posted
Hi folks - I know that the general information out there re. lymes is that only the deer ticks carry lymes and the tick has to be attached 24 hours or more in order to become infected.
There are people that say that neither of these is true.
I am curious if there is any research on this - something I can read and show others?
I talked to a 15 year "researcher" at Westchester Medical Center affiliated with New york medical college, which I understand does muchlymes research....she empatically said that dog ticks do not carry lymes, and ticks must be attached over 24 hours......seems like the jury is still out...?
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I can't show you any medical articles- however, I can swear to you that I became sick after I knocked a deer tick from behind my ear- I think that it nipped my finger...there was an, "ouch" moment...
I did not have to remove it It couldn't have been on my for much longer than an hour-
Before lyme, I was fit and healthy, didn't take antibiotics, stayed away from dr's... I don't fit any hypochondriac profile
There is no doubt in my mind that lyme can transmit in minutes, if not seconds!
I am not a dr- not a researcher- but it makes sense doesn't it...it only takes a jab from a needle to get all sorts of nasty things- why would it take 24 hours??
best of health Sarah
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SForsgren
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posted
I disagree. Several ticks, mites, mosquitoes, nats, spiders, etc. have all been shown infected with Borrelia. There are also plenty of reported cases of attachment far less than 24 hours resulting in infection with LD. This has been discussed at many conferences.
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Sammi
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posted
Hi mceline. There are eight different ticks that can transmit disease. There are several infections that ticks can transmit besides Lyme disease. There are good descriptions of them in the book "Everything You Need To Know About Lyme Disease (2nd edition)" by Karen Vanderhoof Forschner.
I believe that tick attachment time is irrelevent. The tick that bit me was attahced for three hours at most, and it transmitted five diseases!
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5dana8
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david1097
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posted
At the risk of having someone else violently disagree with me I will provide my opinion on the subject for what its worth.
I think the "deer" tick as THE carrier refers to the ability of the lyme organism to be passed from one generation to the next of the deer tick. It may also be that the deer tick is the largest vector of Lyme simply because it is the most prevelently infected in the endemic areas with the result that it is considered as the "only" vector in terms of risk management.
In addition there remains the question of viability from one generation to the next and it is true that it has been proven with the deer tick, it has not been proven for other ticks.... but that does not mean it is not possible. I myself would only accept as conclusive proof of transmissability either a labortory study that infected the particular ticks and observed followup generations to see if the offspring were also infected OR to capture Tick Larva of known species and observe the nymph for the disease. But That is my way of doing things, you may disagree.
There is also the issue of second bite from a insect that was infected from the first bite. This is a known issue for a number of diseases that have jumped across the ocean, primarily in mosquitoes. The issue with ticks is of course that ticks only feed a very limited number and widely spaced points in time after which they drop off the host. This limited number of bites and the limited probability of the first bite being from an infected animal significnatly reduces the probability of getting infected this way, particularly if you have only been bitten once. To my knowlegde ticks do not drop off one animal after feeding then immediately start to feed on another.
Again this low "second bite" probability places this vector in the "not viable" category from a risk assement point of view but is still possible and I am sure that some animals get infected this way. Once an animal resorvoir becomes infected via this means, the probability increases a lot that people can get it from the second or third bite of the tick.
In terms of the attachment time one has to consider that the bacteria undergoes a significant change when it is exposed to fresh blood and that to do this as well as to transmit sufficient quantity of bacteria to start an infection, a break in the skin will lilely be needed needed. The area where fingernails emerge from the skin is also a vulnerable area as this is weak spot in the skins barrier. These are the factors working against spontaneous "contact" infection (which some propose is possible but for which I have reservations about).
Working in the favour of "contact" infection is the fact that the bacteria are everywhere in the insect as the hemolymph is infected (this is how they see if the insect is infected with Lyme). This in THEORY means that anything that comes in contact with this fluid can possibly be infected, including small skin abrasions. This can be made worse if the bug is crushed with your fingers, particulalry if there is a cut or hang nail on them.
As far as attachment time required for infection, this an area that has been investigated in animal studies but still there are some questions that can be asked about the experimental technique (in particular how the animal was deemed infected or not infected), one can say that the studies thus far show that it requires 24 hours of tick attachment but this does not guarantee that this that this long is always needed. (besides 24 hours sounds like a nice round number that sort of fit in some data...).
To get an idea on small a quntity if infective organism is needed to start some infections, the Ebola virus can infect a person with less then 10 viral particles. I do not know the quantity of lyme that is needed.
I suppose that what i am saying is that the state of the art says that 24 hr of deer tick attachment is needed for a high risk if infection but this does not mean that infection is not possible outside of these parameters.
