Topic: IV Antibiotic treatment vs Oral: I need your input
duskfire
Unregistered
posted
Can those of you who have done both oral and IV antibiotic treatments please tell me the positives and the negatives of IV treatment vs Oral antibiotic treatment OTHER than the cost, which I already know differs greatly.
I am asking for you to speak more to the side effects in both situations, worse, better, different, etc. as well as how quickly you noticed symptoms subside or heal or cure with oral vs antibiotic, etc...
And very specifically if I could: for those of you who have muscle pain/nerve pain, TINNITUS, and memory/speech issues (finding words, word replacement, etc) how did those improve, get worse, etc, with both types of treatments.
Thank you so much for your input, your help and your time.
posted
Good question, Duskfire! I'd like to know people's experiences with oral v. IV, too, especially with regard to the muscle/nerve pain.
Posts: 33 | From New York | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
It would depends on your symptoms, how long you have had it and just how ill you are. My LLMD told me he has seen just as good improvements on Oral than I.V. I guess the downside of I.V would be the inconvenience of a line in your arm/chest and the risk of getting infection from it. I think a good LLMD would decide whether you would need it or not.
Posts: 263 | From UK | Registered: Mar 2006
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david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3662
posted
The only difference in side effects is that IV has a reduced level of GI/stomach side effects. With IV you do not deposit the antibiotic directly in the stomach (where is is absorbed) so thing like nausia are reduced or eliminated with some antibiotics.
IV can be more painful, both with the catheter and the administration.
In general IV is reserved for those that do not improve very well on orals and some very bad cases of neuro or heart involvement.
In terms fo ease of use, orals are by far the best .
IV has a guaranteed concentration of delivery to the body, whereas orals may have different delivery concentrations due to absorption differences caused by other drugs and foods. The Oral dosage is typically selected to account for this problem.
Also IV will give a higher short term peak concentration than orals. This is sometimes important in cases where you want to get the drug into the brain or other areas that are not easily penetrated.
Given the choice I would prefer NOT to use IV at all.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I haven't eactly done orals yet, but I'm in the middle of a detox period after which, I will begin them.
Because of the severity of my case, I have only been treated with IV meds, and have gone through 2 rounds (one for 6 weeks, with Rocephin rx'd by a duck; and another for 4 months, rx'd by my LLMD who rx'd a ton of things). I was on Vancomycin for the first week of my rocephin treatment.
I had a ton of problems, with regards to bad reactions, with the IV medications. The first time, I almost died of anemia, and slept the entire 6 weeks. This second round, I have had the worst GI issues, that, after a month of detox, have not gone away. I also lost my hearing, and pretty much lived through my own worst nightmare. I had tubes inserted in to every hole for pictures (I have to make it sound more fun than it actually was), and had an emergency removal of my gallbladder (it's time was up). I became allergic to anything and everything, and have huge scars around my PICC line site because of my inability to find a bandage that wouldn't cause adverse reactions (I tried everything, having bandages overnighted to me because of the trouble).
I can tell you that having that IV in your arm can prove to be extremely taxing when it comes to mental health. It's a constant reminder that you're not healthy. As a female, in my early 20s, that was training for marathons and living life to its fullest before lyme, having the constant reminder that I wasn't the woman I used to be was too much. Before Lyme, I had a great and promising career at sea. Now, there's no way I'll ever reach my goal of becoming Ship's Master. No one ever told me the biggest fight I'd have was the one that I had with my inner demons.
I personally chose to have my PICC removed with the help of my LLMD. I am willing to have another one put in, if that's what my treatment calls for, but, for now, we will attempt to use just orals for treatment, once the damage from the IV is repaired.
[ 04. August 2006, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: AP ]
-------------------- Sometimes when I say �Oh, I�m fine� I want someone to look me in the eyes & say �tell the truth�
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Since I was pretty bad shape but not in a wheelchair. I have stuck with orals on and off for starting 5th year.
If I get worse plummit fast or something like that I would go Iv route.But also on Iv I would take some herbs like milk thistle to help from liver and gall bladder damage.
ps Something I forgot if you cant keep the oral abx's down ie throwup alot I would probaly do IV's me personaly.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
IV rocephin is useless if you have co-infections, and probably the best drug out there if Lyme is your only problem.
You have to take prescription Actigall and eat a lowfat diet while on rocephin to protect your gall bladder, which doctors seem to love taking out at the drop of a hat. Best to ward them off right away, before they get any ideas.
