posted
Just posted this to the lyme-and-rife group, thought some people here may find it interesting:
We know there are 3 forms of Lyme bacteria which all must be addressed one way or another:
1. Spirochetes 2. L-form 3. Cyst
1. Spirochetes can be both easiest or hardest to treat depending on what you do.
Easy: Use rife machines and ABSOLUTELY AVOID cell wall inhibiting antibiotics (amoxicillin and cephalosporins) - some use of other antibiotics is OK (discussed later - it is proven that some other types of antibiotics are safe in this respect and do not cause conversion), but absolutely must avoid cell wall inhibitors as these cause spirochetes to convert to cyst and L-form. Also, it is important to take breaks from ALL antibiotics at certain times. These breaks allow dormant bacterial forms to activate to active forms and be killed by rife therapy.
Hard: Disregard above advice and use cell wall inhibitors and/or use antibiotics continuously and/or do not use rife at all. If you do this, you will probably never get well.
2. L-form bacteria have been a pesky problem up until the Marshall Protocol in my opinion. Protein synthesis inhibiting antibiotics (tetracyclines [tetracycline, doxycyline, minocycline, demeclocycline] and macrolides [biaxin, zithromax, roxithromycin] and ketolides [ketek] and lincosamides [clindamycin]) have traditionally been used, but with poor results due to unknown (??) factors. Theoretically these should work well on L-forms. A bonus is that they do not cause cyst conversion. However, they just haven't worked. Certain mysterious factors render them ineffective. That is, until the Marshall Protocol, which I believe has identified those factors and led to greatly optimized use of these antibiotics (protein synthesis inhibitors are at the heart of the Marshall Protocol - the other aspects of the protocol simply render said antibiotics more effective). With the introduction of the Marshall protocol, L-form bacteria seem to yield to protein synthesis inhibiting antibiotics, evidenced not only by increased herx reactions, but also by major improvement in symptoms, and even more convincingly, these results obtained with relatively minuscule doses of protein synthesis inhibiting antibiotics, which proves that the Marshall Protocol idealogy does in fact amplify effect of protein synthesis inhibitors.
Yet, some people do not respond favorably to the Marshall protocol, so I must admit that there is still a lot unknown and these thoughts represent only a working hypothesis and not a concrete process. Still, the hypothesis is gaining momentum and backing in my opinion. Surely it will change, though.
The only caveat with regard to the Marshall protocol that I believe is to take breaks from it (Dr. Marshall disagrees). I think breaks are necessary for two reasons: first, and most importantly, to break from antibiotic therapy so as to allow dormant forms to become susceptible to rife therapy.
(This brings up the relentless contradiction at the center of this working hypothesis: How can it be good to use antibiotics (to kill bacteria) but also be bad (due to conversion to cyst/dormant forms)? This is sort of a push-pull problem, rife pulls, antibiotics, push, and it would seem logical that the two should not get along together and should not be used together. Despite this logic, and despite this contradiction, it is still true that the two can work together as teammates. Who knows why?)
Second reason for breaks from Marshall, and also important, to allow breaks from Marshall protocol drugs which can be toxic over time. Also, certain components of the Marshall protocol should be used continuously without breaks, namely, avoiding vitamin D and sun exposure. People who sternly disagree with the foundational concepts of vitamin D and sun exposure probably have either not used the protocol or have not benefited from it, because those who have benefited from it clearly know how much better they feel when these points are followed.
3. Cyst form. There are a couple different ways to look at treating the cyst form. First, cyst form antibiotics (5-nitroimidazoles [Flagyl, tinidazole, secnidazole, ornidazole]). In theory this should work but in practice it doesn't work very well. So I have a "take it or leave it" attitude about 5-nitroimidazole antibiotics - if they help you, they probably are okay, but I do not think they make a big difference in the long run. They are probably still worth using for an initial short course after which they could be used periodically.
The second way to look at treating the cyst form is unique to rife therapy philosophy (there is no other treatment in the world that I know of that accomplishes this) and that is to completely leave the cysts alone, and allow them to slowly convert into active bacterial forms (spirochete and/or L-form?). We do know that they may this conversion if they are not threatened by antibiotics. The conversion typically occurs after stressful events and/or during season changes (especially spring and fall) and/or after other illnesses and/or according to some other mysterious time frame. As cysts convert to spirochetes, they are killed by rife therapy. This is the core principle of the rife therapy recovery process that leads to permanent improvement and not suppression of bacteria.
-
So, since I wrote my first book, my thinking has changed as you can see, and I can agree with the people who posted about antibiotics having a place in the recovery process. Although I agree that have a place, I think there are certain rules which must be followed such as absolutely, at all costs, avoiding cell wall inhibitors, and, taking breaks from antibiotics, and, if at all possible, utilizing the Marshall protocol.
Individual differences in different peoples' body chemistry and possibly different strains of infection are also extremely important. They also make it difficult for us to relate to each other - in some ways we speak different languages because our experiences and beneficial treatments can be different. It is important to recognize this because by recognizing it, we are less likely to be confused and consternated by it.
Probably the most important factor in the recovery process in my opinion is time. If you do most of the right things and avoid most of the wrong things, you will get better and better and better. Unfortunately, this process can be very slow, which leads to doubt and second-guessing. If you can somehow accept the long recovery process and this seasonal variations and flareups, everything will be a whole lot easier. Of course, eventually, there may be some magic pill that cures you overnight. Until then, I just don't know of any way to get over chronic Lyme disease quickly.
I have always been quite interested in Rife machines, but here in the U.K I don't know anyone who uses them.
However, I have found a doctor who is very interested in them, and I think he is going to buy one. Is rife safe? I don't understand it very well.
I started Oxytetraycline 5 weeks ago and I am adding Flagyl soon. How often do you think we should take breaks from antibiotics, and for how long? I plan to add Samento, Cumanda, Noni and Burbur when I am over the herxing from the Oxy and Flagyl, and IF this doctor does get one and starts treating people, I may well try rife.
Posts: 263 | From UK | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
"So, since I wrote my first book, my thinking has changed as you can see, and I can agree with the people who posted about antibiotics having a place in the recovery process."
How did it change? Your book already provides a guideline to using antibiotics. I followed the guidelines almost to the letter and it worked perfectly. I guess I'll have to read the post a couple more times, maybe I missed something.
All My Best, Scott
-------------------- BTW - I am NOT a medical professional - just speaking from MY own personal experience. Posts: 266 | From Philadelphia | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Im upset and scared now.I have been following Dr Cs abx protocol and I am on ceftin right now and it is getting rid of some symptoms.I dont want to go on the MP right now.Help RG
Posts: 140 | From Texas | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Can you get better using a rife machine without following the MP? I'm interested in looking into rife as a possibility for my dh's lyme disease.
I don't feel we've gotten very far with antibiotics and with the doctor's in disagreement as to what protocols to follow, I'm thinking it's time to look into other alternatives.
BTW, our current LLMD does not believe in using the cyst busting antibiotics as he feels that the cystic form is dormant and not bothering anyone so why bother them (or something to that effect).
Posts: 160 | From Abington, PA, USA | Registered: May 2005
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NP40
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6711
posted
Folks, just so you know that many of these alternative therapies are directed at "chronic" lymies.
We have loads of newbies here who are just starting treatment and in no way have a real grasp on this thing.
By stating that you'll never get better on abx, or herbs is the only way, or rife, or salt & C, or oxygen therapy, etc., etc., is confusing and disheartening to many new members.
For the record, hundreds of thousands of people have gotten over lyme and co-infections by taking abx. This board boasts over 10,000 registered posters yet only a couple hundred post at any given time. Why ? The other 9800 have gotten better and gone on with their lives.
The vast majority of newbies here will do the same.
Bryan is a well respected and knowledgeable poster and I don't mean to single his thread out but this is a reoccuring trend I've seen on this board for a while. I think it would be beneficial for folks to know that many here are in a chronic state and trying alternatives after many years of frustrating dead ends.
Please know that this is the exception and not the rule. Radio Girl, have faith in Dr. C's treatment, he's surely one of the best lyme doc's in the country. He's gotten scores of lymies back to good health.
I'm off my soapbox now. Thank you. Posts: 1632 | From Northern Wisconsin | Registered: Jan 2005
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theskyking
Unregistered
posted
Yes, that point about chronic Lyme is true. Many people do get well just fine with abx, so my comments only apply to antibiotic-refractory (eg "chronic") Lyme.
Yes to the question about whether people get well with rife alone - some do. The process is quite long however. The goal in my mind is to shorten the process. My comments are to this end. i.e., what can we do to help the rifing process be accelerated?
Scott, good point - you are right that my comments do not seem in oposition or "new" with regard to first book. Some things have changed, though, in my thinking, and your post has showed me the necessity to better clarify those items and figure out how to state them articulately.
posted
Which and what are the cell wall inhibitors? Alan
-------------------- Charter member of the ~ Delux Toasting Club ~ Our Moto: "Take No Prisoners" Posts: 95 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2005
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Foggy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1584
posted
Bryan how are you doing? In remission, I hope?
Posts: 2451 | From Lyme Central | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Danser - yes you can get better on rife without the MP.
Bryan,
"Probably the most important factor in the recovery process in my opinion is time."
Absolutely correct! I felt like giving up on many occasions but I stuck it out because I put my faith in the experiences of the people and processes you placed in the book.
You may not have it exactly right yet but you are pretty close. The MP may be beneficial, I don't know but I would also recommend talking to Marnie who is pretty close too.
One of things that is also missed by people all the time is DETOXING. It is just as important as killing. In the beginning I always knew I was killing but I really started feeling the benefits when I started cleaning out my system. That is why I am also in agreement that meds should be pulsed ( I'm not a doctor, just my opinion).
All My Best, Scott
-------------------- BTW - I am NOT a medical professional - just speaking from MY own personal experience. Posts: 266 | From Philadelphia | Registered: May 2005
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Hi Bryan,
Questions based on the post:
1) Can you list all antibiotics that you consider to be capable of causing Lyme to go into a cystic form? Are there others you did not mention?
2) How many people do you know that have gotten well with the MP? I have spoken to many doctors that treat Lyme and very few of them (1 with 1 patient) has found it to be useful as a rule. Would you still recommend the MP to someone that did not have a higher 1,25 level than 25?
Thanks. Good stuff!
Be well
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Health
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6034
posted
Hello,
I was reading in Dr B's 2005 guidelines that there is talk wether the
cyst form and the L-form are the same.
It is on page 12 of the guidelines.
Trish
Posts: 1250 | From Canada | Registered: Aug 2004
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Hi Theskyking
Do you have any favorite lyme frequencys that you could reccomend since your book came out?
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Hi, A couple of questions skyking.First I have a beam ray rife machine and it is loaned out at the moment. Are you familiar with this model?If you are what frequencies would you suggest?When you take a break from the meds do you also stop benicar at the same time or just the antibiotic?
I was on the MP for about 3 months last october-Jan.I will tell you that it delivered said effects it said it would.That being an adjustment period and herx from the low dose mino I added in increments.My problem was my family did not take my treatment seriously. I have 4 boys in college.So when I said I needed a break over the upcoming holidays due to the MP what they heard was Mom is cooking up big meals for the holidays anybody who wants to come better get in the car.You would be amazed at how many kids can fit in compact cars.So that was that.
The point is I have never had any kind of herx what so ever on minocycline until I tried the MP.WhenI began to add the antibiotic with the benicar I herxed right down to the bone!So I do feel it kills alot of the bad guys.I want to see how far I can get with DR C for awhile before I make up my mind to try that again.
Right now I am wrestling with my son who had a positive bowen test who had been suffering aches and pains and crushing anxiety for a while .I started him on Doxy and he began to herx so he is a little angry with me for rocking his world so to speak.He did some research on Bowen and ofcourse highlighted the negative comments.I told him he has some troubling symptoms a positive test result and herxed on doxy.How much more evidence does he want.
Maybe some of you guys here can maybe say a word or two about Bowen that I could have him read.Im pretty worried about him.Take Care,RG
Posts: 140 | From Texas | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Hi SkyKing, Could you also comment briefly about the rife machine, and if your views of their effectiveness have changed since your first book.
The PERL is getting great user reports, more so than the old rife-bare, but is 3-4 times more expensive than the EMEM3.
Also, there is no a prebuild Doug coil, which I haven't heard much about.
