posted
There have been a few threads discussing Lyme and whether or not it produces toxins when the spirochetes are killed. I don't have any answers for that. But I do know that Lyme disease produces neurotoxins - specifically quinolinic acid and glutamic acid.
Here are links to the relevant pages of the book, ``Health and Nutrition Secrets That Can Save Your Life.'' I have not read this book, but have read another popular book by this M.D. called ``Excitotoxins.''
Links are to the 2002 edition -- not the soon to be released 2006 ed (9/1/06 per Amazon).
Click on the link for page 8 (at the bottom of the page) - then click on and read pages 338 - 342. After reading each page click on go (on the left by the word immune) and then click on page 8 and click for the next page to be read. The arrows to advance to the next or previous pages will probably not work as Amazon limits the number of pages you can view at each visit. It may take a couple of tries to read all 5 pages.
Maybe it is the combo of quinolinic acid and glutamic acid that explains many of the neurotoxic brain effects of Lyme disease.
Based on the ``Healing Lyme'' book and hubby's experiences, I believe that the Resveratrol (Japanese knotweed source preferred) is effective for blocking quinolinic acid.
My question is, ``How do you block glutamic acid?'' The body is very effective at converting glutamine to glutamic acid. Hubby has tried the glutamine powder - he can't take this if he has active gastritis as it apparently goes thru his leaky gut and almost immediately is converted to glutamic acid in the brain. The glutamine powder causes increased tremors/myoclonus/seizure-like episodes.
He gets the same reaction if he drinks a diet soft drink or eats Chinese food (MSG) - although the reaction is delayed by 30 - 60 minutes in those cases. He also gets headaches from these substances. Before Lyme disease hubby had no problems with glutamine powder - used it to heal gastritis caused by mercury toxicity. Several amino acid tests over the past 5 years have shown elevated levels of glutamic acid.
Hubby has taken all the supplements listed in the link provided, but probably never all at the same time and maybe not in the exact doses suggested. Has anyone tried the listed supplement combo?
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Sorry I don't know too much about this. hopefully someone will respond.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
minoucat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5175
posted
Hi Bea. You always have the most interesting posts.
Other than radically increase the long distance running and endurance exercise (HA!) or do a very low-protein diet, I dunno what all would block or lower glutamine/glutamic acid, or how risky that might be.
I did find an ALS site that had some fascinating info about the PON gene, organophosphates, and induced neurological disorders with glutamine links (like gulf war syndrome and AlS). Doesn't answer your question, though: Detox Gene/ALS/Gulf War Syndrome
The ALS people seem to be doing the most research into this; they don't seem to have found anything that works for glutamine inhibition yet. I did find this site about studies into glutamate blockers: glutamate blockers
BTW, couldn't get teh amazon link to work.
best of luck
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
Didn't know that Neurontin was a glutamate blocker. Hubby did try this once while he was also on Depakote -- at the time he was having seizure-like episodes and we didn't feel the 2nd med was of any additionl benefit.
He was not on any antibiotics at the time if I remember correctly. Might be worth an experiment to try this again while taking antibiotics and see if it lessened the herx reaction.
The author of the book I linked to feels that antibiotics that kill Lyme increase levels of glutamate in the brain and that that is why some people have such severe neuro herxes.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
Thanks so much for posting the diet website. Confirms that aspartame and MSG (both concentrated) affect a person within an hour and that other food sources of glutamatic acid or aspartic acid don't affect you until 6 hours later as a result of digestion.
Hubby has always had a fast metabolism. I think if I do a diet experiment it will explain why he is usually sooooo symptomatic about 4 hours after eating.
He has been on a gluten/casein free diet for 6 or 7 years (prior to tickborne illnesses) with a few lapses -- mainly cheese. But it looks like eggs for breakfast are out and quite a few other foods.
One of the best explanations I have seen of how celiac disease really affects a person's digestion. Think I will repost this so others will see it.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
For those who can't get the links to work, the following is a direct quote from page 340 of the book, ``Health and Nutrition Secrets That Can Save Your Life.''
Neuroborreliosis
In the nervous system, the organism can cause a condition called neuroborreliosis, which appears to involve the glutamate neurotransmitter system. In fact, viral infection acts through the same mechanism.
It has been shown that the bacteria, or virus, activates microglia in the nervous system, which move around within the brain and spinal cord, seeking out the spirochetes. When it encounters them, the microglia are activated and begin to pour out large amounts of free radicals and immune chemicals (cytokines). Together these two block the uptake mechanism for the glutamate neurotransmitter.
As we have seen, elevated glutamate levels in the nervous system can result in widespread damage to neurons and other normal cells. The more intense the immune response, the greater the damage. Yet something worse can occur if the immune system is impaired.