Something else to consider is the fact that bacteria can morph as a result of the animals and insects that act as their host. This is well known for bartonella and I beleive that there will be a paper out shortly to show that this also occurs with lyme. It may be that in other species of ticks (like the lone star) perhaps this morph has occured due to the tick and the prefered host.... Thus Masters disease... Dog tick with DogLyme? maybe... maybe not...
I would be concerned about other diseases that are proven to be viable in dog ticks. From a probability perspective these are higher risk and one would normally look at these first. Unfortunately, many of these DO NOT have reliable testing and many ARE NOT understood so in many ways you could be in a worse situation than lyme if you get infected with one of these things.
Sorry that I can't give a straight answer. I Can't because one has to use the information that is avaialable but not rule out the other possibilites, still one CAN come up with a risk assesment and make a decision as to likelyhood of certain things occuring based on VERIFIED information that is availalble. If someone does not beleive the verified informaion then so be it, but the burden of proof is on them.
Life is a world of probabilities....
Will I have a heart attack and die... there are risk probabilities for this
Will I get hit By a car... There are risk probabilities for this also
Will I get hit by a meteorite... And there are risks probabilities for this too
Will I get Lyme from a Dog tick that was not attached for 24 hours... And Yes there are probabilities for this... and from what your other contacts that you mentioned are saying it is pretty low.... BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE.
Any critical comments should NOT be sent to me via PM.
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by mceline:
I am curious if there is any research on
I talked to a 15 year "researcher" at Westchester Medical Center affiliated with New york medical college, which I understand does muchlymes research....she empatically said that dog ticks do not carry lymes, and ticks must be attached over 24 hours......seems like the jury is still out...?
First lighten up Zman are you herxing?
A little logic spirochetes are in the ticks saliva and so is coccoid forms. What makes these great your words "researcher" think that when a tick numbs you with its saliva and also injects you with a immune suppressor that it takes 24 hrs to get it transmitted? these same researches in there mighty cubicals also said it had to be attched for 72 hrs then 48hrs then now 24 hrs duh.
Hek as soon as they break skin your tagged if it has lyme. And dont forget the other tick transmitted diseases
And out of these spirochetes mentioned in above link Borrelia burgdorferi is the most equiped it has more dna than any other germ.
One of the most striking features of B. burgdorferi as compared with other eubacteria is its unusual genome, which is far more complex than that of its spirochetal cousin Treponema pallidum, the agent of syphilis. The genome of B. burgdorferi includes a linear chromosome approximately one megabase in size, with 21 plasmids (12 linear and 9 circular) - by far the largest number of plasmids found in any known bacterium. Genetic exchange, including plasmid transfers, contributes to the pathogenicity of the organism. Long-term culture of B. burgdorferi results in a loss of some plasmids and changes in expressed protein profiles. Associated with the loss of plasmids is a loss in the ability of the organism to infect laboratory animals, [b]suggesting that the plasmids encode key genes involved in virulence.
Did you know? Intracellular invasion. B. burgdorferi has been shown to invade a variety of cells, including endothelium, fibroblasts, lymphocytes, macrophages, keratinocytes, and synovium.
By 'hiding' inside these cells, B. burgdorferi is able to evade the immune system and is protected to varying degrees against antibiotics,allowing the infection to persist in a chronic state. Paradoxically, many of these scientific studies were performed and published by critics of persistent Borrelia infection.
Logic used here: Endothelium = epidermis = the outer epithelial layer of the external integument of the animal body that is derived from the embryonic epiblast; specifically : the outer nonsensitive and nonvascular layer of the skin of a vertebrate that overlies the dermis.
In other words if you damaged the tick during removal or made it spit up on you the spirochete can enter your skin.
Sexually Transmitted ??? Transmitted Through Sex? Sex Question-Serious-Adult Content Talking Transmission ? Is LD contgious via sex? Is our saliva contagious?
And:
'Candidatus Borrelia texasensis', from the American dog tick Dermacentor variabilis. Borrelia texasensis In other words lyme {borrelia} has found a way.
When we think Lyme Disease we think Borrelia burgdorferi which this is wrong. we should think:
B. miyamotoi and B. davisii affect the health of humans and other animals remain to be determined, our finding of 3 Borrelia species with overlapping life cycles in the same host in the same area shows that the ecology of Borrelia is more complex than was imagined.
The presence of species other than B. burgdorferi in a major reservoir will have to be considered in future surveys and interventions.Ya think From CDC.
Look at species Genus:
Genus BORRELIA
Name: BORRELIA Authors: Swellengrebel 1907 Status: Approved Lists Type species: B. anserina Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:266 (AL); [742]
Name: Borrelia afzelii Authors: Canica et al. 1994 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 44:182 (validation list); [5030], [5343] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: CIP 103469, DSM 10508, VS461
Name: Borrelia anserina (Type species) Authors: (Sakharoff 1891) Bergey et al. 1925 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:266 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia baltazardii Authors: (ex Karimi et al. 1979) Karimi et al. 1983 Status: New Species, Revived Name Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 33:438 (validation list); [2494], [5550] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: B"x"
Name: Borrelia brasiliensis Authors: Davis 1952 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:266 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia burgdorferi Authors: Johnson et al. 1984 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 34:496; [3297] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: ATCC 35210, B31, DSM 4680
Name: Borrelia caucasica Authors: (Kandelaki 1945) Davis 1957 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:266 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia coriaceae Authors: Johnson et al. 1987 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 37:72 Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: ATCC 43381, Co534
Name: Borrelia crocidurae Authors: (Leger 1971) Davis 1957 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:266 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia dugesii Authors: (Mazzotti 1949) Davis 1957 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:266 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia duttonii Authors: (Novy and Knapp 1906) Bergey et al. 1925 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia garinii Authors: Baranton et al. 1992 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 42:382; [4944] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: 20047, CIP 103362, DSM 10534
Name: Borrelia graingeri Authors: (Heisch 1953) Davis 1957 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia harveyi Authors: (Garnham 1947) Davis 1948 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia hermsii Authors: (Davis 1942) Steinhaus 1946 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia hispanica Authors: (de Buen 1926) Steinhaus 1946 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia japonica Authors: Kawabata et al. 1994 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 44:595 (validation list); [5141] Risk group: 1 (German classification) Type strain: HO14, JCM 8951
Name: Borrelia latyschewii Authors: (Sofiev 1941) Davis 1948 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia lusitaniae Authors: Le Fleche et al. 1997 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 47:924; [6950] Risk group: 1 (German classification) Type strain: PotiB2
Name: Borrelia mazzottii Authors: Davis 1956 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia miyamotoi Authors: Fukunaga et al. 1995 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 45:809 Risk group: ? Type strain: HT31, JCM 9579
Name: Borrelia parkeri Authors: (Davis 1942) Steinhaus 1946 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia persica Authors: (Dschunkowsky 1913) Steinhaus 1946 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia recurrentis Authors: (Lebert 1874) Bergey et al. 1925 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia sinica Authors: Masuzawa et al. 2001 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Evol. Microbiol. 51:1823; [8231] Risk group: ? Type strain: CMN3, JCM 10505
Name: Borrelia spielmanii Authors: Richter et al. 2006 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Evol. Microbiol. 56:880; [10372] Risk group: ? Comment: previously effectively published as "Borrelia spielmani" Richter et al. 2004 Type strain: CIP 108855, DSM 16813, PC-Eq17N5
Name: Borrelia tanukii Authors: Fukunaga et al. 1997 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 47:1274 (validation list); [6996], [6999] Risk group: ? Type strain: Hk501, JCM 9662
Name: Borrelia tillae Authors: Zumpt and Organ 1961 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture available
Name: Borrelia turcica Authors: G�ner et al. 2004 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Evol. Microbiol. 54:1652; [9408] Risk group: 1 (German classification) Type strain: DSM 16138, IST7, JCM 11958
Name: Borrelia turdi Authors: Fukunaga et al. 1997 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 47:1274 (validation list); [6996], [6999] Risk group: ? Type strain: JCM 9661, Ya501
Name: Borrelia turicatae Authors: (Brumpt 1933) Steinhaus 1946 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:267 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture isolated
Name: Borrelia valaisiana Authors: Wang et al. 1997 Status: New Species Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 47:931; [6951] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: VS116
Name: Borrelia venezuelensis Authors: (Brumpt 1921) Brumpt 1922 Status: Approved Lists Literature: Int. J. Syst. Bacteriol. 30:268 (AL); [742] Risk group: 2 (German classification) Type strain: no culture isolated
Thats just a few> And we are not even talking about the coinfections which are many many known But what of the species that are not being tested for???
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I know that the tick I found in my car's floorboard after a camping trip was a dog tick. A few weeks after that I got sick. I was uneducated on Lyme at the time. I didn't see a bullseye and never really tied two and two together until the neuro symptoms. Plus I thought it was only a dog tick, I thought they don't carry Lyme. I can trace classic mild Lyme symptoms back a long time though. And my father had the bullseye years ago and I grew up in some epidemic areas. I think perhaps I got reinfected with that bite.
