posted
I don't think that you are going to get a definitive, proven "yes" on this one, as the jury is still out in terms of hard evidence -- but you can read the book Lab 257, which explains how lyme could have escaped from the lab at Plum Island -- and also there is a reference in the book The Belarus Secret (Loftus' book on the secret government documents about Nazi scientists in the US) stating that there was evidence that "poison ticks" were dropped from planes in the US (some say around the Long Island Sound area, near Lyme) to spread disease...
If you google Lyme and Bioterrorism, lyme and warfare, etc. you'll get a ton of links -- sort through them and decide for yourself which seem credible to you and well supported, etc.
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I have just recently been liberated from working in the area of bioterrorism (professionally), and I can tell you from the perspective of the field that lyme is not considered a weaponizable pathogen. Anything that would need to be delivered into the bloodstream for infection is not viable. Most (if not all) are inhalational. Also, the latency is far too long (even during the acute phase of the disease).
Posts: 393 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
Docjen said: from the perspective of the field that lyme is not considered a weaponizable pathogen. Anything that would need to be delivered into the bloodstream for infection is not viable. Most (if not all) are inhalational. Also, the latency is far too long (even during the acute phase of the disease)from the perspective of the field that lyme is not considered a weaponizable pathogen. "
That makes a lot of sense to me, but why, then, would they be studying borrelia in these top secret labs? Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I know I'm going to take an unpopular stance here, but assuming there really is Lyme research going on in top secret government labs, could it not be to either learn more about the disease or related coinfections?
I mean, we have all these gulf war vets with some sort of autoimmune/prion/mycoplasma condition, depending on what your believe. Could they not be researching cures for this sort of thing?
Now for a little "out there" theory. Suppose Ft. Detrick or wherever actually knows the widespread, long term effects of Lyme, but because the gov't doesn't want to cause a panic or what have you, the CDC keeps things under wraps. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't work on curing it. I mean, what happens if a Senator, Pentagon official, or other such VIP gets sick?
I don't expect government, especially our current administration to be altruistic, but I do expect them to protect their own asses first.
As docjen says, lyme makes for a horrible bioterrorism agent.
Lets not let conspiracy theories get the best of us now. Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
Blackstone said: "I don't expect government, especially our current administration to be altruistic, but I do expect them to protect their own asses first. "
Now THAT makes sense! ! !
Also, throw in some Yale type consultants, to help......for future $.
Capitalism in its shining glory!
Now, the problem: Steerites are displaying limited thinking, so it would behoove these labs to take another look at chronic/undiagnosed/persistent lyme,
Of course, Dept. of Defense is a notoriously flagrant big spender, so they would be a "nice" source of funds for this type of research?
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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lymemomtooo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5396
posted
Blackstone, I would not be surprised that you have hit the nail on the head..
I remember hearing something about Ft Deitrick in the past on here and that they had accidentally added lyme to the list of bio-weapons or something..A few here jumped on it at the time..
Just wish my memory was better..
But the govt. knows so much more about all of this than the local Ducks..They have a biology lab there and one of the biologists talks to our support group about ticks.
Posts: 2360 | From SE PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: why, then, would they be studying borrelia in these top secret labs?
I don't know what government labs are studying what pathogens, but I can hypothesize that if they are looking at borrelia in a government BT lab it is to see if some errant terrorist group COULD possibly weaponize it, and if so, what we can do to prevent it from spreading.
Posts: 393 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2005
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
Docjen said: "what we can do to prevent it from spreading. "
Aha.....vaccines! Do I see drooling up in Conn.?
So, perhaps those who already have it are considered "collateral damage"? (no treatment, fend for yourselves, triage philosophy....)
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I'm not jumping aboard either side of this debate in earnest -- but I do think it is conceivable that early in the cold war research, TBDs were studied (for whatever reason) at Plum Island, Ft. Detrick, etc. and escaped or were tested outdoors -- perhaps it was accidental, perhaps no-one predicted how widespread they would become...
There is SO much institutional denial and misinformation about these diseases -- I know a lot of it can be traced to monetary interests, but that doesn't wholly satisfy me as an explanation.
I'm one who just likes to have as many of the facts as I can...
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Minimonkey said: "I'm not jumping aboard either side of this debate in earnest"
I was not responding as a debate......more like developing scenarios of personal, political, military motivations, to explore, etc.
Especially since it is "secret" research, thus, no facts are available....only idle speculation! Good for the imagination to play once in a while!
Gee, I wonder how much stock the Shapiro/Steere people have in certain drug companies? Sort of like Rumsfields "flu vaccine" ties.............
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I don't know if any of you missed this but about 6 months ago or so one of the big univercities in Texas received money from the Government to research a number of pathogens for bio-terism, lyme was on the list. It was posted on lymenet and I found the artical in a newspaper story.
Posts: 582 | From milwaukee wi | Registered: May 2005
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david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3662
posted
I also do not believe that Lyme is a viable BT agent. IF one of the labs is working with it, it would lilely be a project aimed at developing antigens that can be used for testing. This translates into licensing money. BNL did this (BNL is NOT a top secret lab though), I suppose that Plumb island might also be doing something similar. However...The insects still can escape though...
Aside from the issues that jen said, the organism is so complex that I truly believe that even if one wnated to, it could not be engineered. Far better to go with something like ebola or marburg, much more deadly, can be aerosolized and acts fast.
I suppose that a long term consprircy could exist to infect all the top politicians with lyme and thus may them go crazy with no obviouls signs of disease... but wait that already occurs without lyme infection (or maybe not)....
As I have said before.
Do not blame on conspricy what can be equally well explained by total incompetance.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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Lyme was listed under #10 on it but it was edited out December 05.
-------------------- We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand... and melting like a snowflake. Let us use it before it is too late. Posts: 221 | From the hills | Registered: Mar 2006
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-------------------- We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand... and melting like a snowflake. Let us use it before it is too late. Posts: 221 | From the hills | Registered: Mar 2006
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liz28
Unregistered
posted
Wouldn't Hostess Sno-Balls be more effective stealth agents? The ones in my office's candy machine look like they have been there since the Cold War, and their white powder coating could probably kill on contact.
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-------------------- We have only this moment, sparkling like a star in our hand... and melting like a snowflake. Let us use it before it is too late. Posts: 221 | From the hills | Registered: Mar 2006
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david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3662
posted
I forgot to mention, insect vectored bio warfare agents HAVE been used in the past, mainly in the form of louse and flea bourne diseases.
These have been used in WW2 by the japaneese in china and some speculate also by the russians during the battle for stalingrad. There was also some information supporting a weapons program in south africa years ago (during the time that they also had a nuclear weapons program)
Insect delivery has a much more controllable deployment, but again, the diseases are typically acutely disabling and preferably not fatal, although acutely fatal infections that are passed person to person had been used for obvious reasons.
The soviets had a huge secret bioweapons program (that was in violation of the treaties at the tim) prior to the collapse (anthrax, Marburg and other hemoragic fevers, q fever, small pox to name a few) and there have been some reports that Q fever was also used in their afganistan war using flea transmission but this is only speculation.
It may be possible that a different borriela species have have been used such as the organism that is responsible for relapsing fever. It is more acute and disabling but not tyically fatal so it may fit the bill. There are other animal carried spirocetes like leptosprira (weils disease) which are transmissible and viable in drinking or bathing water, this would also seem to be a candidate for strain refinement and use in places where water is sparse, although there are a lot of other water bourne pathogens that could easily be used to better effect.
The above information is freely available in open publications should you need it.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
How about population reduction???
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