While a normal response will end an infection quickly, a prolonged response - which is the result of an impaired or unbalanced immune system - can produce long-term damage, leading eventually to neurodegeneration. This happens because glutamate levels that remain elevated for long periods of time will cause the death of large numbers of neurons.
We also know that when activated, microglial cells themselves secrete two excitotoxins, glutamate and quinolinic acid, in large quantities. This may be why neurologic disorders are sometimes associated with Lyme disease. In essence, our own immune systems, especially if they are impaired by disease, can cause damage over and above the infection the system is attempting to cure.
In fact, quinolinic acid and glutamate account for most damage associated with nervous system infections. In addition, certain cytokines secreted by these immune cells block the binding protein for the glutamate neurotransmitter, thereby leading to an accumulation of glutamate from neurons as well. Viral encephalitis has been linked with this particular mechanism. It also emphasizes the importance of avoiding dietary MSG and aspartame.
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
riversinger
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4851
posted
Bea, Amy Yasko says that increasing GABA will help control glutamate. She feels this is extremely important in neurological inflammation.
She uses grape seed extract, pycnogenol, B-12, and plain GABA.
I tried to find a quick quote for you on this, but her info just isn't easy to dig through. I suggest you look through her websites and see what you think. She is working with genetic mutations, supplementing very specifically. One site is her general site, and teh other is one where she works with autistic kids. People with CFS are also starting to look at her protocol, which is where I heard about it.
Thanks for the links. Think I have read some of this docs work before.
Hubby takes the resveratrol (uses Japanese knotweed source rather than grape seed source). Also the pycnogenol and B-12. Can't seem to take the GABA though.
Yes I agree the antioxidants are extremely important for brain inflammation.
The IV Ativan hubby takes supposedly works on GABA, but for some reason he can't take the amino acid supplement and get the same effects. At one time Depakote was somewhat helpful -- think that also works on GABA. The neuro at the time (a very good one, but not Lyme literate) felt the Depakote was helpful because it was calming a brain agitation.
I have always thought that the reason hubby's tremors/myoclonus/seizure-like episodes do not show as epilepsy on an EEG is because they are caused by a neurotoxin. He has some abnormal EEG's and others are normal. Just like his tremors etc which fluctuate from minute to minute or hour to hour. In my opinion the levels of the toxins (quinolinic acid and glutamate?) fluctuate and cause fluctuating symptoms.
I think I will try making a few dietary adjustments per the GARD diet and also space out his supplements differently and see if he notices any difference in symptom patterns and severity of symptoms.
After his experiences with mercury toxicity before his tickborne illnesses hubby has frequently said he thought he needed some "Draino for the braino." If only it was that easy!!!!!
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
nuerotoxins??? Here is one thing to think about:
How ill are these patients? Dr. Fallon compared their pain, fatigue, duration of illness, disability and years of treatment to post surgical pain, MS, and chronic heart failure in published studies. The recognition of how common these neurological and psychiatric problems really are has been severely hampered by skewing most studies to patients with major arthritic manifestations as a requirement for inclusion. Many think it would be better to be more inclusive when defining populations to study since so many paralimbic (emotional) areas in the brain are involved in Borreliosis as well - areas such as memory and learning (carrying out brain functions while at the same time keeping the rules of the task in constant attention, i.e., perhaps Dr. Krum's past lectures directing using reverse alphabet subtraction as a meaure of executive dysfunction in Borreliosis). Other paralimbic areas are responses to sensory stimuli (often heightened), control of visceral states or autonomic functions, coordination of immune-endocrine function, and even perception of taste. A possible mechanism introduced by Dr. Fallon was that cytokines increased by persistent infection resulted in decreased hydroxytryptophan and falls in serotonin production, ultimately resulting in increased kyrurenic acid and quinolenic acid production in the brain - both of which have noxious effects on brain function. Dr. Fallon closed by drawing lines from the manifestations column to the pharmaceutical treatment column: fatigue - modafanil and buproprione, loss of interest and sleep - SSRIs, effexor, remeron, tcas; sensory overload - clonazepam, gabapentin; pain - tcas and anticonvulsants; psychological stess with education and support.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi there....new to this board but i read almost everyday...going to be tested by igenex tomorrow. But this post is of great interest to me as I have so many neuro symptoms and very high levels of glutamate and glutamic acid on my neurotransmitter tests!! and i took the test after 2 weeks of extreme glutamate restriction. I am going to look into this...and Dr Ray Blaylock's book on excitotoxins is the best! Also, the reason oral GABA doesn't give the same effect, as far as I have learned, is because it does not cross the blood brain barrier. You need to take gaba enhancing substances and aminos for the brain to produce it.
Posts: 36 | From new york | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic