Topic: what keeps carrier animals from getting sick?
5dana8
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posted
Deer, birds and small ground animals carry lyme infected ticks. And yet deer don't limp or have lyme dementia & confusion, or are birds falling from the sky from being so tired.
What keeps the carrier animals that carry lyme ticks from getting deathly ill with lyme and lyme symptoms?
posted
I was wondering about this also. I know my dog has been treated for Lyme in the past. She couldn't stand up, after being treated she seemed back to her old self.
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5dana8
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posted
hi nancyf723
I wonder why people and dogs get sick but why do deer and birds ect.. don't?
Is there an immunity factor?
Is there something we could be learning from the deers and birds that could prevent in the future more people from getting sick?
posted
Since domestic animals and humans can get ill from Lyme, farm animals also fall ill to various zoonotic infections -
I think it must have something to do with diet supporting super strong immune systems.
Most animals in the wild are still eating the perfect diets for their systems. Most humans are not, and neither are our pets. TBD's are a major hit to the immune system. We are also exposed to allot more toxins.
Infections that are solely responsible in wiping out wild animals are extremely rare -- and usually involve prions rather than bacteria.
(Most of the wild die due to environmental toxins or destruction of natural habitat - restricted access or contamination to food or plants that they need.)
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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5dana8
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posted
Mo
That makes alot of sense!
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treepatrol
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posted
Wild animals like deer usually dont go past 6or7 years old or if sick preyed upon. Domestic stock get butchered lots of times before symptoms show up. Or there feed contains abx's perodicaly.Or they put them down.And some like birds have fast metabolisms which it either kills them quickly or they die and are not noticed look at west nile I personaly for the last to years just around my house have found birds dead, I live in a borough cats scarf them up quick and now this year I have seen a hawk take three or 4 birds if there weak or not on the ball they get eaten.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Marnie
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posted
A forest ranger observed that when deer are ill, they go to brown streams to drink the water.
Brown streams?
Tannins.
Tannic acid...very potent. Tannins are in a lot of good foods...blueberries come to mind.
For many years there was a "Universal remedy".
In fact it was in the Merck manual, but removed for "no room" reasons...well...
It was: Magnesium oxide, tannic acid and activated charcoal.
Knock off the pathogen, soak up the toxins.
We mess up tannic acid when we try to duplicate it. We don't get it quite "right".
It's not only the chemical formula, it is the STRUCTURE of chemicals that makes a HUGE difference. In other words HOW they combine.
Let me give you an example. We both have identical building blocks to construct something. Our buildings end up looking different even though we had identical blocks to begin with.
Along comes a wind. My building is destroyed, yours stood up.
It all depends on how the chemical is put together....whether it will work or not.
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Truthfinder
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posted
I've wondered this, too.
Somehow, I suspect it comes down to "survival of the fittest". In the wild, those with the strongest immunity to the microbes and other dangers go on to live and breed.
In the human and dog worlds, many of us would have perished early but medical intervention kept us going. So now we have a lot of "genetically inferior" people and dogs running around that pass these traits on to offspring.
BUT, why is it that dog's rarely (if ever) get "chronic Lyme"? Maybe it is because most of us feed our dogs better than we do ourselves?
Good questions....
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 5dana8: Do they have immunity?
No one has immunitity to borrelia. It's a stealth pathogen. I'd agree with most of the above posters. two points. One the diet is much better than that of us. Raw veggies, fruits, nuts and daily excercise...can't beat that.
Two...any host that gets "lyme" borrelia which causes inflamation and thus disease will not survive. Both the host and the genetically screwed up version of borrelia get wiped out. It's the borrelia genes which are the problem. Only the stealthy critters survive and get to move on.It's been going on for a long, long, time.
[ 31. July 2006, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: brentb ]
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MagicAcorn
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posted
Have you seen the deer in New York?
They do not look healthy. I wouldn't eat venizen even if I was given it. The deer look bedragggled, and like they have mange.
Recently I was in Virginia and saw beautiful deer. They were absolutely regal looking, and how I remember the deer used to look in New York. Their coats were smooth and they looked to be flourishing.
The deer in Greene County New York have something going on. I've heard of wasting disease in deer - well it is for surely happening where I am.
Do they have immunity? I don't think so. At least not the ones I see at dusk and dawn in Greene County.
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posted
What makes you so sure the carrier animals aren't sick? The the last poster said. I have seen some awful looking deer around here in the North Georgia Area. They have mange badly and are walking very feebly. I am not sure if it is wasting disease of if Lyme really is the wasting disease.
When someone looks at most people with Lyme from a distance do they look sick?
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5dana8
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posted
I am not sure the carrier aniamls are not sick but I am pretty sure they are not as sick as humans. How many of us, if we where deer would, be too tired to run from hunters? You would see more of them limping I think...
And why don't we see deer having seisures,confusion,ect.. If they had neuroborreliosis they would be wandering around in a daze and not knowing where they are.
Or if infected with bart..fightening to the death.
The birds and other small animlas I think would exhibit much of the same sick qualities we do and I am not hearing about this in the news and else where.
I am not saying to the poster that the deer may not look sick...but I don't hear of them acting as sick as most people....
Just curious and looking for answers. I still think they may have some sort of immunity. Other than environmental & diet.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by treepatrol: Wild animals like deer usually dont go past 6or7 years old or if sick preyed upon.
I think treepatrol hit it on the head here. Again we're talking borrelia not "Lyme" which would cause problems in any host.
If we think of an Alzheimers patients, borrelia has been living in them for their entire lives. Only late in life (like 80yrs) do the symptoms show up.
Seeing as how deer have a much shorter life span these type diseases wouldn't show up IF borrelia does not differentiate in it's virulence (not exactly the word I want) between various mammal host.
As to deer being a bactericidal host I've not seen anything to prove that to be the case. Like all mammals they/we are a natural reservoir
[ 31. July 2006, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: brentb ]
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MagicAcorn
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posted
Believe me the deer in New York are not fairing well. I live here and SEE it with my own eyes.
There have also been cases of deer stumbling into windows, store fronts, and acting disoriented.
We see deer for a few moments at a time so how can we know whether we are sicker than they are?
Deer also have a totally different physiology so may have a host of different ailments from us.
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5dana8
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posted
Thanks Cave76
For taking the time to post this information !
Very interesting!
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Truthfinder
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posted
I wondered if the Western Fence Lizard would be discussed on this thread....... it is so fascinating. But I have searched and searched and can't seem to find any recent information about this.
``Entomologist Robert Lane'' is supposedly the researcher at UC Berkeley that made the Western Fence lizard discoveries.
I found a Robert S. Lane listed in the ``faculty'' e-mail addresses at UC Berkeley.
Should I write to him and ask him if the research is continuing, and if there have been any recent discoveries or papers released? Do you think he will talk to me?
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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5dana8
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posted
I still can't find concrete evidence as to wheather its genetics/proteins, ect.. why animals seem to have a natural immunity..Science needs to do more research on this topic!
quote:Originally posted by 5dana8: why animals have a natural immunity..Science needs to do more research on this topic!
Other than this lizard fellow animals do not have a natural immunity. As the paper states the study was done on "natural European reservoir hosts" ie borrelia "infects" all of them.
Of special interest is the part "However, antibodies to the outer surface proteins A (OspA) and B (OspB) were not found in recipients infected via ticks." ie Stealth pathogens at work.
The only antigen detection was on "various spirochetal antigens" just like us humans. With the ability to "antigen shift" borrelia and the host are playing the game hide and go seek.
As to the rest I have little interest in the other modes of transmission and the immune response because not many of us will be infected by an "intradermal injection of spirochetes." Why throw this card into the study?
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5dana8
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Member # 7935
posted
Hi Brentb
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
IF deer & birds and other animals that carry infected lyme ticks do not have immunity then how do they not get so sick like humans do?
They carry the disease but don't die or get deathly ill.
This is the basic question that is haunting me lately.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Chronic Wasting disease in deer and elk is neuro-degenerative and slow acting, but is reported to be caused not by bacteria or infection, but by prions (like BSE or Mad Cow disease).
A prion is an abnormal protein, cells without a nucleus. Prions are much more frightening than bacteria, even Bb. Immune system or anti-microbials can't touch prions.
This disease is noted to be spreading.
Many animals also suffer from health problems related to deleterious environmental issues running rampant throughout the US.
Mo
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Truthfinder
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posted
I wrote to Professor Lane at UC Berkeley, and he wrote back!
I will post what he said on a new thread.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 5dana8: Hi Brentb They carry the disease but don't die or get deathly ill.
I'll try to explain it but it's best left for the pros. ------------------------------------------------- We conclude that 'Lyme disease' currently acknowledges only its zoonosis arm and is a limited conceptualization of a far more pervasive and unrecognized infection state that must be considered a global epidemic. http://www.canlyme.com/pandora.html ----------------------------------------------- When you state they carry the disease thats not exactly correct. They do carry borrelia. If we think about the life cycle of Bb it's a constant movement from host back to vector (tick). Bb unlike any other bacteria I know of changes it's structure to survive in both conditions.
Like every other living thing Bb can have genetic defects. "Lyme borrelia" is just that. As to whether it came from Plum Island? pure speculation and I doubt could ever be proved. In any case the "Lyme borrelia" has lost the ability to perfectly hide from the host immune system.
In this instance you'll get inflamation aka disease as the immune system finds the bug and brings out an immune response. Bb has more than one way to beat the immune system so the defect doesn't make the Bb killable.
Now we need to get into a survival of the fittest mind frame. If any borrelia causes any type of damage (arthritis,neuro problems,etc) that host along with the borrelia will not last long.
It's a very Darwinistic concept. The genetic screwup "lyme borrelia" has weakened the host so both the host and the "lyme borrelia" are weeded out. Only the Bb that can continue to carry out it's life cycle without harming the host move on.
As to the above posters and reports of deer going berzerk, it's very possible Lyme borrelia is the culprit. Notice how those strains and deer are quickly weeded out.
Final point is that "epedimic borrelia" can also cause disease. Especially if one feeds the bugs with refined sugar/carbs etc. The problems they cause are usually latter in life such as diabetes,MS,ALS,Alzheimers. These borrelia are passed down generation after generation. Can we say genetic diseases?
Sorry I'm just a lay person, wish someone could explain it better...Hope it makes sense.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
If you've groked all this (fully took in) then you should see that "Lyme" is a subset of disease in general. The great immitator is immitating itself only in a much quicker fasion. (due to genetic defects of borrelia)
We can also see why our gov't will not allow widespread use of abx to cure these diseases. Impossible is the word that comes to mind.
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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