Since rocephin will clobber all your natural flora in two minutes, and those flora can take up to a year to replace, you have to take pricey probiotics and anti-yeast prescriptions like nystatin or diflucan, and stay on them long after completing your abx regimen.
Rocephin will give you a massive herx, which can sometimes hit you in a split second. So it's a good idea not to drive anywhere the first week or so (herxes often hit somewhere between Day 4 and Day 10), and have anti-inflammatories, food and water handy. Warn your friends and family you will be yelling at the top of your lungs for a few days, so they don't cart you off.
Oral abx do cure some people, and can also be taken as daily maintenance. I took IV rocephin twice, the first time for six weeks, the second time for seven months, but without treatment for babesia and bartonella it was a waste of time and money. Despite what you read on here, there are many cases of people being cured of Lyme with two weeks of rocephin, but they didn't have co-infections.
Many people believe you should take a macrolide (ketek, zithromax, biaxin) and a cyst buster (flagyl, tinidazole) along with rocephin to hit the Lyme from several angles. In general, the stronger oral antibiotics produces herxes that rival what you'd have with rocephin, especially flagyl.
Unfortunately, my Lyme was so far advanced by the time of co-infection treatment that I do have to be on maintenance abx of omnicef and ketek, but I'm plotting a career shift in order to afford rocephin once again, which will probably nail the Lyme now.
If you have this option, my personal non-medical take would be to start with ketek, flagyl, and either omnicef or ceftin, along with anti-yeast and liver support. You will herx to your heart's content on ketek and flagyl, and they will reduce your Lyme symptoms to the point that co-infections will be far more identifiable. You might also check out Valtrex, which has been the key to some mysterious Lyme cases.
Once you have reduced your Lyme load, and gotten rid of stray co-infections, then it's more to your advantage to try rocephin. It will cost you less, it will not be as hard on your system, and there's a greater chance it will work.
Some common liver supports are: milk thistle, schizandra, phosphatidylcholine, NAC, CoQ10, and alpha lipoic acid. Dr. Zhang's Hepa Formula 2 also worked well for me (www.hepapro.com).
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posted
As far as Lyme treatment, IV Rocephin and IV Primaxin are the only antibiotics hubby has improved on. We did them at home ourselves and went much slower than recommended. Took 3 months to do normal 2 month dose of IV Rocephin and took 3 months to do normal 1 month dose of IV Primaxin.
With the Rocephin, hubby developed hepatic encephalopathy from overgrowth of Klebsiella and other bad G.I. bacteria which caused elevated blood ammonia. From the Primaxin or his Babesia meds he now has gastritis, duodentitis and gastric ulcers. He took all the supportive herbs and probiotics etc but still had G.I. issues. Could not tolerate any of the orals he has tried due to G.I. issues.
For Babesia, quinine/clindamycin rotated with amoxycillin helped symptom wise, but killed his stomach. For Bartonella, could not tolerate Rifampin, although just 20 pills cleared up his brain so he can think the best he has been able to in 5 years. Surprisingly he made it thru 3 months of Levaquin -- no symptom improvement, but it did clear up the hepatic encephalopathy.
Hubby would prefer an IV over a pill anytime. He herxes on every dose (oral or IV) of any med that helps him -- just like clockwork -- whenever the drug is at maximum dose per the package insert.
Hubby's muscle/nerve pain came during or after the IV Primaxin unfortunately. Will say that this is the drug which stopped episodes of temporary paralysis and babbling nonsense -- helped clear his brain up greatly.
Everything has tradeoffs and at this point we are pretty much ready to throw in the towel and go strictly with herbs and IV colloidal silver.
Reactions are just too different between patients to make any generalizations regarding treatments. Find a good LLMD who will work with you and hope for the best.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
IV for me saved me because my neuro problems where so bad. I never did rochepin and am glad I didn't because of the side effects. But the 2 years oral following the IV was also very important too. But terrible hard on my stomach.
So for me it was a combination of both. Everyones so different this is a hard question to answer . I think best answered by an experienced LLMD according to your individual needs.
Please make sure to talk over everything first with your LLMD
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Some people are going in between the oral and the IV routes by getting weekly or more injections of I think, Ketek.
Anyone have any experience with this?
Also, Liz28 thanks - this is the first mention I have seen of Valtrex. I had a very good experience with Valtrex but it is very expensive. Any more info on that product would be appreciated, too. thx and cheers, *Bit*
Posts: 116 | From Bisbee, AZ USA | Registered: Sep 2005
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