Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
The following is a repost because I think the title of the original post and the technical explanation scared many of you away and thus you didn't read my simplified version below.
Okay...here goes:
You can take all the antioxidants in the world to try to prevent DNA damage, but to knock out Bb which is CAUSING the DNA damage, we have to understand exactly what it is doing.
More importantly we must look closely at clues our body gives us as to how the body thinks it can destroy Bb. What are all the backup routes it takes to keep us alive? What goes up, what drops? Why?
Bb wiggles its way into the cells and makes the inside of the cells very acidic.
Now...the command center of the cell says to Miss Magnesium, "This cell is under attack and needs to be very acidic to destroy bad boy Borris that is in here and you are going to be destroyed too, so take a hike. Go instead into general circulation... to help make antibodies (with your friend-competitor Charlie Calcium), to help keep inflammation under control to the best of your ability, to quickly shut down angiotensin II and stop excess cholesterol production, and to INactivate PFK. Do your job(s). HURRY!"
Now from a slightly more technical standpoint, but one I hope you will understand:
To me, it looks like Bb locks onto our DNA strands INSIDE the cells. They look like ladders with hydrogen as the "rungs". The vertical strands are chains of amino acids...proteins.
Hydogen DNA bonds are really weak...the weakest in the body.
So, it looks like those bonds are broken = up goes the amt. of free floating hydrogen IN the cells and this might trigger Mg to leave the cells. Now the inside of the cell is acidic.
But Bb has a Mg transporter protein, so it can call for as much or as little Mg as it wants....enough to survive, but not enough to bond to our ATP as Mg-ATP to supply energy to that cell.
Bb makes its own ATP via the "glycolysis"/sugar route. We make it primarily thru the oxygen route although we can use both routes. ATP needs phosphate/phosphorus via either route!
(Too many hydrogens IN the cells = fewer outside = lower pH = metabolic acidosis.)Blood CO2 levels drop.
The Mg-ATP...to make energy... bond is broken. Now we make less energy in that cell. ATP is an energy carrier...but it needs Mg to work.
Inside the cells one is likely to see: (1)broken DNA strands (proteins - chains of amino acids)with Bb attached sucking away at the amino acids and (2) hydrogen...and (3) ATP with no Mg.
Now...meanwhile, it looks like when this happens, when the inside of the cell becomes too acidic, this triggers the cell command center to activate an enzyme (NFkB) to START the immune response. Since it takes a few DAYS for antibodies to be made...TNF alpha will go up first. Ouch. "I ache all over."
This response goes on and on and on...too much TNF alpha triggers angiotensin II (cholesterol is released...actually it's VLDL...very low density kind) from the liver. VLDL is very much like LDL...the "lousy" cholesterol.
This is what Bb wants. VLDL looks like it might contain what Bb is really after...choline.
All gram negative pathogens are missing acids. They need ours.
That's not to say Bb isn't sapping us of other nutrients too!
"Choline is needed to make VLDL."
If we can stop/lower TNF alpha, we theoretically should be able to stop the "cholesterol" pathway that Bb is taking...stop TNF alpha from triggering angiotensin II from triggering the release of VLDL...very low density lipoprotein. Think of it as "baby cholesterol".
But, this isn't the best/safest approach as blocking TNF alpha "side effect" is STILL cancer (DNA damage). We need to work "backwards".
IMO... this is the real problem:
Mg drops, Ca tries to go into the cells, TNF alpha kicks up, angiotensin II kicks in.
If we go back to the beginning (Mg drops)..and give a LOT more Mg (the right kind), we have a fighting chance. I don't think we had enough, fast enough, to counter the severe toxicity this pathogen triggers...from multiple pathways all at once.
From the Romanian abstracts...a LOT, a HUGE amt., of Mg was released to try to fight. There was a "significant" Mg loss right at the outset (the time of the rash).
But...to maintain the pH balance...the kidneys will dump "excess" Mg within a 2 hour time frame.
Since Bb does seem to need Mg...why not attach it to something it doesn't want...a bicarbonate? Citrates convert to bicarbonates. That makes Mg citrate/Mg bicarbonate "attractive".
If we can get that INTO the cells, if Bb takes it up...the bicarbonate theoretically should counter any excess hydrogen in the cells and make the INSIDE OF the cell more alkaline and...at the same time INactivate PFK.
Looks like Bb is perfectly happy hanging around in an acidic environment.
The oxygen connection...
We need oxygen, but it also is toxic to us in "excess" (and to pathogens) because excess -> "superoxides" -> hydrogen peroxide.
Now both superoxides and hydrogen peroxide can cause cell death and the death of most pathogens.
We can't have this happen, so we have (3)antioxidant enzymes to protect us...to breakdown that superoxide and hydrogen peroxide.
They are: superoxide dismutase (SOD), glutathione peroxidase and catalase.
The problem is...so do many of our worse pathogens. They can breakdown superoxides and H2O2...which helps them survive.
Repeat...the really bad germs contain antioxidant enzymes to prevent their own destruction by superoxides and H2O2.
If superoxide and hydrogen peroxide breakdown too fast or if a pathogen can breakdown these toxic oxygen compounds to "save its own skin", our 1st level defense system is kapoot.
Interjecting something: it would appear that hyperbaric oxygen would generate more superoxides than Bb can handle. It appears ozone saunas work differently by depleting the antioxidant enzymes that breakdown superoxide and hydrogen peroxide. In both cases -> an increase in superoxide and hydrogen peroxide.
Pick your poison.
There is a 3rd antioxidant enzyme that WE have, but Bb does NOT. It is our most abundant anti-oxidant enzyme...catalase...and why it is not kicking in maybe related to what is happening in the liver even though our cells throughout appear to contain some of this antioxidant enzyme (catalase).
If Bb is using our SOD and our glutathione ie., the nutrients we need to make these enzymes, then the body will call for help...the fat stored vitamins A and E...which we KNOW drop in lyme to help out.
Vitamin E (esp.) looks to be very important...esp. from a liver, pancreas and brain protection viewpoint.
Vitamin A...is a 2-edged sword. While it does seem to downregulate eye damaging TNF alpha, it UPregulates choline acetyltransferase. This maybe because all our cells must have cholesterol for their outer cell walls...including the cells of our eyes.
Bb looks to be using many of our nutrients, many of our proteins, many of our enzymes to survive.
Bb looks to ACTIVATE a number of our defensive enzymes:
1. NFkB - tiggers inflammation response
2. HMG CoA reductase - triggers cholesterol production
3. PFK - triggers sugar, in a round-about way
and maybe:
4. PKC...protein kinase C (because Bb has a "PKC inhibitor"...there are many, many kinds)...we'll talk about this another time.
We need to INactivate all of the above.
I know Mg will INactivate PFK and HMG CoA reductase. I KNOW Mg is also capable of stimulating DNA REPAIR (so is another nutrient helpful in protecting DNA).
It appears IF we can get enough Mg back INTO the cells, this might solve the problem from a LOT of aspects.
(But HOW...normally ATP pumps Mg into the cells.)
Since Hydrogen is one thing that normally INactivates PFK (brakes on the sugar-to-make ATP route)...this is odd. One would logically think, if Bb is "PFK dependent" how could it survive in that hydrogen rich acidic environment?
The other things that INactivate PFK include: H2O2. Now...if Bb is breaking down superoxides via the antioxidant SOD and then breaking down H2O2 (utilizing another antioxidant enzyme - glutathione peroxidase)...H2O2 -> H2O and O...which maybe reacting with some of the H = OH or HO? Not good!
Now Bb needs a LITTLE oxygen, not much, to survive. It has to have some, but too much maybe overwhelming to its defense. Because too much looks to -> a LOT of superoxides.
What else INactivates PFK? Citrates. Citrates convert to bicarbonates. Make the cell more alkaline...turn off glycolysis, "force" the oxygen route.
