posted
I think it has been around for as long as man or more. Don't you believe it came along from out of nowhere in the seventies.
Some people believe it was genetically altered for biowarfare at plum island in the seventies. That maybe the case but the organism has been around for a lot longer than that.
It just went undiagnosised or misdiagnosised as other illnesses. Somewhere I remember reading about a mouse from a museum in the 1800's that tested positive for borrelia. So it has atleast been around for one hundred years.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Hi there -- in response to your Q about when Lyme began, I am sitting here with a very interesting book on Lyme and other co-infections, "Bull's Eye" by Jonathan Edlow, MD, c2003. He writes about the history of the discovery of Lyme and all the co-infections, including the discovery of the Lyme spirochete bacteria by Willy Burgdorfer in 1981. Ch 10: "Ticks have been around since antiquity." "Ticks have lived in North America for centuries as well. In 1754, Peter Kalm, referring to ticks in land that is now the United States, is quoted as saying, 'This small vile creature may, in the future, cause the inhabitants of this lsand great damage unless a method is discovered which will prevent it from increasing at such a shocking rate.'" Ch 16: Edlow writes that a Yale research team did DNA tests on the ears of preserved mice from Cape Cod from 1894 and found the Lyme B burgdorferi in them. European investigators reproduced those experiments using archived ticks from various parts of Europe including England and found borrelial DNA dating back to the late 1880s.
I think, and this is me talking, not Edlow, there is a lot of discussion on whether this spread of Lyme and co-infections is all natural, or whether some of it is genetically engineered from the 1940s on. Google for Garth Nicolson's name -- he's a doctor in Huntington Beach, CA who's been doing some very interesting research work. -- Robin
Posts: 13171 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Hi -- just read the posts above mine and want to add one more comment. Yes, European research was imperative to leading Willy Burgdorfer to look for a causative spirochete. There was quite a history of documentation from various European countries from 1883 on(as listed in the first couple pages of Edlow's book) of the symptoms of Lyme and guesses that it might be a spirochete. -- Robin
Posts: 13171 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Spirochetes are almost as old as.. uh.. Lyme tutu!!
Spirochetes have been found in the INTESTINAL TISSUE of a 20 million year old termite that was found fossilized in amber.
1: Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2002 Jan 29; [epub ahead of print]
Spirochete and protist symbionts of a termite (Mastotermes electrodominicus) in Miocene amber.
Wier A, Dolan M, Grimaldi D, Guerrero R, Wagensberg J, Margulis L.
Department of Geosciences, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003; Department of Entomology, American Museum of Natural History, New York, NY 10024; Department of Microbiology, University of Barcelona, 08028 Barcelona, Spain; and Museu de la Ciencia de la Fundacio "la Caixa," 08022 Barcelona, Spain.
Extraordinary preservation in amber of the Miocene termite Mastotermes electrodominicus has led to the discovery of fossil symbiotic microbes. Spirochete bacteria and wood-digesting protists were identified in the intestinal tissue of the insect.
Fossil wood (xylem: developing vessel-element cells, fibers, pit connections), protists (most likely xylophagic amitochondriates), an endospore (probably of the filamentous intestinal bacterium Arthromitus = Bacillus), and large spirochetes were seen in thin section by light and transmission electron microscopy. The intestinal microbiota of the living termite Mastotermes darwiniensis, a genus now restricted to northern Australia, markedly resembles that preserved in amber.
This is a direct observation of a 20-million-year-old xylophagus termite fossil microbial community.
quote:Originally posted by Tincup: Spirochetes have been found in the INTESTINAL TISSUE of a 20 million year old termite that was found fossilized in amber.
Wow! That's really a long time ago. I guess there were not even ducks yet.
I already suspected that spirochetes have existed longer then humans, and the species Borrelia perhaps too. The next question is when Borrelia first contaminated humans, and when they became pathogenic.
About the discovery of Lyme disease: I think Steere gets way too much credits, and the researchers before him get way too less.
While decades earlier researchers had demonstrated they were dealing with an infectious disease and successfully treated Borreliosis with antibiotics, Steere and his colleges initially concluded that antibiotics don't work, and treated patients with aspirin and Steeroids (pun intended).
Steere also initially ignored symptoms other than the rheumatological ones, thus either not checking or ignoring the medical literature of the past.