Its hard to say for sure, because a few weeks before the camping trip I got bit by a brown recluse spider. There are many people that suspect that a spider, namely a brown recluse, gave them Lyme too. Me and anthropods and insects, I swear they are attracted to me like a magnet.
quote: Before lyme, I was fit and healthy, didn't take antibiotics, stayed away from dr's... I don't fit any hypochondriac profile
Me too, I used to avoid the doctor like the plague. I used to say why am I spending all of this money on health insurance I never use it. I never wanted to put anything, even vitamins into my body. Now its a full turn and sort of ironic and upsetting at the same time. I need health insurance badly. I use it all the time. I take so many vitamins, supplements, and abx its crazy.
The last time I went to the doctor (not my LLMD) really made me mad. He said "I am just going to erase this from your test results for disability purposes." What the heck does this mean? I am healthy and trying to scam to get SS disability. I haven't missed a day of work since getting Lyme. The stigma with Chronic Lyme and ducks is awful. Why doesn't he walk a mile in my shoes and tell me there is no chronic Lyme.
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david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
lymie tony z....
John is a good freind of mine....... I am fully aware of his past and future publications. If you carefully read what I have written you will see that I reflect what he has found.
The link you provided does not work, nor is it a likely a legally distributed copy. I have discussed the posibility of electronic distribution but the journal apparently does not allow it for recent publications.
If someone wants a copy PM me and I can mail them a paper authors copy.
For me this subject is closed.
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posted
I most appreciate any and all thoughts on these questions...this is part of learning!
And I stand corrected....lyme....just a habit to call it lymes. mceline
Posts: 45 | From mn | Registered: May 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by mceline: I most appreciate any and all thoughts on these questions...this is part of learning!
And I stand corrected....lyme....just a habit to call it lymes. mceline
Calling Lyme lymes is just sorta bothersome if we do this when speaking to people outside Lyme circles it tends to get repeated and makes us all look a little a slow.
And I think because of all the other misrepresentation we get by adlf people and ID ducks we shouldnt perpetuate the misnomer. Other than that its no big deal tomatoes tamattoes:)
Easy way not to do it is call it Bb = Borrelia burgdorferi = bore reLL ee ah : burg a door fur ee a or eye.Depending on who you speak too:D
Or call it TBI
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
The blacklegged tick, Ixodes scapularis Say (Acari: Ixodidae), has a wide geographical distribution in Ontario, Canada, with a detected range extending at least as far north as the 50th parallel. Our data of 591 adult I. scapularis submissions collected from domestic animals (canines, felines, and equines) and humans during a 10-yr period (1993-2002) discloses a monthly questing activity in Ontario that peaks in May and October.
The Lyme disease spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi Johnson, Schmidt, Hyde, Steigerwalt & Brenner was detected in 12.9% of I. scapularis adults collected from domestic hosts with no history of out-of-province travel or exposure at a Lyme disease endemic area. Fifty-three isolates of B. burgdorferi were confirmed positive with polymerase chain reaction by targeting the rrf (5S)-rrl (23S) gene.
Using DNA sequencing of the ribosomal species-specific rrf (5S)-rrl (23S) intergenic spacer region, all isolates belong to the pathogenic genospecies B. burgdorferi sensu stricto (s.s.). Nucleotide sequence analysis of a 218- to 220-bp amplicon fragment exhibits six cluster patterns and, collectively, these isolates branch into four phylogenetic cluster groups for both untraveled, mammalian hosts and those with travel to the northeastern United States (New Jersey and New York).
Four of five geographic regions in Ontario had strain variants consisting of three different genomic cluster groups. Overall, our molecular characterization of B. burgdorferi s.s. shows genetic heterogeneity within Ontario and displays a connecting link to common strains from Lyme disease endemic areas in the northeastern United States.
Moreover, our findings of B. burgdorferi in I. scapularis reveal that people and domestic animals may be exposed to Lyme disease vector ticks, which have wide-ranging distribution in eastern and central Canada.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I can't give you as much information as other people, however, I once read an article which stated that the rash was from the tick spit, which contains over 500 enzymes to interfer with the host immune system. The tick spit can transmit at time zero point of attachment and transmit disease. The issue becomes if the salivary glands are full of the diseases. Any aggitation to the tick and the spit comes flying out. So, based on that information time element would be insignificant as to development of disease. Other problem is that ticks acquire disease transovarian, meaning the diseases can be passed on generation to generation along with what the baby ticks aquire on their own. I would tend to summarize this as to anything can happen with a tick bite. We have not completed enough research to have solid answers for all scenarios. In my humble opinion, you are at risk anytime you have a bite. In my humble opinion and readings.....
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hardynaka
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posted
The tick that infected me was attached for less than 24 hours (I didn't go out in the AM, just late afernoon, and found the tick next morning).
It was my first tick bite (and only one). I developed bullseye rash in the exact point it bit me, about 7-10 days after the bite.
EM rash disappeared after abx (doxy, 2 weeks) but I got sick after, symtoms started appearing a few weeks/ months later.
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