What is our body's response? Melatonin, to trigger *bicarbonate* release from the intestine. When coming down with a disease -> "Im tired. I need to sleep. I don't feel good."
So...it looks to me that Mg citrate/bicarbonate maybe the primary nutrient to change the INTRAcellular acidosis.
Now..we can reduce inflammation (TNF alpha) via Humira, etc. and it looks like antibiotics do alter the immune response too, but...
If we don't get Mg levels back up, cancer will happen...in time. Pathogen triggers DNA damage triggers cancer. Cells go wild.
Cancer ONLY happens in an acidic environment. If Mg-ATP remains low, Ca will continue to be pulled out of storage (bones) and this will trigger TNF alpha (acidic protein)...ongoing.
We MUST get the inside of the cells less acidic.
We HAVE to get Mg and the nutrients to make ATP back IN.
So...what is absolutely critical as far as nutrients go if you're broke?
1. Heal the gut first. You will get NOWHERE if your gut isn't healthy. The beneficial bacteria make many B vitamins for us...more than we consume AND they (lactobacillus) help bind zinc. Keep your digestive system healthy (!)...maintenance doses.
2. Mg citrate/bicarbonate...yes, I know about the latter...keep looking, it's there.
3. Lecithin. Need to restore choline and phosphorus.
4. B vitamins.
5. Vitamin E.
Now...this will NOT WORK if you continue to destroy the beneficial bacteria via abx. and further deplete various nutrients via abx.
And...many will say, "You want me to take the nutrients that Bb wants?! Are you nuts?"
Mg is needed to MAKE all proteins...these include immunoglobulins (antibodies), all the hormones and enzymes. It is absolutely critical to making energy...it, and only it, is attached to ATP.
Mg + phosphorus...ATP. Now...
Choline...
"A choline-deficient diet increased DNA damage in humans."
B vitamins work in harmony with Mg. We need the beneficial bacteria to make a LOT of B vitamins for us.
Restore the balance to heal. This will NOT happen overnight (!) and do not expect that as your own immune system kicks in...as you replenish the nutrients, the dormant forms will not emerge, they will.
Finally...when I have those not so cute teeny tiny ants in my kitchen, I put a little honey on a small square of aluminum foil and sprinkle a tiny amt. of boric acid on the honey and mix it with a toothpick, carefully, because boric acid is a powerful poison. I "lure" the ants with the honey, the boric acid does them in.
We can and WILL outsmart Bb.
Mg to INactivate HMG CoA reductase. Mg to INactivate PFK Mg to reduce inflammation (Mg is an anti-inflammatory, Ca triggers) Mg (along with Ca) to make HEALTHY antibodies..your OWN "antibiotics". Mg to stimulate DNA repair. Mg to displace Zn.
Mg attached to what...citrate/bicarbonate.
Small doses of the above nutrients more often is the key. Not massive doses all at once!!!
How did Dr. Valletta manage to cure RA, ulcerative colitis and invasive cancer in 6 months (although he was able to "jumpstart" this with IV doses)? (Patent: "Magnesium for autoimmune".)
What did he use?
Magnesium pyrophosphate and sub (lingual - under the tongue) B6.
Mg and B6 work together -> CoQ10.
Phosphorus...ya mean like in ATP...or
Mg + phosphorus = Mg-ATP...Power the cells.
Catching on?
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Marnie,
I'm trying. I'm really trying. Your posts are so close to what my doctor is doing for me and I am thriving.
My supplements do not seem to add much magnesium. You say we need mag/citrate (bicarbonate) right? In small frequent doses right? Is CoQ10 meeting that requirement for me?
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
While the CoQ10 supps. do include either soybean oil or rice bran oil...which themselves include many nutrients (Mg, B vits, etc.), I don't think you are getting the bicarbonate/citrate needed.
We DO absorb things thru our skin.
You could try adding baking soda (Na bicarb) to bathwater.
Maybe???
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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timaca
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6911
posted
Marnie~ There is a LLMD in my state that has a background in biochemistry. He does NOT want his patients to take magnesium AT ALL for he believes it allows the Bb to be protected by the antibiotics with a "slimey coat."
A friend of mine took her son to see him, and was so convinced of what he said that she stopped taking magnesium (she has lyme too).
If she can find an article, or a link to it, I will post it.
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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lymemomtooo
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posted
Marnie, you are one of my lyme heroes..Please never stop..I just wish I had a fraction of the grey matter that you have..
hugs..lymemomtooo
Posts: 2360 | From SE PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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5dana8
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Member # 7935
posted
Thanks Marine
For making this easier to follow.
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Hi Marnie,
I did soak recently in baking soda water after you suggested it to me before. No increased pain afterward. Yea! I didn't think of it as a source of magnesium.
Just today I drank water with 1/4 tsp baking soda in an effort to alkalinize as my morning urine was acidic. Is that just as good?
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Sue vG
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Member # 3143
Just wanted to remind you that there are 2 different types of SOD in the body -- one is manganese based (implicated in some forms of genetic ALS I think) and the 2nd is zinc and/or copper based.
I agree that healing the gut is a priority, but what about when the actual lyme or ehrlichia or babesia is in the G.I. lining? Hubby's 1st symptoms were G.I. and neuro together -- has never really healed the G.I. all the way -- will be having endoscopy to biopsy specimans for tick-borne illnesses within a week or two.
I don't know what the answer is, but personally hubby spent several hundred thousand dollars trying to balance his body nutritionally BEFORE taking any antibiotics -- did not have a diagnosis at the time.
Never came close to balancing hormones and other nutritional markers and symptoms continued to progress. On the other hand, in some ways symptoms became much more severe when attempting to kill Lyme with both herbs and antibiotics while continuing with nutritional supplements.
I personally think that anyone with coinfections, especially Babesia, will never be able to recover without either herbs/and or antibiotics. Hubby is getting closer to being nutritionally balanced now, but beginning to think there may be permanent damage to hypothalamus due to delay in intial treatment.
I don't pretend to know how the Lyme and Babesia and other coinfections interact, but in my opinion that is where the key is.
I don't think what you are proposing will have any effect on Babesia -- may actually make that coinfection stronger as I think Babesia uses phosphatidylcholine in its cell membrane.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Carol B
Unregistered
posted
here's my response to your post- I just spray those pesky little ants with Scrubbing Bubbles made to clean the bathtub-it stops them dead in their tracks, literally, because of the foam action-and any that may want to follow the trail get lost, discouraged and don't even try to make it to my spice cupboard.
That's how scientific I am. But I may print this out-and as a mental exercise read it everyday and highlight what I can understand-until one day-VOILA-the whole report will be a rainbow of color!
I will tell you-Plain English in the title did attract my attention more so than the more technical titles, which I tend to skip as a hopeless endeavor for me to comprehend at this point.
You're efforts are greatly appreciated. I wonder if LMT and I had our gray matter, as opposed to gray hairs, compared, who would have more(or less !) Maybe I should start a poll?
posted
how does magnesium glycinate compare to the citrate form? Glycinate is supposed to be easier to be absorbed with fewer lower GI upsets and my experience seems to indicate that that is true. However, how does the bicarbonate work with glycinate, or doesn't it?
Either way, I really, really appreciate the simpler language. Makes me feel like lyme has at least not taken away all of my brain!!!
Posts: 132 | From SE Pa | Registered: May 2006
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Even IF Bb is using this (and MANY other nutrients!!!) we CANNOT let the level drop.
Doctors at a Romanian Cancer Hospital found a "significant" (understatement) drop in Mg at the outset of this disease. They GAVE/RESTORED Mg levels and cured the patients.
Re: slime layer...also called biofilm...MOST pathogens have an LPS layer...Bb and mycoplasm do NOT.
To remove biofilms:
"To destroy an established biofilm, repetitive sanitizing cycles are usually required. The first step uses a normal biocidal agent.
The second step uses a *high pH solution*, usually sodium hydroxide, to help digest and remove the top layer of bacteria killed by the biocide.
Fresh biocide is then reintroduced to the system to kill the next bacterial layer, again followed by caustic.
This biocide/caustic cycle may need to be repeated several times until the entire biofilm is removed. For a well-established biofilm, 5 or l0 cycles are commonly required.
(So if longstanding lyme, likely you find you have a hard time in chlorinated swimming pools... and have to use the salt generator kind of system instead.)
Kinda amazing about choline chloride:
"The role of Na+ and HCO3- in the production of TNF-alpha by monocytes was investigated; it was observed that replacement of Na+ in the culture medium with sucrose or
choline chloride
inhibited TNF-alpha production completely"
These data suggest that (1) TNF-alpha production, as other proteins, is dependent on the pHi of monocytes,and (2) TNF-alpha production, in contrast to total protein, is modulated by Na(+)-dependent HCO3-.
PMID: 7591712
Note above...what appears to be missing...once again...bicarbonates.
Choline chloride is mass produced and is an important additive in feed especially for chicken where it accelerates growth. With urea it forms a deep eutectic solvent.
Other commercial choline salts are choline hydroxide and choline bitartrate. In foodstuffs the compound is often present as
phosphatidylcholine.
Judging from your location... perhaps far west coast.
Doctor R.B.S. perhaps?
The one who THEORIZED:
"who theorizes, based on the number of spouses/partners and children of Lyme patients who have mild infections themselves, that Borrelia burgdorferi, a relative of the spirochete that causes syphilis, may be transmitted sexually, in utero, and in breast milk."
Maybe he should talk to Karen Vanderhoof-Forschner...and Harvard researchers who do indeed recognize the transfer in breast milk.
Duh...we've known the above for a LONG time! This disease can indeed pass from mom to fetus and thru breast milk. No "theory" needed.
And IF R.B.S. - who said:
"Lyme disease is easy to cure if it is diagnosed early and treated with oral antibiotics."
I tend to disagree. If we're lucky (younger) and if NOT co-infected and if the load isn't too great...we...our own bodies MIGHT be able to stop this infection. I repeat...our own body, our own immune system, MIGHT be able to do its job...IF conditions are "right".
I find it very odd that R.B.S. doesn't share the belief in taking Mg supps. with his co-authors:
Lancet Infect Dis. 2006 Mar;6(3):122.
Lyme disease testing.
If this is the doctor you are seeing.
BTW...this doctor also treats HIV patients with AZT (which lowers choline further)and doesn't work...actually causes a LOT of harm. AND he is jointly in development with another drug to treat HIV.
Into a search engine, type in "AZT destroys"...
In all fairness...doc has my sis ( now "autoimmune") on Humira...
Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do.
Humira...side effect: TB and cancer. It lowers TNF alpha. TNF alpha is nasty...BUT...it:
"TNF-alpha inhibits the formation of osteoclasts in vitro through the p55 receptor on osteoblasts"
(Osteoclasts break down bone, and osteoblasts build it.)
So TNF alpha is trying to stop bone breakdown.
So now one has lowered TNF alpha, but the bones start to breakdown...so let's add:
Foxamax! Which INCREASES TNF alpha and CRP...not exactly "heart friendly"!
Okay...now let's add Mexotrexate...which also lowers choline....
OOPS...lymphadema...severe...
Bea...another SOD is Fe based...! FeSOD.
[ 21. July 2006, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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just don
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posted
marnie,
I so admire what you present.It is my sincere belief that YOU will solve the lyme puzzle long before the so called doctors of medicine will!!! You think outside the box, so to speak, and look at the 'overall' causes and effects rather than this sx and that sx. You fight the base of the fire and not the top of the flames.
Based on your observations here, could you test for something we now dont, kinda sorta, and make a more reliable testing mechanism based on your knowledge and info!!?????? Sorta like we test DNA now,,, when we didnt just a few years ago!! I think thats the first step, more reliable tests, then secondly a more reliable way of treatment!!
Keep working, you shall soon be the victor!! Do you wish it to be called the Marnie protocol???
I appreciate your trying to come down to my level of understanding, alas I am having to stretch to get that high. I will read this again later and see if it makes more sense then!!
-------------------- just don Posts: 4548 | From Middle of midwest | Registered: May 2001
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
NO..."Marnie protocol" please.
I am merely pulling together puzzle pieces...from all over the internet...research that has been done by many others...It is they who deserve the credit. George Eby. Dr. Valletta. And the Romanian Cancer doctors...for starters. I would be remiss to not mention Dr. B, who I truly admire for his dedication.
And...above all...you all here who have provided clues to where I should look...beginning with "one-sided symptoms"...a marker for an electrolyte imbalance.
Unfortunately, researchers don't generally look at what others have done...so we keep doing very similar research over and over.
A LONG time ago...Dr. Pierre Delbet (and a few after him) cured very serious infections using first, Na, but they found Mg compounds work even better. Obviously, the sooner treated the faster cured. But...this was PRIOR to vaccines. Now we could find a way to prevent infections...but then we added mercury...
It's all about nutrients. The germs take from us nutrients that we need to make neurotransmitters, hormones, enzymes, etc. They are all parasites.
Restore the balance to heal. I believe, "A body in balance has no disease."
Restoring that balance, however, is very very tricky.
To get ACCURATE testing...to measure HEALTHY antibodies...the levels of Mg and Ca have to be just right. It takes these 2 minerals to MAKE antibodies. Far too many are damaged ("fab") portion. I suspect those cannot/are not being measured by the Elisa or Western Blot...which measures the antibodies.
We KNOW this! If a portion of our antibody is damaged...it doesn't work.
Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.
The
bactericidal effect
of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.
Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.
The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.
PMID: 9125579
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Thanks for all of your great work. I supplement with magnesium and find it a godsend in reducing my symptoms. I am wondering what ratio of magnesium to calcium you suggest? I supplement almost exclusively with magnesium and am wondering if I need to up my calcium?
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I think it is very important to check Ca and K levels...Mg is notoriously inaccurate as it is supposed to be latched onto ATP as Mg-ATP INSIDE the cells...to power the cells. Very little is in "general circulation". It is hard to measure how much is truly in the rest of the trillions of body cells...powering them.
So...get a simple blood electrolyte test. See where your Ca level is at. Do you have osteoporosis? If your Ca is low, then balance it...perhaps Ca:Mg... 1:1 as in "days past"...not 2:1
If Ca and K are low...Mg is very low. We cannot "hold onto" Ca and K...over time if Mg goes too low.
Mg low...the body calls for the other "more reactive" minerals to help out...to maintain the pH balance.
Li K Na Ca Mg
Reactivity order.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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just don
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1129
posted
Marnie,
Could you PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, try one more time to simple up that last post for the less generously endowed grey mattered of the group"ME" . Thats where it went I am sure!!!
And define those last letters to the full words of minerals or whatever they are--I knew a couple of them but has been too long since school times where we were 'supposed' to have memorized such stuff(i couldnt figure out why just then),,, and its too late NOW (for ME).
Help the febble brained ????? . And then you earn a great BIG . I know it is HARD for you to do but try your very best. We ALL so appreciate your efforts!!!
-------------------- just don Posts: 4548 | From Middle of midwest | Registered: May 2001
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Carol in PA
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posted
Don, I can help on some of those abreviations.
Li - ? (Lithium?) K - Potassium Na - Sodium Ca - Calcium Mg - Magnesium
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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You don't mention supplementing zinc, which you've said Bb depletes.
Supplementing zinc would feed the Bb, but it seems like we should since the immune system requires zinc to function, it seems we should supplement it, Right?
posted
You are feeding the keets with all the mag, that's what they use the most, so why not add zinc. Mag in the oral doses will never get rid of Bb like the Romanian study did. They used very high dose IV mag, and a special kind at that, plus IV abx. If you'r supplementing with mag, then I wouldn't worry about feeding the keets with other minerals.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Maybe we should be drinking seltzer water?
Posts: 30 | From conn. | Registered: May 2006
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klutzo
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Member # 5701
posted
For a slightly different take on the argument about whether or not to take Mg...
I look at Mg supplementation from an entirely practical perspective.
Simply put: If I do not take enough Mg citrate, my heart problems become life-threatening, with constant arrhythmias, and arterial spasms that literally bring me to my knees.
The heart runs on Mg, more than any other nutrient, so I think we must replace what Bb takes, or risk the sort of damage I have (3 leaking valves and 2 conduction disorders) and maybe even death.
I did not know enough to replace it back when the damage was taking place, earlier in my illness. I wish I had known.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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lymednva
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posted
Carol B., I'm with you. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who didn't understand the plain English in this post.
The highlighting is a good idea. I actually did understand some of it, but I finally gave up because it was too long for me to read.
If I only had my brain back!
-------------------- Lymednva Posts: 2407 | From over the river and through the woods | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Potassium depletes Mg? Should dietary modifications be made to deter this?
I take magnesium citrate (250mg with 265mg malic acid, by SISU) sporadically but sometimes I did regularly and consistently multiple time a day. I did not notice anything during those times. How long does magnesium restoration take place and is it even feasible considering how long it takes to be effective, is that really competitive with how fast Lyme destroys Mg reserves?
I have the tense electric skin, twitches (not as bad lately for some reason), and the daily teeth gnashing, and I found this article on bruxism:
This guy found considerable benefit in the magnesium supplementation, makes you wonder if there's a connection to Lyme. The course of treatment was very long, though. Is there any way to make it shorter? Something for better absorbtion?
Is there a cap on how much you can take a day? I was considering taking it 4 times a day, or maybe more at intervals at ever 3-4 hours? How long does an oral magnesium dose maintain effective circulation in the body and at what dose?
Posts: 244 | From Ottawa | Registered: Dec 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Daniel...Mg levels drop in lyme very fast...this is what the Romanian Cancer doctors found.
When this happens, Calcium and potassium rise.
After a long time...they drop too.
Basically....our mineral "shelves" are emptied.
All it takes is for ONE nutrient to be off and it eventually effects all the others.
I'm playing with my mouse today (computer mouse) running around the internet...I don't like it when a lyme patient dies (IV bismuth compound killed a lyme patient)...I want to know WHY and how to prevent this from ever happening again.
More falling into place.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Yes, thanks! Your work is awesome. I try to do that too, pretty much everyday, but it is such a maze for me.
Especially with Mg, how does one even find a meaningful test for Mg that is accessible to non-resarch patients?
I think I am going to try to bombard myself with Mg but I worry that it could ruin the absorbtion of other meds/supps and waste them... It's so complicated.
We need the Lyme Research Centre opened and funded with government and academic commitment ASAP.
Posts: 244 | From Ottawa | Registered: Dec 2005
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If you take it and it just tastes like water, you need zinc (take the dose on the bottle)
..or if it tastes like zinc (strong taste) .. you don't need it.
Some say the same thing about Mag by watching the bowel movements.
Total saturation, without overdosing - is the dosing amount just under what it takes to bring on diareah. I agree spacing it out with frequent doses is best.
I believe our needs will change over time and circumstances (and diet, for some minerals, will play a role in whether you need calcium or other supps, for instance).
So you have to get to know your intake diet wise. I try to get as much as I can of most minerals/nutrients from food.
(ie: I think my kefir drinking gives me enough of allot of things, so I don't over supplement those, and I also take blackstrap molasses a couple of times a day which counts toward some of my magnesium, eat eggs and you have selenium, ect, ect - but you have to then pay attention to what you are doing/getting)
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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