I guess this shows Steere actually wasn't such a good researcher. Also, I have never seen him mentioning Polly Murray, who also deserves lots of credits. So, Steere isn't a gentleman either.
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
"I think Steere gets way too much credits, and the researchers before him get way too less."
Yes.. and from what I recall, he had to be dragged out to the Lyme, CT area... by the ear.. kicking and screaming.. to go "do something" because of the continual complaints raised by the citizens.. and mothers in the area. Bless their hearts.
My impression is he basically stumbled across it accidently... after being forced to go look... and has taken credit for it ever since.
He also originally described it as a "virus" that needed no antibiotic treatment... and only "symptomatic" treatment.
Interesting to note back then he DID confirm there were "severe" neuro and cardiac complaints that came with it... and THOSE symptoms needed attention.
Of course these are only my opinions.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````
Hosp Pract. 1978 Apr;13(4):143-58.
Lyme arthritis: a new clinical entity.
Steere, et al
Named for the Connecticut town where the first identified cases occurred in 1972, this disorder has since been found elsewhere and may be caused by a virus transmitted by ticks.
Attacks are often preceded by erythema chronicum migrans and are seldom prolonged, though they may recur. Symptomatic treatment only is advised, except in the rare instances of severe neurologic complications or myocardial conduction abnormality.
quote:Originally posted by Bugmenot: >>>>>> PLUM ISLAND <<<<<< Plum Island is a few miles away from Lyme, Ct.
Plum Island Animal Disease Center [biolevel 4 or 5]
I believe the first child diagnosted with "Lyme Arthritus" played near the ferry landing to Plum Island on the Connecticut side [1976?].
I do not really buy the Plum Island conspiracy theories. They might indeed have experimented with Borrelia, and perhaps they (accidentally) spread Borrelia. But Borreliosis has been described throughout the 20th century in Europe. Most of the symptoms had already been described, and people could get very ill just like nowadays.
Borrelia was found in ticks collected in Europe in the 19th century, and ALSO in mice collected in 1894 in the USA! So Borrelia wasn't "invented" on Plum Island, as some people want us to believe.
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quote:I do not really buy the Plum Island conspiracy theories.
I agree Lyme is not a good bioweapon at all. It is slow, not immediately deadly, and not contagious enough. Why waste your time with Lyme when you have anthrax, the plague, and smallpox?
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Thanks for the pic of Plum Island! While it isn't the CAUSE for Lyme, I think they may have made things worse.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Lyme as we know it has been around for a long time. I read a few months ago, that it was brought over here from Europe more than 100 years ago when some horses were brought over here.
All the animals have been here longer than we have. Probably 7,000 years longer.
What OUR problem is, is that mankind keeps TRYING to change what is natural, and therefore keeps devolving what was created as "good" things. So we all have to suffer, whether we had anything to do with it or not.
posted
I do believe the Plum Island therory! And I also believe lyme started a very long time ago. But maybe they could have mutated it into something much worse..... something harder to irradicate?
Hitler and his cronies also were known to mutate Bb to make into something they could use for biological warfare.
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
The organism in one form or another has been around for 30 Million years. It even did Napoleon in - not the furious winter, but the bug in 1812 or thereabouts.
P.S. And until we stop our attacks on all living things with our poisons, it's only bound to get worse.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Syphilis is not Lyme, so don't confuse the two.
You want me to believe now, that thousands of years ago the doctors of the time could detect and identify Bb when they can not do it today?
Good one.
Do you realize how much smaller a virus is than a spirochete?
Think people.....there is a timeline for these discoveries and they don't start with the smallest micro organisms and progress to the larger ones. It's the other way around.
It's no coincidence about Plum Island being a few miles away from "Lyme Ct". Just as it's no coincidence that "Not Lyme Disease" has swept across north america from that entry point in the last 30 years.
It's no "theory" that the Iraqi scientist working with "mycoplasma fermentans" at Plum Island moved back to Iraq just before Gulf War 1. Just as it's no theory about Gulf War Syndrome (Disease) and mycoplasma.
I've heard all the denial before with Vietnam and Agent Orange. Fool me once and all that. How many decades did that take for the government to come clean on that?
Come on people.
Basically you all can believe "whatever", just stop wondering about the bizarre politics of getting proper diagnosis and treatment for the "Not-Lyme Disease".
It's bad enough just having bugs, let alone dealing with a government that's full of worms
Posts: 33 | From Oregon | Registered: Sep 2005
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