2 tours there...that makes me wonder. My parents appear to be extremely health but who really knows.
Posts: 738 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2004
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cactus
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7347
posted
I've wondered about this, too.
If there's a connection between auto-immune disorders and children of vets (among other issues) - could we have less effective immune systems and be easy targets for the spirochetes?
Many people in the fibro, endometriosis, and MS communities feel strongly that there's a connection, at least in private conversation!
I've also read that some military dogs in Vietnam had to be put down due to erlichia (oops, may have been babesia, my brain is backwards today).
I keep wondering if long-term infection could be the cause of some of the documented problems many vets have now.
Maybe there's an informed vet on the board who can better answer this one?
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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Nal
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Member # 6801
posted
Does anyone know if there is a way to test for Agent Orange exposure?
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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Nal
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Gulf War vets think they have mycoplasm due to this exposure.
What we are talking about is DNA damage. This is what diseases, oxidative stress, and normal aging IS...things damage the mitochondia "powerhouses" of our cells = DNA damage.
I have a close friend who was just dx'd with multiple myeloma. This is bone cancer. The cells are making too many particular white blood cells (plasma cells) crowding out the RBCs = anemia. In some respects this is the "flip" of lyme. She is overproducing the viral fighters, not the bacterial fighters (immunoglobulins).
Since her mom died of this...and her brother (2 years older) now has this too...there maybe a genetic link...a recessive gene that became active. This form of cancer is also linked to celiac disease (gluten intolerance - constant exposure to the antigens in gluten...an allergy of sorts) as well as liver cirrhosis due to pineal (here is the melatonin connection)deficiency. There is a progesterone-estrogen link also. An imbalance. In lyme, it looks like progesterone might help. For her, estrogen might help.
When we gals are pregnant, progesterone rises compared to estrogen. This upregulates B lympocytes and suppresses T. This is to prevent us from "attacking" the fetus.
Amazing, huh?
This form of cancer can also be TRIGGERED by EBV and mycoplasm pneumonia...which ARE linked to the "cholesterol/isoprenoid pathway". The Epstein Barr virus (mono) looks to stay with us and can re-emerge as we age...not unlike chiken pox -> shingles.
This is an imbalance of many things (immunoglobulins, hormones, etc)...caused by pathogens OR by exposure to very toxic things.
Can we ever rid these from our bodies? I believe it is possible, but takes a full-court press.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Nal
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Thanks for the articles-very interesting. Scarey though.
It was just another bug put into my head from my dad when we talked about it the other day. i feel its worth exploring.
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
OK Nal,
Yes. Agent Orange exposure can indeed cause genetic problems in children.
Anyone serving in the war theatre durring specific times are PRE-SUPPOSED as being exposed to agent orange.
Peripheral neuropathy is definitely one of the symptoms. This has been related to diabetesII caused by Agent Orange exposure. There is supposed to be a blood test for it but I never found out about this test and I doubt it exists.
Unles they're talking about a glucose test.
If you or your dad persue this avenue with the VA DO NOT mention you have a diagnosis of lyme disease.
After being told at a VA in Cleve about going with diabetesII I did'nt listen and sent in my request for diability to the govt.
They sent it back stating ALL my symptoms were due to lyme disease. BUT...the VA in Cleve and subsequently the VA in Florida told me I DID'NT HAVE lyme disease.
I think the VA hospitals were trying to tell me something and I was too stupid to understand. Ya know like call it this and you'll get help...
Call it something else and you won't...
Good luck zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Marnie:
I have a close friend who was just dx'd with multiple myeloma. This is bone cancer . The cells are making too many particular white blood cells (plasma cells) crowding out the RBCs = anemia. In some respects this is the "flip" of lyme. She is overproducing the viral fighters, not the bacterial fighters (immunoglobulins).
Since her mom died of this...and her brother (2 years older) now has this too...there maybe a genetic link...a recessive gene that became active.
This form of cancer is also linked to celiac disease (gluten intolerance - constant exposure to the antigens in gluten...an allergy of sorts) as well as liver cirrhosis due to pineal (here is the melatonin connection)deficiency .
