posted
Is Lyme disease always poly microbial? - The jigsaw hypothesis
David C. Owen, a,
aUniversity of Wales, College of Medicine, Accident and Emergency, Heath Park, Cardiff United Kingdom, Cardiff, United Kingdom
Received 22 March 2006; accepted 30 March 2006. Available online 30 June 2006.
Summary Lyme disease is considered to be caused by Borrelia species of bacteria but slowly evidence is accumulating which suggests that Lyme disease is a far more complex condition than Borreliosis alone. This hypothesis suggests that it may be more appropriate to regard Lyme disease as a tick borne disease complex. Over recent years numerous different microbes have been found in ticks which are known to be zoonotic and can coinfect the human host. The hypothesis suggests that multiple coinfections are invariably present in the clinical syndromes associated with Lyme disease and it is suggested that these act synergistically in complex ways. It may be that patterns of coinfection and host factors are the main determinants of the variable clinical features of Lyme disease rather than Borrelia types. An analogy with a jigsaw puzzle is presented with pieces representing Borreliae, coinfections and host factors. It is suggested that many pieces of the puzzle are missing and our knowledge of how the pieces fit together is rudimentary. It is hoped that the hypothesis will help our understanding of this complex, enigmatic condition.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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SForsgren
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posted
What comes to mind is....duh...
If that is news to anyone here, that is unfortunate. I agree 100%
Heavy Metals Parasites Fungus Virus Genetics Detox capabilities Hypercoagulation, etc.
If anyone is treating just Borrelia, I would argue that the chances of getting well are somewhere between slim and none....
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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lymeHerx001
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This is what my LLMD said to me too!
He said that with me it was pleomorphic?
Thats means that they go between fungus bacteria and virus.
Thats why it took me 2 years to herx terrible from doxy. First time I took it for 2 months and NOTHING!
Dont get it.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Thanks LymeScience for posting this. While many on this site, are aware of this issue, it needs to be reinforced in the medical journals for non LLMD's to get the real picture.
If it is not in the medical literature then it is not real, seems to be the rationale for many docs who follow the IDSA line of thought.
The phrase "multiple coinfections are invariably present..." would have a hard time getting into print in an American medical journal in my opinion.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Dave6002
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posted
I had this hypothesis days ago and seemed nobody agree on.
This is why Lyme is so hard to treat.
We need to think that Lyme is caused by an organism that is composed of Bbs, Babs, Bart.
It's a completely new organism that has the features of eukaryotes and prokaryotes.
That's why most abx that kill bacteria instantly cannot kill this organism.
Likewise, anti-malaria cannot hurt it fatally.
It's a new organism that's unknown to human.
We need develop new treatment otherwise human being will be in jeopardy.
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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david1097
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posted
Consider this...
Maybe lyme is not so bad alone but rather it is a catalyst for other infections due to its apparent ability fo suppress the immume system.
It is possible that other normally asymtomatic infections are made worse by Lyme and in fact compete with lyme in terms of nutrients required for the organism to grow. Other faster growing infections would be able to overrun lyme and should in thoery cause lyme to be a minor factor in the illness.
This concept of competing infetious process is well known and has been the topic of many studies in epidemiology.
If this was the case, this would explain alot..
LIKE:
Why a lot of sick people only have minor "classical" lyme symptoms (joint problems)
Why lyme tests are often negative yet the person responds to treatment
Why a very low lyme bacteria load can cause such major symtoms (ie after extensive treatment)
Why lyme becomes so hard to treat (the competative bacteria process is known to "harden" the weaker disease.)
If is is a catalyst to other infection (which are well proven as being very hard to treat, like bartonella, babesia, a number of viruses etc) then the only way to enact a "cure" is to get rif of th catalyst. A little bit of catalyst can cause a big reaction but ufortunaltely the catalyst has become hardened and forced to the difficult to access areas in the body.
I am sure it more complicated than just this BUT this aspect should also be considered.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
The more I read, the more convinced I am that this hypothesis is right on the money!
