Nal
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posted
Have any of you ever had a neurotransmitter test done? One of my dr's is recommending it but I don't know a whole lot about it. She says its a urine test you do at home and told me to contact some place called Neurosciences for the test kit.
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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If you still have gastritis you might want to wait awhile to do the test. If you are not absorbing protein well most likely all the neurotransmitters will be low and the results may be lower than they would be if your stomach was functioning more normally.
LymeToo,
Some docs believe that if you correct serotonin all the other neurotransmitters will balance themselves out. To do that you would need to take 5HTP and l-theanine plus resveratrol (in my opinion). Might be worth trying this route.
Don't agree with that theory 100%, but do feel that it will get you to maybe 75% closer to being in balance. This is based on hubby's experiences and is not medical advice.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nimzovich76:
Hi Nancy, yes my PCP also advised to check my neurotransmitters through the same test and lab. He'll give you a kit, the instructions are pretty straight forward.
You'll take care of sending it over the mail, it already comes prepaid for either UPS or Priority mail. The results took in my case about 10 days upon the sample was recieved by the lab.
Most of my neurotransmitters came very low. I told about this to my LLMD and he wasn't too concerned, he said those tests are not very accurate.
I have an appt with my neurologist tomorrow, we'll see what he has to said about that.
I had this done in my 4-20-06 new LLMD visit. I posted about it & the other 15-18 labs done on me all within 2 weeks of each other.
If you do a search on it, 4-20-06 new LLMD summary & lab results in the TOPIC TITLE; for ANY date, and my user no. is 6147.
you should be able to bring it up but it is LENGTHY as I typed comments in there about EVERY LAB & PAPER THEY SENT ME. Bettyg
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klutzo
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My former Integrated Medicine doc insisted on this test, and all of my NT's were 3-10 times lower than normal, except dopamine and GABA. Dopamine was too high.
He started me on tx with NeuroReplete, despite my objections that the tyrosine in it would raise my already high blood pressure, and 5HTP was dangerous for anyone with cardiac risk factors and arterial spasm. He denied both of these claims, even though the proof is readily available to anyone who does a search.
Even though I raised the dose very slowly, due to my fears, I ended up on a cardiac event monitor, unable even to walk across the room. The resulting soar in BP and arterial spasms set off a cascade of Paroxysmal Supraventricular Tachycardia episodes that could have killed me.
That is why he is my "fomer" doctor. Be very careful in fooling around with NT's.
From what I understand, these NT numbers change with every thought we have in our brains and are different from one minute to the next, which is why the test may not tell the whole story.
My doc had told me the time that the test is always done, about 10 am if I remember correctly, was the most stable time of day.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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tabbytamer
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posted
I was looking over that Neuroscience site. I have concerns over the fact that urine tests are shipped unprotected from temperature.
Wouldn't that affect readings?
I'm thinking of when you have a 24 hour cortisol test and have to keep the urine cool the whole time and also while on its way to the lab.
Another thing to remember is that often times with these set ups where the lab also sells the supplements, the ordering doctor can get a commission off the fees of the labs and/or supplements. As the patient, I would want to be sure that onlythe absolute necessary tests are ordered.
Also of note at that site: Yes, they "take" Medicare toward lab fees. However, they indicate that they still bill the patient for the difference between what Medicare pays them and what they charge for the tests. This could get very expensive.
posted
My neuro science lab test for urine & hormonal balance was $339.00. This is ONE of the labs that BCBS recently denied me VERBALLY last Thurs. Bettyg
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henson2
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Yes, I had this test, too, from Neuro Science labs (I think the lab is in Wisconsin). Everything came back super low except for GABA.
My PCP and Endocrinologist laughed at this test. But then Endocrinologists only test for "disease" states, not low or high w/in normal, that could still be causing a person symptoms and distress.
The mainstream endocrinologist was very adamant that only an ACTH challenge test would accurately test the adrenals. (Not sure if this is also for neurotransmitters). But I've read some opinions that saliva tests show you what's happening in the cells, whereas blood levels only show what happens to be free-floating.
The company does sell the remedies (products like Serene Plus, etc., and pretty expensive! ) but at least my integrative Dr. did not tell me to treat with their products.
I find all of this extremely confusing.
Posts: 1067 | From East Coast | Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:Originally posted by seibertneurolyme: LymeToo,
Some docs believe that if you correct serotonin all the other neurotransmitters will balance themselves out. To do that you would need to take 5HTP and l-theanine plus resveratrol (in my opinion). Might be worth trying this route.
Thanks Bea!
Nancy....I would be very cautious too about doing the neurotransmitters. I have it from very good sources that it indeed causes increased stomach pain in some people. Guess who THAT would likely be!?
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jill E.
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posted
My LLMD had me do the urine test through Sanesco Labs. He did it upon my request because of the onset of tremors, myoclonic jerking, inner vibrations, cranial nerve twitching, etc. etc. - symptoms I had not had until two years into treatment. However we think it might be Bartonella because suddenly that's testing positive and we've always suspected it.
Several of my neurotransmitters were low, including GABA and dopamine that could affect the tremors, etc. But my LLMD said mine were much better than many Lyme patients - my serotonin was normal for example.
My internist, who has been open to learning about Lyme through me, said the recommended supplements might help me feel better. But he also made the comment that neurotransmitter levels can change from day to day.
I think I will order the supplements and give it a try.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nal
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posted
Thanks for the input guys. Its something to put on the back burner once I recover from the gallbladder surgery this week. You see I have a friend who has completely made a great recovery from Lyme thanks to her neurotransmitter testing and supplements.
She also had a terrible stomach problem but it did clear up for her.
I have horrible problems with bi-polar issues. One thing I do know for a fact--when I was on SSRI's, I had very little stomach problems. When I quit, BAM, they all came back!!!! Makes me wonder if there is a connection ya know?
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Hubby has had amino acid tests from MetaMetrix and also neurotransmitter tests from NeuroSciences. These were done at different points in time. If you have the money you can do both types of tests.
Amino acids will basically measure how much is being absorbed from protein foods -- can test for 20 essential amino acids or 40 amino acid test panel which includes nonessential amino acids (could also indicate conversion defects). This is a measure of the supply side or building blocks for the neurotransmitters. Can test blood or urine. There are numerous labs which do this testing.
Neurotransmitter tests measure the end result -- what is left over after the amino acids are metabolized.
The missing step is what is actually used by the body -- no way to measure this.
Generally anyone with digestion problems or on psychotropic drugs most likely has some amino acids or neurotransmitters that they are deficient in.
The other important point to make is that certain nutrients are needed to convert the amino acids into neurotransmitters. The most important are B vitamins although each specific amino acid has unique requirements.
I feel that this is an area where an experienced doc makes all the difference. Also, you need to really pay attention to your body. The supplements can take effect very quickly if you are extremely deficient or have very little effect if you are closer to normal range.
Some docs try to fix everything at once and others try to target one neurotransmitter at a time. I feel the second approach is more effective unless you are extremely deficient in which case a good protein powder supplement would probably do just as much good as the more expensive individual supplements.
The one drawback to oral supplementation with amino acids is that the directions almost always say to take on an empty stomach. The supplements can be very irritating to the stomach.
Hubby has done IV amino acid supplements -- it was a combination of the 8 most essential ones I think. This was several years ago when he had lost 30 pounds and had really bad gastritis. Docs do not usually do it, but individual amino acids can be supplemented by IV as well -- not sure exactly what all is available -- most likely would need to come from a compounding pharmacy.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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SSRI's try to keep serotonin in the brain. Serotonin in the G.I. can cause nausea -- most anti-nausea meds block serotonin in the gut.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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5dana8
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posted
Is serotonin similar to melatonin?
And does phenegran block the serotonin in the gut?
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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GiGi
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posted
If you want to educate yourself a bit more about the intricate neurotransmitters, do this test here. It costs only 20 minutes of your time. For interpretation of the results and more detailed explanation of this subject, get the paperback online "The Edge Effect" by Eric Braverman, M.D. and/or "The Healing Nutrients within" by the same author. About $10 per.
The books are written for teaching and learning. The test is rather amazing.
It is a clinic of some sort that made the test available online (free). The same test is contained in the Edge Effect. But it is much easier to complete on computer.
A great aid for neuro symptoms, etc. associated with Lyme, etc. that my doctor recommends to many Lyme people is Mucuna powder. If anyone is interested, I will pull out his writings on Mucuna and post.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I have to reply to you Gigi, because a couple o months ago I spent a WHOLE bunch of cash to
go see this DR BRAVERMAN guy. This was by far and away, the ABSOLUTE WORST experience I have
EVER had in a physician's office. He may have some great info to write in his books, but I
NEVER recommend him to anyone. The story is a bit long and traumatizing for me so I'll leave
it for another day but he did not even seem to acknowledge the fact that lyme could be the root
of many neuro symptoms. PURE DUCK in my very humble opinion. AND BTW, this guy is not a
1/100th as INTEGERATIVE as he says. They herd paying cattle in there and squeeze out all they can.
Posts: 36 | From new york | Registered: Jul 2006
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Neurotransmitters supposedly change constant to adjust to what you are even doing from sleeping to work.
They know so little according to top neurologist. Plus believe we have 100 or more working all time. We only know of main ones found,really not that long ago enhancing certain illnesses. As FM/Parkinson's/MS/etc. What ever heck want to call it.
We know we definitely have neuro problem, just what needs adjustment & when?????That is problem with taking something we are not sure about.
After tested we may walk out & it already has changed. Why INHO, we many have same problems, but 1 thing works on another not you. Also how do we we know when it regulates or changes???? So many of us change from hr. to hr. our symptoms.... Right now save your money for something else.
I have spent way too much on NOT getting well trying everything.... Only now to be worse than ever, not for sympathy alone on all this. Not easy for us with no help then no $$$$$. We wasted. Wish taken trip to Tahiti, spent on massage etc. Take Care, Good Luck,Kerry
Been away awhile, pretty bad shape all & all... Sorry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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5dana8
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Bea "SSRi'S keep serotonin in the brain...serotonin in the GI can cause nausea-most anti-nausea meds block serotonin in the gut"
Oh My Gosh!
Is Doxepin a SSRI'S?
I stopped my 50 mg doxepin at bedtime after 15 plus years on it about the same time I became violently nauseated. for the last 5 moths.
Could this be the cause?
Am I interpreting this right?
I am zooned from my phenegran. Only thing that works
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Doxepin is a tricyclic antidepressant not a SSRI but it's still an antidepressant so I think it's possible.
Posts: 340 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Dana, Nausea is a common side effect of Doxepin (a TCA antidepressant). The nausea is usually experienced early on, unusual to have it begin 15+ years into treatment.
Unless there was a change? Did you increase your dose, or perhaps take a medication that increased the blood levels of Doxepin.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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Hubby took Doxepin for 8 1/2 years to decrease nausea/dry heaves. He took a very low dose -- less than a child's dose I think. In some foreign countries per one gastroenterologist Doxepin is routinely used for irritable bowel syndrome.
He stopped this when he developed a dizziness problem. The PCP discovered he was deficient in B12 -- probably due to the Doxepin (mildly decreases stomach acid).
PCP switched hubby to a mild (half normal dose) of a beta-blocker. This controlled G.I. symptoms for a year (works on the vagus nerve also). Hubby developed cold extremities and since B.P. had always been normal PCP suggested hubby stop the beta-blocker.
Within a month hubby started having nausea/dry heaves. During the second month he went from having mild muscle twitches to having a Parkinsonian tremor. Retried Doxepin, but did not work on G.I. symptoms and caused dizziness.
After about 30 meds and 6 months later, found elevated mercury levels. Chelation stopped all G.I. and neuro symptoms.
Then when 90% recovered (about 9 months into chelation treatment) hubby apparently got bit by a tick. 3 months later he went out of work on disability and now it is 5 1/2 years later.
What I have learned from all this -- any med taken long-term can deplete nutrients and may even change the way the body functions. At least that is my opinion.
The connection between the two illnesses -- mercury and tickborne illnesses both interfere with acetylcholine although in somewhat different ways.
Hubby probably had mercury issues long before they were diagnosed, but in my opinion the Doxepin was somehow compensating for the interference with acetylcholine -- mercury blocks the nerve receptors for acetylcholine.
Melatonin is produced from Serotonin.
Compazine and Phenergran block serotonin in the gut I think if I remember correctly. Zofran acts differently -- it works on the chemical nausea center in the brain and is frequently used by chemotherapy patients.
Have you tried B12 shots? A severe deficiency of B12 can cause atrophic gastritis I think. When hubby was actually deficient in B12 these did help with nausea.
And yes, one "brilliant" (NOT) psychiatrist suggested hubby retry Doxepin once again early during tickborne illness. Next morning after 1st dose hubby fainted for the first time so that ended that experiment.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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5dana8
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Gosh Bea
I can't thank you enough for sharing. Your hubby is really lucky to have you cause your so kind
and cause you are so smart too.
Good idea with the b12 injections!
My docs won't give me B12 injections because they tell me my levels are too high already. Can't believe this.I did b12 in the 90"s and it seemed to help alot with energy.
Very very interesting about the vagus nerve & melatoin & seratonin & doxepin ect.. Sorry he had to stop the doxy since it helped for 8 years with his nausea-
but into the pit with the duck that had him re-start it after knowing the recent side effects.
Do you think someday he will be strong enough to do chelation again?
Is there no way to balance his acetylcholine levels? If this is the problem.
I do hope you can find some answers. blessings
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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GiGi
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Prism, I did not suggest that anyone go see Dr. Braverman. What I said is "if you wish to educate yourself about the intricate neurotransmitters, do the test and read the book."
The books have given me a mountain of information that I was never able to gather basically in one place and understand before. Since I am 100% convinced that our thoughts and actions immediately change our body chemistry and thereby affect our state of health, I found the test (to be done on the computer) to be really an eye opener.
I understand from a group of very reputable doctors that they follow some of Braverman's line of thinking and have great success. But these are doctors who do integrative medicine, not just biochemical adjustments while forgetting other aspect of disease-causing conditions of patients.
I have learned via Dr. K. a long time ago when I was first consulting him:
It always starts with feelings, with a perception in the mind. These then create a cascade of electric phenomenon down the Autonomic Nervous System; neurotransmitters are released and go into the bloodstream, and they go back to the brain. They make us feel the way we are feeling. What actually causes us to feel is chemistry, but it's not created in the brain; the brain is actually receiving it. It is created in the body, and the brain is actually a receptor, it's not the one creating it.
Number 1. The mind. Number 2. The Energetic Systems. The Autonomic Nervous System (being the most understood one). Number 3. Biochemistry, which is part of the Physical Body.
Practicing biochemistry alone is not holistic medicine nor alternative medicine nor integrative medicine. Very important aspects that make and keep health are missing.
Sorry you did not find at Bravermans what you had expected.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Nal
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So why is it that when I am on certain SSRI's that I will actually feel better stomach wise???
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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Nal, The side effect profiles of the SSRIs vary, celexa was touted when it first came out for being effective but not having as significant side effects such as nausea and sedation that the others have. Paxil is suppodely most sedating and associated with the most weight gain, the list goes on...
In reality, the side effects vary from individual to individual.
One psychologogist described the SSRIS as make - you don't know what will suit you until you try it on.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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5dana8
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Thats a good question Nal!
For what its worth I took my doxepon last night and this morning I am less nausated!
I will take it for a week & see if it makes any difference and will let you know.
This is what my "the Pill Book" has to say about the doxepin
" tricyclic antidepressants block the passage of stimulant chemicals-norepinphrine and/or serotonin-in and out of nerve endings, repoducing a sedative effect. They also counteract the effects of neurohorme ACETYLCHLONINE"
Yes, You read that right "Acetylchonine"
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yeah...you know it's interesting that esteemed individuals think so much of these "questionaires" that Braverman considers diagnostic tests. I spent unbelievably stressful hours in that office filling out every single one.
I guess he basically puts the answers into some computer program and determines EVERYTHING about a person. Funny how everything he confronted me with when I finally had my "consult" with him at the end of these agonizing hours seemed nothing like me.
This supposed consultation during which all he did was interrupt me and talk AT me and tell me how bipolar i was....My boyfriend was so beside himself that I thought he was going to hit the guy.
He even had the nerve to imply that my 2 year long bout with my visual disturbances and anxiety and dizziness, among a million other symptoms, may be because my life lacked RELIGION.
He also wondered why after 7 years together my boyfriend and I were not legally married. Because these things are so much his business.....???????????
All this in just 10 minutes of meeting me....then since he did not want to deal with any fear and questions about the prescriptions he wrote out for Klonopin and Tegretol...2 different anti-seizure meds....without any eeg i might add...he passed me off to his assistant telling me that she handles patients better than he does.
Lovely....I practically had to get on my knees and beg the "financial" woman to give me back at least $800 of the 1875 they put on my card for the tests they had not yet done that day. And that was after they dropped the price from $5000. Then she gave me serious attitude and told me to leave her office.
I left there crying my eyes out and 1875 poorer. If anyone listens to his radio shows, you will hear how they are basically and infomercial for PATH medical...he has a serious God complex.
Maybe his books are wonderful, but his diagnostic surveys with hundreds of questions sure seem like junk science to me. I feel sorry for those who are so vulnerable and ill that they get taken for this traumatizing ride. He should seriously consider another profession, like selling used cars.
Anyway, this is not a personal attack on your opinion Gigi, because I wish I would have read something like this before I mad the decision to subject myself to such treatment.
Oh...and just for the record, I had 3 of my friends do the online test and all three got the result that: nutritional supplements probably will not help them and they need medications to get well...so much for aminos and inositol!!!
Heidi
Posts: 36 | From new york | Registered: Jul 2006
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5dana8
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Just an update:
I have been on a low dose doxepin, every other night for over a week. And so far the nuasea is cut in half.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Nal
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posted
What is Acetylchonine?? Im gonna ask my dr about doxepin. Im ready to try something. The pamelor isn't doing squat.
Bea, you mentioned that it can decrease stomach acid slightly too? I wonder then if that would help with the burning pain? Interesting.
Dana,
I am so glad you are starting to feel better-keep it up girl!! If I find a drug that works, ill never go off of it again.
Nancy
-------------------- Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!
-Chuck Swindoll Posts: 1594 | From Colorado | Registered: Jan 2005
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5dana8
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Nal
I am still a little unsure about the role of acetylchonine, if it is the same as plain choline.
But Lyme & the co-infections rob the body of choline. I believe if my faulty lyme brain is working that marine has posted alot about this.
A natural replacement for choline are egg yolks. Dr.P.K. says its something like one egg yolk a day is supposed to be equal to 3 whole eggs.. The whites somehow decrease the amount of choline available.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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