Thanks
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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geniveve
Unregistered
posted
i'm sorry but i don't understand this at all. are you saying that taking amoxy is not good for you? i've had lyme since jun 05 and have been on biaxin (which caused horrible hallucinations and i had to stop) and now amoxy.
am i never going to get well? are doctors who prescribe antibiotics crazy?
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At this point I am in the process of investigating the possible use of rife machines. The earliest citations that I found on google some long months ago dismissed it as more or less medical fraud and for a long time I have pursued it no further. However in recent months with the immense difficulties I am having with antibiotic therapy-I am on penicillin and diflucan and have had four massive herxheimer reations so severe I have had to quit everything for a period of up to two weeks-I have begun reevaluating the whold business.
While it may be of great benefit, I would warn the members that the Marshall protocol has serious inherent dangers, particularly for persons with long term lyme disease. I was on the protocol and even with severe shock reactions stayed on it until I developed gastrointestinal bleeding twice from the benicar. Gastrointestinal bleeding can kill you. Further there have been reports of people ending up the cardiovascular emergency room. Further the demands about avoiding vitamin D are simply insane to impossible, particulary if you live in the south. So I would treat the whole business with great caution.
As for the rife machine itself, my one question is what is the long term effect on the body of subjecting it to all those different electronic frequencies? If the thing can explode cells of pathogens in your body. What might it be doing to the cells in your body itself?
You will kindly pardon my skepticism. But I have burned too many times, even after very careful research and consulting other members opinions to simply go out and jump on yet another in the seemingly undending list of cures of the month.
The medical profession has failed us miserably and I do not thing that anybody else knows that much more than they do. So we are stuck. Cheers.??? Thomas Parkman
-------------------- Thomas Parkman Posts: 341 | From Columbia SC 29206 | Registered: Feb 2003
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NP40
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6711
posted
Radiogirl- Tell your son that Bowen is the real deal. Dr. Mattmann is one of the foremost authorities on lyme in the country
Genevieve- Bb infection in your brain will give you hallucinations as well, it's not that uncommon. Have you tried co-infection treatment of any kind ?
Posts: 1632 | From Northern Wisconsin | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
"As for the rife machine itself, my one question is what is the long term effect on the body of subjecting it to all those different electronic frequencies? If the thing can explode cells of pathogens in your body. What might it be doing to the cells in your body itself?"
Thomas,
16 months ago I had the same questions and doubts you have. I was worried what the machine could do to me in the future but to be honest, I really didn't have much of a future then because I really thought I was dying.
I pray that it doesn't cause any long term effects but if it does, then at least I had the last year of feeling better and enjoying life and hanging out with my family again. I have to tell you that it was the best decision I ever made.
If you want to talk about the machines, PM me your number and I'd be more than happy to talk to you about my experience. I do not sell anything. Of course, you know I am not a doctor, just someone who has been there.
All My Best, Scott
-------------------- BTW - I am NOT a medical professional - just speaking from MY own personal experience. Posts: 266 | From Philadelphia | Registered: May 2005
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
I am a newbie with the rife but since I can't stomach the meds any more
and I am allergic to the injectable's my only option(other than re-IV) was the rife.
With rife/herbs or any alternative treatment it is a very personal decision.
So far so good X aprox. 5 months. This is the longest I have gone without abx treatemnt and no real horrible neuro decline.
I don't think I would have tryed rife without first reducing my germ load with years of abx treatment.
It was a hard decision. The long term effects of rife are unknown. But I do know personally what the consqences are for me with no treatment at all, if I let the lyme run ramped. So at this point I am willing to take my chances with rife.
Again a very personal decision.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I work with a Dr. that has over 200 patients on the MP and has a working relationship with Dr. Marshall. She is big on taking breaks when the need is there. As mentioned stay on benicar but avoid sunlight and D in foods.
I was on the MP for 14 months as I was taking it for CFS. Was later diagnosed with Lyme and went to a popular doc on this board who encouraged me to get off.
It only took a couple of months to realize I was losing ground so I'm back on it and have way more energy.
When working with the MP look at setting aside about 2 years to do it. If you go to the MP website and look in recovery stories you will see lots of lyme/cfs/fm, which are all lyme in my opinion, that are posting great success stories. J
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