johnnyb
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posted
It's so funny that every time you find some positive info on vitamins or other natural (non-patentable) substance out there, you will inevitably find other info disputing.
Take vitamin C. Most animals except us and some other "apes" can produce the stuff in their bodies- whereas we have to get it from diet. Under stress or infection, they will produce very large quantities.
Keeping this in mind, you would assume the nutrient to be beneficial, as is described in these links:
I am always suspicious of big pharma and their hired gun (the fda) trying to discredit supplements and push drugs, because there is profit to be made.
Would like opinions on this. Anyone doing large vitamin C doses, or have other data you'd like to cite? Any negative experiences or data? Feel free to disagree....
Thanks,
- JB
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johnnyb
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One Correction: the negative article is specifically referring to supplemental vitamin C, as opposed to dietary vitamin C.
They do agree that dietary vitamin C is good.
So, let's keep the discussion on supplements.
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quote:Originally posted by johnnyb: I am always suspicious of big pharma and their hired gun (the fda) trying to discredit supplements and push drugs, because there is profit to be made.
Absolutely correct!! That is the whole reason they are bashing it. They are also bashing Vitamin E and I don't believe that garbage either!
Unfortunately, I can't take very much Vit C due to my Interstitial Cystitis. It also causes too much acid in my stomach. I think I do consume some, hopefully enough.
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luvs2ride
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posted
Hello,
I am with you guys on the motivation behind Big Pharma and the Govt since I believe the pharmacutical companies pad the politicians pockets.
My doctor has me taking 3000 mg of powdered Vit C daily to reduce herxing and inflamation in my joints.
I read one doctor's experience that he could give massive doses Vit C to sick patients and they tolerated it well (as I am) but healthy people could only tolerate small amounts of supplemental Vit C without inducing diarrhea.
Interesting huh?
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
the guy who found the vitamin and won the nobel prize for it said specifically not to use the drug form, ascorbic acid. nowadays the drug form is almost all genetically modified petrochemical grown and laden corn. they extract it from the corn, like high fructose corn syrup and many other sugars because it is incredibly cheap. it is also vastly inferior, but they sell it because people dont know this. i think the drug vitamin c is highly acidic, and toxic. ive also seen claims by doctors that over 400mg will cause free radical damage, and can also contribute to cancer. im pretty sure that genetically modified petrochemical "food" does many of these same damaging things inside the body on its own.
food form vitamins are completely natural and simply a collection of foods with the enzymes, cofactors, and life force intact. i have even recently found a source of natural vitamin c that is priced competitively with the ascorbic acid. the source of the vitamin c is rose hips. http://www.cosmicvitamins.com/Main/product.asp?ProdCode=1072&CatID=IVF
im on the salt and c protocol, at 24 grams. i think its important to do natural vitamin c and sea / mineral salt. i feel like it has helped me a a lot.
[ 06. July 2006, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: break the chains ]
Posts: 245 | From connecticut, the lyme state | Registered: May 2004
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This site claims that synthetic vitamin C (regular ascorbic acid) is no good for you and you should take their powdered cherry natural form. http://www.healthforce.com/vitamin-c.htm I guess natural forms make sense, but then again, the other article says that when it gets created in the body, it's the ascorbic acid form, so what's the difference?
Which makes me think "Hey why can't I just go get a bunch of fruits and such and make my own breakfast vitamin C smoothie?" Anybody trying that? What about rose hips? I don't know much here. Is it feasible if you had roses in your garden to harvest the rose hips and incorporate them into a smoothie like the manufactureres above do? Would this possibly enable people who have problems taking high doses of "regular" vitamin c to get more into their system?
So many questions....
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johnnyb
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posted
And then again, derrrrr.....
I could just drink more OJ. Maybe I am thinking too much.
Posts: 1197 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Oj is not good, high sugar, low vitamin c, and its cooked. so most of its nutrition is destroyed. although you could squeeze your own, but still the C is lower than other citrus. i have looked into doing this with citrus, but the produce i would need is too much for my high dose. rose hips look like they might be a good way to go. right now i am taking vit c from garden of life, living vitamin c. this has 3 different berries that are very high in vitamin c. im going to switch to the other ones i linked though because they are cheaper and stronger. the liver is what produces bile, which is highly alkalizing. this would probably make the vitamin c alkalizing overall.
Recall how hydrogen peroxide is poured on wounds to kill germs. Well now researchers clearly show high-dose vitamin C, when administered intravenously, can increase hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) levels within cancer cells and kills them. I.V. vitamin C was also demonstrated to kill germs and may be an effective therapy for infectious disease.
With a growing body of evidence mounting, National Institutes of Health (NIH) researchers conceded today that intravenous vitamin C may be an effective treatment for cancer. Last year the same researchers reported a similar study but the news media failed to publish it.
The latest study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, confirms the work of Nobel-Prize winner Dr. Linus Pauling who conducted cancer research in the 1970s with vitamin C. Dr. Pauling's studies were discredited at the time by poorly conducted research studies at the Mayo Clinic.
Unlike cancer drugs, I.V. vitamin C selectively killed cancer cells, but not healthy cells, and showed no toxicity. The ability of intravenous vitamin C to kill lymphoma cells was remarkable almost 100% at easily achievable blood serum concentrations.
For inexplicable reasons, NIH researchers continue to maintain high-dose oral vitamin C can produce a limited increase in serum vitamin C concentrations. However, their earlier study published in 2004 clearly showed oral-dose vitamin C can achieve three times greater blood concentration than previously thought possible, a fact which negates the current Recommended Dietary Allowance for vitamin C. [Annals Internal Medicine 140:5337, 2004] NIH researchers refuse to issue a retraction of their earlier flawed research which mistakenly claimed humans cannot benefit from high-dose oral vitamin C supplements.
The NIH also offered no explanation why it has taken 35 years to confirm the work of Dr. Linus Pauling.
Posts: 245 | From connecticut, the lyme state | Registered: May 2004
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northstar
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Member # 7911
posted
I have a similar problem to LT, in that ascorbic acid is too much for me, but my sensitivey is due to acid stomach. .
There are esterified/buffered C (one called Ester-C) supplements, but then I read that was just hype, and it converted to ascorbic acid in the stomach, i.e. it was a marketing ploy.
Also, regular ascorbic acid tested weak with kinesiology. ( I test with eyes closed to eliminate any mental input. )
But I tested ok with the ascorbyl palmitate, which is C-ester (Source Naturals). It is a lipid soluble C form, while the others are water soluble (according to what I read). I hoped it would help with the brain (Fat Brain?) but I think that is wishful thinking according to this:
The Biofavonids from fruits can be purchased separately, without the Vit. C, also.
But I am not taking therapeutic mega-doses since I try to incorpate many kinds of anti-oxidants, supplementing with full specturm E, R-lipoic, and including dried goji berries (which are kind of acidic, though, but I only eat a about 1/4 c.)
The goji is reputed to have much more Vit C than oranges, but then I read that by the time it is dried, it is about comparable in C to oranges. But it also has more beta-carotene (another anti-oxidant) than carrots, and has polysaccharides, mystery components, etc.
Then I checked on highest Vit C, and highest anti-oxidant levels of different fruits, and try to incorporate those.
papaya, red bell peppers (twice as much as oranges), broccoli, brussels sprouts, strawberries, oranges, cantaloupes, kiwi, cauliflower, parsley, lemon juice, kale.
Northstar
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johnnyb
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I think the other ones you linked contain rose hips, but also contain regular (synthetic) vitamin c as the primary ingredient.
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johnnyb
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That response was for break the chains...
quote:Originally posted by johnnyb: I think the other ones you linked contain rose hips, but also contain regular (synthetic) vitamin c as the primary ingredient.
posted
thanks johnny. i hadnt really looked into that supplement yet. it looks like you may well be correct. maybe i should look into rose hips and making my own c supplement.
right now im taking the living vitamin c, its good stuff.
i used to take synergy co radiance c. the problem with this stuff is that is very weak. i dont even think a whole bottle of powder would go very far with me. probably would need a few a day. its not a good way to do mega dose c.
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Vitamin C May Be A Life-Saver Mega-doses Can Counter Avian Flu, Hepatitis & Herpes, And Control Advance Of AIDS By Jane Feinmann The Independent - UK 4-14-5 http://www.rense.com/general64/co.htm
Imagine that a deadly virus is sweeping the world, killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of children. Nothing seems able to stop it - until a doctor stands up at the American Medical Association and reports on 60 cases involving severely infected children, all of whom have been cured. Yet his work, subsequently reported in a peer-review journal, is ignored, leaving the virus to wreak havoc for decades.
This isn't a docudrama about some futuristic plague - it's a true story about what happened in June 1949 when polio was at its peak. Dr Frederick Klenner, a clinical researcher from Reidsville, North Carolina, reported that a massive intravenous dose of Vitamin C - up to 20,000mg daily for three days (today's recommended daily allowance is 60mg) - had cured 60 of his patients. The findings were published in a medical journal, yet there was virtually no interest. Apart from a couple of minor trials, no attempt was made to find out if they had any scientific substance.
Relating this curious incident in a new book, Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases & Toxins: Curing the Incurable, Dr Thomas Levy, a US cardiologist, admits to being gripped by a range of emotions when he came across Klenner's work and other studies that replicated it. "To know that polio had been easily cured yet so many people continued to die, or survived to be permanently crippled by it, was difficult to accept."
Levy argues that the medical profession has routinely ignored research showing that high doses of Vitamin C can combat bacteria, toxins and severe viral infections including avian flu, SARS, hepatitis and herpes. And this is not a case of doctors sniffing at anecdotal evidence from a handful of enthusiasts. "Vitamin C is possibly the best-researched substance in the world. There are more than 24,000 papers and articles on the authoritative clinical website, Medline. Yet virtually the all the evidence has been dismissed." Levy even claims that Aids can be controlled if a high enough dosage of Vitamin C is maintained.
This is not the first time doctors have had their cages rattled over the benefits of Vitamin C. The controversy has been simmering since 1753, when just a couple of sucks of a lime were shown to prevent scurvy. In the 1950s the chemist Linus Pauling, a double Nobel prize-winner, promoted the use of mega-doses of Vitamin C, but his research was rubbished by clinicians.
Recently, the anti-Vitamin C sentiment has grown. It has been blamed for causing the formation of kidney stones, and a study published in the journal Science in 2001 found that even 200mg doses of Vitamin C "facilitated the production of DNA-damaging agents associated with a variety of cancers". This finding was widely interpreted as proving that Vitamin C causes cancer.
Britain's Food Standards Agency recommends taking a maximum of 1,000mg of Vitamin C a day. But a directive going through the European Parliament aims to reduce this to less than 100mg in an attempt to harmonise dosages across the Continent. Despite being dubbed "illegal" by the advocate general of the European Court of Justice last week, the directive could still be passed.
The controversy has not put off consumers, many of whom take Vitamin C to ward off colds. The 1,000 mg capsule is the most popular single vitamin in Britain, with the 500mg version second.
Some people argue that we can get sufficient Vitamin C from a diet rich in fruit and vegetables, but Levy disagrees. The problem, he says, is that a genetic design fault makes us unable to synthesise our own Vitamin C. Levy claims that while recommended daily allowances of 60mg are enough to prevent the development of scurvy in otherwise healthy people, much higher levels are required to maintain health when an infection strikes. At such times, the body begins to "metabolise unusually large amounts of vitamin C, keeping stores so depleted that the recommended daily allowance will not even prevent many of the symptoms of scurvy from developing".
Levy claims that the reason why most animals stay healthy throughout their lives, while humans spend years coping with one or more chronic diseases, is that animals make their own Vitamin C. The wild goat, for instance, makes around 13,000mg a day, rising to 100,000mg when faced with life-threatening infectious or toxic stress, according to a 1961 study published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences.
So, is Levy right? Should everyone be taking mega-doses every day and having intravenous infusions when they fall ill? Possibly.
Dr Rodney Adeniyi-Jones regularly gives 20,000mg doses to people with arterial disease and as part of a flu treatment protocol, describing its effects as "beneficial... but not miraculous". And Professor George Lewith of the Centre for Complementary and Integrated Medicine says that while Vitamin C is not a panacea, it does have clinical benefits depending on the dosage. "There may be doses that are therapeutic, while another dose may be damaging for the same condition. It is not a dose-response curve as with pharmaceuticals, and we need to be cautious until this is better understood."
But he also warns that: "Many of the [Vitamin C] trials have been badly done and what evidence exists is mixed. Both those in favour and against high doses frequently misinterpret the data."
Levy may well be seen to have an axe to grind, yet the evidence seems to support his view that apart from causing diarrhoea, mega-doses of Vitamin C are not toxic. He says that a series of studies published in leading journals have shown that, far from causing cancer, Vitamin C is a safe supplement for chronic cancer patients. Further large studies suggest that supplements do not put a normal person at greater risk of developing kidney stones.
According to Levy, the problem is not that people might take too much, but that they won't take enough - and thus won't get the desired effects. "There's a popular medical view that taking Vitamin C just makes expensive urine. Some of it is lost in urine, but the more you consume, the more stays in your body."
With a new book on the way claiming that Vitamin C deficiency is also a primary cause of cardiovascular disease, Levy cannot be accused of underselling his case. Nor can he overcome the fact that proper clinical trials are still desperately needed. Considering its overall safety, there appears to be no good reason why anyone with a chronic or acute health problem should not try, at the very least, a couple of week's regime of two or three 1,000mg tablets of Vitamin C a day.
Need to Know: So how much should you take?
* For a cold
Three 1,000mg doses a day, according to the campaign group Consumers for Health Choice.
* For flu
Although it's more serious, the viral load is similar, according to research, and taking up to 20,000mg a day could be beneficial.
* For shingles
Research has shown that this painful post-viral condition can be pretty well cured by an injection of 3,000mg of vitamin C. Taking four 1,000mg tablets orally for three days could be worthwhile as well.
* For a hangover
Taking 1,000mg daily in the week before a booze-up reduces stress on the liver. If you're drunk and want to look sober, a large dose of vitamin C will prevent drunken behaviour, according to a 1986 study, "Alcohol and Alcoholism".
* To maintain your health
A 1,000mg daily dose is regarded as safe by the Food Standards Agency, and adequate to keep sufficient vitamin C in the plasma and tissues. "We believe this is absolutely safe and definitely beneficial to people's health," says Sue Croft of Consumers for Health Choice.
�2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.
Posts: 245 | From connecticut, the lyme state | Registered: May 2004
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I just bought a natural vitamin C called alma-C. Its made by a Co. called himalayausa.com and they aparently sell herbs.It cost $12.00 for 60 500mg veg caps so hopefuly its the real deal. Alan
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