Thanks to many on this board, I've been addressing the whole picture all along since my dx-- not just the abx and pharmaceuticals, but herbs and supplements for detox, immune strengthening, anti-viral supps, etc.
I honestly think that has made at least as much of a difference as the pharmaceutical treatments.
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
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Truthfinder
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posted
My theory is similar to that of David1097.
Although Bb seems to be a key player in the development of this disease complex, the longer I look at this whole mess, the more convinced I am that Lyme itself may not be the biggest culprit in making us sick or disabled.
I believe that the Lyme organism primarily acts as a ``gatekeeper'', and it is actually the co-infections that do us in.
Since we know that Bb is one of the most immunosuppressive infectious agents known, the primary role of the Lyme organism in this disease process may be that it simply ``opens the gate'' and allows other infections to be contracted and/or flourish.
A normal, healthy human immune system (barring genetic factors) is pretty aggressive and basically ``shoots first and asks questions later''. Simply put, it takes some time for your immune system to identify offending invaders to the body and develop antibodies to it. In the meantime, your Natural Killer cells attack anything and everything that they determine to be ``foreign''. If your NK cell count is compromised, you've lost a big advantage in preventing new microbes from gaining a foothold in your system before the rest of your immune system catches up. And that just ONE aspect of the immune system that can be altered by Bb.
The above theory would explain why:
1. There are people out there who have the Lyme bacteria in their system but have few symptoms or none at all;
2. One or more co-infections are found in nearly all symptomatic Lymies;
3. Treating co-infections FIRST (before treating the Lyme) is essential for patients to get well, because it is actually the co-infections causing the most illness;
4. It is so difficult to treat the co-infections because the Lyme basically has control of the immune system which is holding the ``gate'' wide open for additional infections and/or proliferation of existing infections......
The list could go on.
I don't mean to imply that the Lyme bacterium isn't one nasty, smart bug. But I'll lay you odds that a sick person with Lyme in their system has something else going on. With nearly 100 possible co-infections, can anyone really be sure that all they have is Lyme?
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
its called mycoplasma. its a dead serious bio weapon and most of us have it.... and all the ticks are carrying it too
Posts: 245 | From connecticut, the lyme state | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Minimonkey said:The more I read, the more convinced I am that this hypothesis is right on the money!
Thanks to many on this board, I've been addressing the whole picture all along since my dx-- not just the abx and pharmaceuticals, but herbs and supplements for detox, immune strengthening, anti-viral supps, etc."
Would you mind saying what herbs and supplements you have used as anti-viral agents.
Thanks Lil
Posts: 146 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2003
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Dave6002
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posted
quote: Since we know that Bb is one of the most immunosuppressive infectious agents known, the primary role of the Lyme organism in this disease process may be that it simply ``opens the gate'' and allows other infections to be contracted and/or flourish.
Do we have solid evidenc support this?
Immune system is composed of white blood cells but we cannot detect Bb in our blood most case.
If Bbs not present in blood or blood cells, how can it suppress the immune system? By what?
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote: Since we know that Bb is one of the most immunosuppressive infectious agents known, the primary role of the Lyme organism in this disease process may be that it simply ``opens the gate'' and allows other infections to be contracted and/or flourish.
Do we have solid evidenc support this?
Immune system is composed of white blood cells but we cannot detect Bb in our blood most case.
If Bbs not present in blood or blood cells, how can it suppress the immune system? By what?
Good question Dave! If you'd like to find the complex answer to your question, I suggest you read the thread I started last week entitled New Therapy, or something like that.
Borrelia is a very interesting organism from a biological and evolutionairy perspective. Borrelia can "communicate" its objectives from distances much like electrons can "talk" to each other even though they have no physical contact.
No one quite understands how this happens, but suffice to say that in long standing Lyme Disease, apparently what happens, and btw this has been proven through rigorous science as opposed to medical observation (which I believe is the purest form of science, but for argument sake, lets say this other testing is hard to dispute)
What happens is that the immune system is hijacked in a way that makes the white blood cells co-exist with Borrelia whether in the blood or tissues so that Borrelia isn't attacked by the immune system much like a Tapeworm can stay in the body for long periods and the only time there is ever an immune respons is durring the time when the tape worm first inters the intestines or other organs of the body, after that the parasitic worm adapts the immune system in extremely complicated ways to suit its own survival.
The same kinda thing happens with Borrelia infections not cleared in the initial stages of infection.
No one knows yet the exact chain of events leading to this immune suppression, but it also makes white blood cells statistically significantly less likely to kill and or attack other bacterial pathogens in addition to the co-existance that Borrelia has adapted for itself.
Now, this effect may also apply to viruses, fungi, and parasites, but so far, it has only been proven for Borrelia specifically, and other bacteria which were tested in several mouse in vivo trials, in vitro trails, and a few I believe with human blood.
This researcher, a German woman, is currently in the process of testing whether the drug Nuelasta can reversee this process.
But, it is fact, not theory, that Borrelia does suppress the immune system.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
As far as the theories posited by others concerning the jig saw hypothesis, I believe this is fact for any Borrelia infection that is "difficult" to cure. I also believe that unless Borrelia is cured in the intial stages that other opportunistic infections become active, and that they are most likely bacterial in origin, but future research may prove that in addition to bacterial propagation, viruses, fungi, and parasites bennifit from long standing Borrelia infection.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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ConnieMc
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posted
My situation is a perfect example. I was infected in 1998 and not diagnosed with Lyme until 2001. Treatment started and I had numerous ups and downs but never really saw any true progress. After months of orals and IV, I stopped IV and crashed hard. And was far sicker than I ever was before I started antibiotics.
One thing that stuck in my mind was that my doctor had run me through standard treatment for all coinfections during IV. I felt the best I had in a long time during that month-long course of Mepron, Zith and Clinda. But it did'nt last.
The doctor was convinced that something more than Lyme was going on. I had a previous neg Babs test, but we tested again. This time there were newer tests available. I was positive on the FISH test.
Once we set out to get the Babs under control, I did much better.
Even then all the treatment and diseases had taken their toll on my body. Once I was feeling better, I went to a nutritional medicine specialist and had an ION panel. I was found to be deficient in lots of things, so went on a strict program to replace things and get my body back into balance.
All this eventually paid off.
All this is quite complicated and it takes a multifaceted approach to get these diseases under control.
Posts: 2276 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
(This article describes mechanisms of immune suppression in Lyme - complement inhibition, induction of anti-inflammatory cytokines, & sequestration of antibodies in immune complexes.)
Microbes Infect. 2004 Mar;6(3):312-8.
Survival strategies of Borrelia burgdorferi, the etiologic agent of Lyme disease.
Embers ME, Ramamoorthy R, Philipp MT.
Tulane National Primate Research Center, Tulane University Health Sciences Center, Covington, LA 70433, USA.
To fight, flee or hide are the imperatives of long-term survival by an infectious microbe. Active immune suppression, induction of immune tolerance, phase and antigenic variation, intracellular seclusion, and incursion into immune privileged sites are examples of survival strategies of persistent pathogens. Here we critically review the supporting evidence for possible stratagems utilized by Borrelia burgdorferi, the spirochete that causes Lyme disease, to persist in the mammalian host.
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Truthfinder
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posted
Dave6002, I'm not sure why you say that "we cannot detect Bb in our blood most cases".
Not true, Dave. Bb - the actual bacterim - CAN be detected by something like the Bowen test. It is only the ANTIBODIES to Bb that are often undetectable by using other forms of testing.
That's why I'm not sure any antibody tests for this bug are ever going to prove very reliable.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Standard PCR tests which are the "gold standard" for most infectious organisms very rarely detect bb in the blood. Hubby was lucky enough to have one of these tests be positive, but many docs still discount his test results because the bb was only in the serum or whole blood (not both).
As for the Bowen test, there is a lot of debate regarding that test and not all LLMD's believe the validity of the test. For myself I am undecided. Would love to see some doubleblind studies which could add validity to the testing method.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Important topic imo & interesting thread. Thank you.
Posts: 71 | From germany | Registered: Mar 2006
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Dave6002
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quote:Dave6002, I'm not sure why you say that "we cannot detect Bb in our blood most cases".
Tracy,
Like Bea Seibert said that PCR tests very rarely detect bb in the blood, suggesting that the number of Bb in the blood is low enough to think that Bbs are not there.
Because PCR tests are very sensitive: can easily amplify 1,000,000,000 times, that means that in the "eyes" of PCR, one bacterium can be viewed as the size of one billion bacteria.
So if PCR can not "see" the bacteria, then there is no bacteria.
As for the Bowen test,that's using microscopy, we simply cannot identify bacteria by the image. Bacterium doesn't have any distinguishable image that exclude other things.
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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Sewer Rat
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posted
Borrelia is very advanced, and has been found throughout the body. I don't think Borrelia needs co-infections to persist and to cause symptoms.
Anyway, I don't see any reason to doubt that Borrelia alone can cause Lyme disease. I see it rather like this: co-infections make matters even more complicated and thus the treatments.
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Truthfinder
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Yes, Bea, I too would like to see the Bowen test challenged in a valid research study.
Frankly, I wonder sometimes if some LLMDs and others don't want to trust the Bowen test because if the test is accurate, then it means that there are way more Lyme bugs swimming around in ``healthy'' folks than anybody thought possible.
The danger with that is that there will be too many ducks and researchers who can then claim that Lyme can't really be much of a problem if so many people have it who are not symptomatic. That's the last thing any of us needs. So I understand some of the deeper politics involved here.
The only reason PCR tests are not very reliable is because the samples examined often don't contain any Bb DNA fragments. The problem seems to be one of homogenation throughout the entire blood sample taken. It appears that there are areas of the sample where DNA can be found, and other areas where there is no DNA to detect. I have not read anything that explains why this is so with Bb as it relates to the PCR test problem.
Dave 6002, technically speaking, the Bowen test does not rely on an identifiable ``image'' of the Bb, per se. It is the highly purified fluorescent antibody stain specific for Bb that they add to the blood sample that actually sticks to the Bb bug and ``fluoresces'' under the microscope. So the Bowen techs don't need to look for the smiling faces of L-form Bb - they simply look for the fluorescing of the antibodies that attach to the Bb. Pretty clever, really. This is the same way that tuberculosis is detected and diagnosed.
The Bowen test has been around for awhile now. Why have not any of the mainstream skeptics proven it to be unreliable? It shouldn't be all that tough to do, and you know we would all hear about it if that happened.
I have heard that attempts have been made to disprove the test, but none have been successful. But I have been unable to find any written documentation of that on the Net. Not too surprising.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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hardynaka
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posted
Very interesting thread indeed. I had this hypothesis in mind after own experience of knocking down babesia (temporarily) and having all my 'lyme' symptoms disappearing in days.
At this point I start to fully believe in this jigsaw hypothesis!
My immune system was never bad compared to other people, on the contrary, better than many, but I fell sick so fast after being bitten by a tick. I always ate well and was quite healthy. I was wondering why I fell so sick so fast and the co-infections synergistic hypothesis seemed plausible.
Now I'm treating only brain and intestinal parasites (plus heavy metal load) and not really lyme (except for 3 pills of andrographis a day) and feel almost fit.
I'm not even treating babesia/ bartonella that are still there untreated and feel almost symptomless (got some arm and leg numbness, basically). The 'feeling ill' can't be a result of borrelia alone. Not in my case.
And I was infected with borrelia just a year ago! Co-infections (non-tick born) are here and are very real !!! I believe many co-infections are result of borrelia immunosuppressant capabilities though.
Very good article for newbies, thanks.
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Pretty clever, really. This is the same way that tuberculosis is detected and diagnosed.
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