dmc
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5102
posted
Marnie, I do learn from your posts, but wow, this one is waaaaayyyy over my head. Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Hey guys...keep reading... Bb is mentioned repeatedly...when you get to the website...use your edit button up top to search "borrelia burgdorferi".
This points to exactly WHY this disease is chronic!
This is one smart researcher (Marie)! Germany is dk in the email addy for her, I think...anyone know?
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
What she linked says:
"It appears, however, that also several bacterial or parasitic intracellular infections
*ACTIVATE NF-kB pathway*
like described above for the viral infections."
And...
"When trying to combat intracellular infections, one cytokine of major importance is TNF, which induces apoptosis - programmed cell death -, which can be
*inhibited by activation of NF-kB."*
Bb activates NF-kB...to stop cell death.
Up goes TNF alpha to try to destroy the infected cells.
But what else INactivates NF-kB?
"This study identified a novel and efficient pathway where NO rapidly inactivated NF-kB activity by inducing Tyr-nitration on p65."
NO is nitric oxide!
Back to melatonin...
Melatonin works by causing the release of bicarbonates in the intestines...to make the system more alkaline.
It is believed the indole part of the structure of melatonin is the part responsible. If you look at the molecular structure of it..you will see hydrogen linked to...NITROGEN as H=N...double bond.
Getting nitrogen back into the cells...to form NO or N2O2 or N2O3...looks to be really important to eliminating this infection.
Bb looks to be a "nitrogen-fixing" bacteria. Not enough nitrogen avail. for our cells to use to make NO/NO3 to destroy pathogens.
"Bicarbonates reduce nitrogen loss"
Now...about bicarbonates...since we can't take the amt. of melatonin to do this...
Bicarbonate attached to which mineral...
Would it work? Safer, slower?
Or
Doctors...find this -this website wouldn't let me link:
"Tyrosine nitration on p65: a novel mechanism to rapidly inactivate NF-kB"
Too much cell death/bacteria death too fast = your death. Can we knock out the pathogen without destroying the cells entirely?
We need EXPERT help with this! Because...
We believe this is the first study to directly show that TNF-alpha does not increase NO synthesis and release but
does downregulate eNOS mRNA in the ischemic and nonischemic isolated rat heart.
PMID: 14522499
Treatment with NO reduced mortality to 0%, significantly decreasing TNF-alpha P <0.001 and SOA P <0.01 levels, ICAM-1 expression, and NFkappaB levels P <0.05.
Once again...unable to post direct link. Find this:
Exogenous nitric oxide can control SIRS and downregulate NFkappaB. Lozano FS, Barros MB, Garc�a-Criado FJ, Gomez-Alonso A
Reducing TNF alpha significantly without restoring Mg levels might not be a good idea. Humira side effect is cancer.
Keep in mind...the Romanian CANCER doctors cured the lyme patients via IV Mg - I don't know the form...Mg Sulfate/chloride - without killing their patients, but this was in a HOSPITAL SETTING where blood pH levels can be closely monitored and countered, if needed.
Print out the website to share with your LLMDs.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
this is over my head too.
how do we get Nitrogen back into our bodies. sigh.
thanks for researching.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
trueblue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7348
posted
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: Hey guys...keep reading... Bb is mentioned repeatedly...when you get to the website...use your edit button up top to search "borrelia burgdorferi".
This points to exactly WHY this disease is chronic!
This is one smart researcher (Marie)! Germany is dk in the email addy for her, I think...anyone know?
Marnie ~ it looks like .dk "might" be Denmark.
Most of this is going way over my head (ha, like that's a surprise). I'll try again but it's awfully overwhelming, it's way out of my league. I'll try and read some more of it. Thanks.
(Thank you for telling me how to use the edit button, much appreciated!)
-------------------- more light, more love more truth and more innovation Posts: 3783 | From somewhere other than here | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
Have not read the website yet, but I already have a question. Actually have seen you reference this many times before.
The one time hubby had TNF tested it was normal. Don't know how many others have normal TNF, but unless the great majority of bb patients have elevated TNF your whole theory is based on an incorrect assumption.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
mlkeen
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1260
posted
This is what I get-
We need nitrogen, bicarbinates reduce nitrogen loss. We need to keep our bodies more alkaline, mg does this.
The question posed is how to get more nitrogen in?
Am I close?
Posts: 1572 | From Pa | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Mel...you're catching on.
Bea..abx. downregulate TNF alpha.
Very simply stated: 2 immune pathways.
Th1 fights bacteria
Th2 fights viruses
We are supposed to be able to go back and forth between these 2 pathways.
Sometimes...the body has to decide...which is the greatest threat...the bacteria or the virus (because both might be present at the same time). So usually one pathway is dominate.
EBV (epstein barr virus = "mono") and Hep C both also follow the cholesterol pathway. If co-infected or "re-activated", this would trigger the Th2 pathway.
Okay...let's throw something else in for giggles:
Biochem Pharmacol. 1994 Jan 20;47(2):359-64.
Hypocholesterolemic properties of plant indoles.
Inhibition of
acyl-CoA:cholesterol acyltransferase activity
and reduction of serum LDL/VLDL cholesterol levels by glucobrassicin derivatives.