This form of cancer can also be TRIGGERED by EBV and mycoplasm pneumonia...which ARE linked to the "cholesterol/isoprenoid pathway ". The Epstein Barr virus (mono) looks to stay with us and can re-emerge as we age...not unlike chiken pox -> shingles.
This is an imbalance of many things (immunoglobulins, hormones, etc)...caused by pathogens OR by exposure to very toxic things.
Can we ever rid these from our bodies? I believe it is possible, but takes a full-court press.
Marnie, how was your friend tested for this to determne it was cancer she had?
My left hip joint/crease is extremely painful; I've had xras/cat scan, etc. done ... degenerative arthritis.
The pain just takes my breath away where I can't get up, like a severe charlie horse that won't go away, etc.
Due to the pain, in my mind, I have wondered if I have BONE CANCER? So again, how was your friend tested? I get no relief for my pain from anything ... any help/guidance would be appreciated Marnie. Thank you. Bettyg
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Marnie
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posted
CAT scans..and a LOT of blood work led to her dx. ( B lymphocyte excess). She is anemic, has HIGH blood calcium (bones have holes!), etc.
Note: anemia can be the result of low PFK levels also...this happens to our astronauts who return from space with low PFK levels and anemia due to "oxidative stress" (Skylab research). So...not only is Bb taking our PFK (rate limiting enzyme for glycolysis..Bb is "PFK dependent"), but it looks like excess free radicals also might lower this enzyme.
"Estrogen often overshadows the importance of progesterone in treating and preventing osteoporosis.
Although estrogen regulates osteoclasts, specialized bone cells that remove dead portions of demineralized bone, progesterone influences the bone-forming cells, called osteoblasts, that use calcium, magnesium, and phosphorous from the blood to replace bone mass."
Now...too much Ca in relation to the other nutrients needed for healthy bones = brittle bones. They are too hard. Break easily. Imagine heating (depleting minerals) that wishbone to dry it out after Thanksgiving dinner so that we can easily break it to make a wish. Babies bones are soft...much higher % of Mg in them. They need calcium to harden the bones so they can stand and walk. It's all about percentages of the nutrients.
Calcium is coming out of the bones. We have to stop the bone destruction AND AT THE SAME TIME, "encourage" bone rebuilding.
My friend felt better ON estrogen...4 years ago. Estrogen needs calcium. When estrogen is too low *in relationship to* progesterone...up go the B lymphocytes. It's about balance. We need both at different times in our lives for different reasons. We also need testosterone. Both men and women have all of these...just in different amts. There is a reason WHY estrogen levels drop as we age...as well as growth hormone.
IMO...this is PROTECTIVE, NATURAL. It is supposed to happen.
The "bisphosphates" class of drugs to help osteoporosis are used, but...we don't have them just "right" yet. Foxamax INCREASES TNF alpha and CRP (C reactive protein)...not exactly "heart friendly".
Valletta used MgPyrophosphate. Pyrophosphate is a bisphosphate. Enough Mg and phosphorus (and sub B6) and Ca returns "home"??? Also fights "autoimmune" diseases. WOW.
Her brother (2 years older) has multiple myeloma right now too.
They BOTH have really serious constipation problems (first symptom) which sorta makes me think gluten intolerance...recessive gene that activated - possibly since she said she never had pneumonia or EBV (but who's to say other viruses can do the same?).
The body is reacting to gluten as a foreign invader...an allergen...triggering this allergic response...too much so.
I'm trying hard to get her to to at least TRY a gluten free diet for a month (it will take that long to decrease the B lymphocytes) which look to be triggered because of the allergic response to gluten.
If I am reading this right (trying to learn complicated stuff on my own!), it looks like her Th2 pathway is "upregulated" while in lyme, the Th1 pathway is upregulated.
We're supposed to be able to go back and forth between these pathways. One will "downregulate" or "upregulate" the other.
Okay...let me give you an example. Put thick "oily" vitamin E on your finger. To "cut it"...we can use another oil...baby oil.
The various proteins, the minerals, all "compete", but they each have very specific jobs and can't REPLACE the functions of one another entirely. They can "help" in a jam.
Can we DEVELOP allergies? Oh yea. My son became calcium intolerant (hives) when his Mg level was too low. He can now eat/drink Ca foods, but only when we restored his Mg level to an "acceptable" level (still rebuilding). Mg is a natural "anti-histamine"...which brings me to why do histadine and tryphophan have identical molecular formulas? Histadine converts to histamine.
Been doing a ton of research the past few days. Looks like melatonin for lyme patients is upregulated for very protective reasons. This is why sunlight...the entire spectrum..."aggravates" this.
Sunlight shuts down melatonin production. It converts melatonin to serotonin. That light must destroy/inactivate enzymes that we need to convert serotonin -> melatonin. Melatonin needs to convert back to serotonin and we need acetylcholine to "wake us up"...get going.
They are thinking about putting blue lights (a component of sunlight) in offices to keep people awake....no more sleeping on the job. Hum...
Cancer can be triggered by lots of things...toxic exposure, pathogens, etc. This is DNA damage.
Too many free radicals. The antioxidants are critical to preventing and halting this DNA damage. Melatonin is a really powerful antioxidant. I suspect SOD by Solar Ray (antioxidant enzymes) would be really helpful...along with vitamin E esp. I wish I knew how to recommend vitamin A to protect the eyes. Too much of this acid is harmful (!), but it looks to "downregulate" another acid...TNF alpha which can harm the eyes.
This is really tricky since UV light...can actually trigger the free radicals!
It looks like those "blue-blocker" sunglasses might keep melatonin levels up. Things sure do look "clearer" when you look thru them! However, to make enough melatonin normally, we need some full spectrum light exposure. No sunlight = SAD. Melatonin isn't converting to serotonin. Too little serotonin = depressed.
If a brief exposure to UV light causes Mg to be released and this is then used to make the 2 enzymes that are needed to convert serotonin back to melatonin so we can fall asleep at night (NREM sleep)...
Our NK cells...actually "squirt" precancerous cells with a free radical! Very simplified.
But too many free radicals can damage HEALTHY cells. Breaks the hydrogen DNA bonds.
Okay...what to do? We gotta stop excess cholesterol formation in the liver. Heal the liver ('cause it should (!) be able to help...a LOT of Mg-ATP stored there...along with B6) via replacing the choline and phosphorous so we don't end up with a "fatty liver" and up the vit E to protect it from the ongoing ethanol- comes from Bb fermenting sugar. Now by lowering cholesterol...Bb won't have a cell wall. Then use osmotic pressure or ultrasound to finish it off.
This is what our own antibodies/antibotics are supposed to do. Damage the cell walls or prevent their formation in the first place and then...well I think Mother Nature might help us out (barometric pressure changes)...but I can't prove it.
It looks like Bb might be using our Zn and calcium to make ITS DNA.
We gotta keep that calcium where it is supposed to be...in the bones. Downregulate it with its "opposition"...Mg.
Bones need Ca, Mg, P, boron and vitamin D. If just ONE of those is lacking = osteoporosis. With lyme, it appears ultimately, Ca comes out of the bones. We know Bb is using phosphorous, we know Mg drops (for protective reasons)...and even Ca is coming out of the bones for protective reasons (pH).
As long as Mg levels remain low...
Mg down, Ca up, TNF alpha up, angiogentensin II up...
Go back to the beginning....no calcium channel blockers (too specific for various cells), no TNF alpha blockers...
Get Mg levels back up to halt this.
'Taint easy!
The bone pain does not nec. mean you have bone cancer, but may indicate calcium is leaving your bones. And this hurts.
Calcium is our most abundant mineral. The body maybe calling for this mineral to balance the pH, since this disease is so "toxic producing".
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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bettyg
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posted
Marnie, thank you so much for the time you spent typing up your comments. I'll print it off later am when hubby is out of bed to digest. God bless you Marnie for your expertise & sharing your thoughts/ideas.
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