Acyl-CoA:cholesterol acetyltransferase or ACAT...guess which pathogen contains that (ACAT)...
Gotta run and research an amino acid (in depth).
There is always another way...many paths to the same goal.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
Did check my records and hubby was actually doing IV Rocephin (his 1st antibiotic) when he had TNF tested. I guess we just wasted our money having that tested at that point in time and I may have been under a false impression that TNF was not an issue for him.
Guess I will just add TNF to the list of things I would like to have retested if we ever had an extra million dollars.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Another reason to consider heparin, it balances Th1/Th2.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I recently posted a question about how many people here had high TNF levels. My daughter does and since the doctors didn't know why it was elevated (non Lyme doctors), they tried steroids. When that didn't work, they tried Humira.
Edited to add that my daughter tested positive for RMSF and valley fever. We are still trying to determine if there is a Lyme connection since she has not recovered.
Posts: 40 | From Pasadena | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
The acids...they downregulate/control one another.
Good example...too much TNF alpha is harmful to the eyes, so the body uses vitamin A (another acid) to downregulate TNF alpha...to protect the eyes.
Too many acids...finding the RIGHT one is key.
Activating or INactivating a particular enzyme (acidic)...which one...that's the key. Say for example NFkB...
OR...
Providing MORE of the enzyme...as researchers did with SARS and mice. They figured out which enzyme that virus (which causes SARS) locks onto and actually gave the mice MORE of that enzyme...and the virus locked onto the EXCESS and the mice did not get SARS.
Unique approach.
Bb locks onto DNA...a protein strand. Weak hydrogen bond holds DNA together...Hydrogen like the rung part of a ladder.
Acidosis...too many hydrogens IN the cells. Too much Na in there too.
Need to make more healthy DNA...it's a protein...needs nitrogen...
DNA from RNA...RNA is unstable. This is where d-ribose, a glyconutrient, comes into play...
Sure gets complex!
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
mlkeen
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1260
posted
I just did a search" nitrogen and gut health" and came up with an abstract on some research on nitrogen fixating spirochetes in termite guts. It was deemed exciting. I don't know how it connects or if it does at all and couldn't link it, but will try agian.
I suppose if it were good bacteria we could try to add it to our gut?
I cut/pasted the abstract-
Microbiologists Find a New Source of Nitrogen Fixation Corkscrew bacteria in termite guts and natural waters help capture a key element National Science Foundation by Tom Garritano
Microbiologists have discovered that a type of bacteria found in termite guts and in fresh and salt water plays a major role in the process of nitrogen fixation. All organisms require the element to survive.
In the June 29 issue of the journal Science, a team led by National Science Foundation (NSF)-funded microbiologist John Breznak of Michigan State University (MSU) reports that spirochetes - spiral and wavy-shaped bacteria - are important providers of nitrogen in termites, whose ability to thrive despite a nitrogen-poor diet of plant matter had posed a decades-old puzzle.
Although nitrogen gas makes up 80 percent of the air we breathe, only certain microbes can capture and use it for growth - a process called nitrogen fixation. Once nitrogen gas becomes "fixed" by microbes, it enters the food chain and is ultimately used by plants and animals.
Breznak began studying the symbiosis between termites and their gut microbes almost 30 years ago, when he discovered that bacterial nitrogen fixation occurs within termites and could furnish up to 60 percent of the insects' nitrogen needs. But the particular microbes performing that fixation had been unclear. With colleagues at MSU and the California Institute of Technology, Breznak made an important breakthrough in 1999 by isolating spirochetes from termite guts and growing them in test tubes where they can now be examined in detail.
"The spirochetes not only contained the genes for nitrogen fixation," Breznak said, "they performed nitrogen fixation at rates consistent with those seen in living termites. This was very exciting, because nitrogen fixation had never been described before in these fascinating, widely distributed bacteria."
The researchers then examined other spirochetes and found that nitrogen fixation also occurs in free-living, aquatic spirochetes, implying that their impact is global. They also found genes for nitrogen fixation in spirochetes that inhabit the human mouth and the intestinal tract of cows, but those spirochetes did not perform nitrogen fixation - either because the genes no longer function that way or only do so under yet-unknown conditions.
Posts: 1572 | From Pa | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
johnnyb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7645
posted
Just saw an article in Alternatives newsletter which states that L-Arginine is an amino acid that boots NO production in the body, but the extra NO produced doesn't last long (ie. need for frequent doses).
Also, the author commented on a study that showed several people who recently had heart attacks died when receiving L-Arginine supplements.
His comments were that it is not a good idea to take L-Arginine after a heart attack, possibly because it may deplete other nutrients (Mg? just a guess of mine) and cause an imbalance. So, always good to keep up on other nutrients if trying L-Arginine supplementation.
Plus there were comments on how the extra NO produced by L-Arginine might help us fight infections (maybe lyme?)
Agreed that there is SO much conflicting data out there.
- JB
Posts: 1197 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Just another thought in regards to L-Arginine is that if you are also dealing with Mycoplasma, they feed on Arginine, one of their numero uno food sources.
So it would have to be determined if the positive would outwiegh the negative there, depending on what your poison is.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[confused]](graemlins/confused.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic