posted
Hello everyone. I've been batting around some thoughts that have been in my head for over a year, when someone at my lyme clinic mentioned cavitations.
I'm 22, male, and otherwise healthy (never was a sickly or allergic kid). Surely after I was infected but before my diagnosis (at the time we thought it was chronic fatigue and/or mono that never quite went away etc...), I had my wisdom teeth extracted. The surgery went along just fine, no complications. Later x-rays didn't reveal any problems. To this day, the sites never hurt or bother me.
The closest thing I have is a semi persistant TMJ like feeling in my right mandibular joint. I've had this for years, probably even prior to lyme. I ground my teeth when I slept when I was younger, and chewed a huge amount of gum, so its completely possible I did it to myself Of course, there are some that belive this is a lyme symptom so I can't rule it out entirely.
So fast forward to today. I've been under LLMD type treatment for over a year and a half with what I feel is little improvement. I've done IV vitamin C and hydrogen peroxide, been on doxy, minocycline, the marshal protocol, ketek, tindamax, zithromax, mepron, a whole host of supplements...and probably some other things I'm forgetting. Currently I'm on Alinia and Zithromax again. Havn't done the IV rocephin..thats probably next on the itinerary if nothing else makes sense.
Anyway... I was told awhile ago (by a layperson, who just happened to have a brochure with her) that it is not possible to heal from lyme if you have "cavitations", which are essentially little pockets of infected material in the jawbone. Having my wisdom teeth pulled while I was unknowingly lyme positive, pretty much gave the lyme a nice little place to live that nothing else could touch.
Apparently, there are these "biodentists" out there that use this "cavitat" machine to find the cavitations and then go back in to "clean out" the infected material. I asked my normal dentist and oral surgeon (very, very reputable guys) about this and they said to be very skeptical of those calling themselves "biodentists" and that they hadn't heard of people needing a procedure like this.
Has anyone heard about how this whole thing? Did it help you? Make you worse? If they did 'clean out" any material from your mouth did they send it to a lab? Did the lab find lyme, or anything out of the ordinary? Was it a reputable lab?
Personaly, I'm feeling rather skeptical. A "biodentist" who uses a big, expensive non-insurance covered diagnostic to do a big, expensive non-insurance covered surgery doesn't sit right with me, but I try to keep my mind open.
Is this even something to consider?
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I saw a person who is a NP that works with a natural dentist. They use a "cavitat" machine that also has a bio-feed computer device.
First of all my NP is very talanted. He uses the bio-feed part to determine if the cavatation actually has an infection that is worth needing surgery. I had my teeth scaned by the "cavitat" Yes, there were a couple of issues, on a 1 to 10 scale, 10 being bad, I had one tooth that was about a 7 for a cavitation. But when they ran the bio-feed to see what toxins levels or infections that were present, they came out in the 1.5 range. No real reason to do anything right now. My lyme infections scale out much higher in my body systems.
My LLMD also uses this NP for bio-feed testing on the lyme infections.
Posts: 582 | From milwaukee wi | Registered: May 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
Is there any evidence at all in for the formation of these phenomena in a more "conventional" dentist's journal?
Every single information link I get when I google seem to arrive from a holistic or otherwise alternative medicine website. For instance, that the healingjournal.com link has a link to a place to buy orgone generator's/power crystals on its main page.
I would think that something that has such serious and rather conventional remedies (lets face it, opening you up and debreding the infected areas isn't plesent) would have some representation in "mainstream" dentristy as well
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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You can do a search on this topic. There has been a lot of discussion about cavitations posted on this board.
I understand your confusion.
Jordan
Posts: 593 | From Miami, Florida | Registered: Apr 2004
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
I don't know if you are addressing this to me. I posted the Healing Journal article because it is a beautiful explanation of cavitations easily understood by lay people. Do a search on Lymenet as Jordan suggested, you will find a couple thousand posts from me, modstly related to teeth problems.
Pull up some of Dr. Klinghardt's published articles www.neuraltherapy.com. Especially one of them (forgot which one) includes over a thousand publications all relating to teeth/jaw and dental infections. You will find the publication of every expert in the field. You will have to make the effort to dig it up yourself. I have almost quit posting information because I get too much static from some people on this board. Nobody can lead you by the hand. If you want to get well, it takes your own initiative. Not the best doctor can do that for you -- they just don't have the time. Dr. K. used to tell me when I was still at rock bottom to do some of my own research. He invites all patients to get busy doing positive things.
I got busy and learned, and I am now perfectly fine and enjoying my life at this late stage -- I am 75 years old and cleaned the roof and skylights of our two-story house a few days ago! Less than ten years ago I was partially paralyzed, used a wheelchair, and lived in pain and a horrible brainfog. I had 12 root canals and cavitations galore.
All writings on www. Altcorp.com stem from research at the University of Kentucky, Prof. Boyd Haley. He and some of his scientists have tested before the US Congress on mercury matters (referred to as Scientists of Record).
Good things for you.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
W I S D O M T E E T H or Teeth of Misfortune (Third Molars)
Facial Pain Linked To Infections by Christopher J. Hussar, D.D.S., D.O.
For almost a century controversy has waged regarding the existence of a disease process with infectious origins within the dental alveolus. These localized infectious processes have been strongly implicated in generating facial pain including trigeminal neuralgia along with other cranial facial pain disorders including, remote pain disorders in distant regions of the body. The Father of modem dentistry, G. V. Black, recognized and gave notice in one of his textbooks to the actuality of a hollow jaw bone, housing an infectious process within the dental alveolus. A review of the literature reveals numerous papers from the early 20th century written by both M.D. and D.D.S. alike, describing the surgical debridement of jaw infections including devital teeth, and localized osteomyelitis lesions that successfully treated, not only localized facial pain, but remote pain disorders such as arthritis as well. Sir Wilfred Harris, a British neurosurgeon, proposed the reality of a chronic intra osseous infection within the alveolus causing neural degenerative changes and demyelination to trigeminal nerve branches. This was in 1926 and was widely accepted by dental surgeons in America nearly a century prior. In the early part of this century the theory of "focal disease" arose in which a chronically infected area of the body was responsible for causing pathology elsewhere. Many tonsils as well as teeth were removed with miraculous, as well as not so miraculous, results. The clinician would script an article expounding the cure of arthritis after the patient had several diseased teeth removed. Anecdotal cases of blindness reversal was documented (your author has witnessed such an event)...
Much credit must be attributed to the brilliant research of Dr. Weston Price in the early part of our century. With incredibly reproducible results, this research dentist demonstrated the existence of multiple bacterial strains in dental teeth including root canals. In addition, he addressed the chronically infected periodontal membrane and periodicular bone resulting from infected teeth and the cavitation of such chronically infected bone if thorough socket curettabe was not performed properly.
With the ``disproving'' of the focal theory by our progressively autocratic medical/dental complex, the concept of chronic dental/alveolar infections has gone practically unrecognized for the past sixty years. One of the reasons may be poor visuatlization of these chronically ``cavitated'' lesions on intra-oral radiographs. Usually housed within the cancellous bone, the cortical plates and their different x-ray absorption qualities obscure and alter the true picture lying deep within the jaw bone.
In reality, this is not the case as certain radiographic landmarks are quiate visible and will readily confirm the presence of these lesions. With continued x-ray evaluation along with curettage of a suspected lesion, they will become obvious. The above mentioned as been well documented by Jerry Bouquot, D.D.S., M.S.D., in his numerous articles on NICO (Neuralgia Industing Cavitational Osteonecrosis) lesions describing ``laminar rain,'' the x-ray visible, boney changes resemblung the rungs of a ladder. This results when the bone of the extraction site refuses to heal properly, literally leaving the root outlined. Micro calcification within the confines of the original extraction site, further confirms the presence of an inflammatory bone lesion, often referred to as a cavitation.''. In surgerizing mandibular lesions, involvement of the inferior alveolar nerve (IAN) by the obstructive process creates a characteristic appearance on the x-ray. The superior aspect of the mandibular canal, the ``roof,'' is usually eliminated and the fine, dense superior white line is seen to disappear as the IAN courses through the lesion site. Absolute certainty of course only occurs with biopsy confirmation of curettaged tissue from these lesions. With little practice and suspicion, near one hundred percent accuracy is possible when performing the surgical debridements. Perhaps our subject matter has been ignored for decades because of a failure to biopsy on the part of dentistry as a whole. Do endodontists rely on the biopsy for verification of tissue? Hardly, for my dental training down-played the role. Do oral surgeons send their extracted teeth in for biopsy along with any abnormal bone that may be removed along with those teeth? It is my policy to biopsy every tissue fragment I remove from the mouth. My judgement in determining pathology has been incorrect less than .5% of the time. Once you begin to recognize the disease, the diagnosis becomes much easier. When curetted, the contents of these intraosseous lesions may present varying types of diseased tissue. Commonly, when surgically opened, the lesion site is void of caancellous bone; thus the derivation of the term ``cavitation,'' a hollow cavity exists. Other presentations include hemorrhagic bone with easily curettaged spicules of both viable and non-viable bone. Multiple globules of adipose tissue representing degenerated bone can commonly be curettaged; in fact, **************opening up one of these lesions with a fissure burr causes an exudate not unlike bloody chicken soup with countless micelles of fat floating on the surface of the serium***************. If an area of condensing osteomyelitis/osteitis is evident on an x-ray associated with a suspected cavitational area, surgically speaking the alveolar bone will usually possess a consistency of pearl-like hardness implying condensed bone that has been made devital by ischemia. This is extremely difficult bone to surgically eliminate especially in the presence of the inferior alveolar nerve. These patients will often develop facial pain syndrome and can be difficult to treat. Microscopically most biopsy reports will demonstrate marrow fibrosis as the body attempts to regenerate itself, fibrotic material heals easier than bone. Multiple fragments of bone shard appear as the impaired blood supply cannot provide adequate flow to new bone attempting to replace diseased bone. When your patients come to you months after a difficult extraction, showing a small bone fragment that has worked its way through the gingiva, you didn't forget to irrigate it out; the body refused to nourish it and it sloughed. Lymphocytes may or may not be encountered depending on the chronicity of the infection, the immunity of the patient, nutritional status, and other factors. Neurophils, most commonly seen with acute inflammatory processes, are seen infrequently with cavitations. What is seen primarily is necrotic bone flake often intermingled with viable bone. Remarkably, very few osteoblasts or osteoclasts are observed in specimens. Most articles covering facial pain are written dealing with trigeminal neuralgia, atypical facial pain (AFP) and TMJ, with the latter two being the most common. Most of these reading this article are well-versed in the treatment of TMJ disorders. However, what treatments do you prescribe to the patient who has had 5 or 6 bite splints from other practitioners and his facial pain persists without alleviation? You must always be suspicious of a ``NICO'' process smoldering in the patient's alveolus when consulted by such a patient. ********************Their orruccurrence is of epidemic proportions; if the patient has had any third molars removed, it's a safe bet to conclude that cavitations are present. Why do they cause pain in some and not others Multiple theories have been proposed as to what mechanisms exist allowing NICO's to generate pain A general consensus agrees upon the initial development of an intra-alveolar infection from a devital tooth, root-canaled tooth, ir extraction site. This infection persists within the alveolus and can ``tunnel'' or remain localized. In the mandible, the bascula system is an end-organ type or terminal vessel allowing basically one-way flow of blood. Chronic infectious agents harboed in these cavities, namely bacteria and their endotoxins along with what appear to be viral agents causes a vasculitis in the arterial side eventually compromising the flow of blood. With the onset of ischemia other changes occur. Antibiotics are not as effectivce for they rely on a blood supply to reach their target zone. Infectious agents often will die off or become rapidly attentuated and be rarely seen in biopsy. Bone necrosis develops, the affected alveolus cannot heal properly, and a pathologice entity arises called ``NICO.'' What caused the pain?
The physiology of the trigeminal nerval is extremely complex. Peripherally, the dentin contains 30,000 to 70,000 microtubules per square millimeter! Free sensory nerve endings and dentinoblasts course through these tubules and communicate with each other and pulped nerve fibers, The pulp itself contains at best 600 t 700 nerve fibers with a majority consisting of the myelinated type. This concentration of fibers is higher than the corney making human pulp an extremely pain sensitive structure. Sensory distribution of the trigeminal nerve is extensive as it supplies the ``central computer'' with information on pain, temperature and touch impulses from most of the head, skin, face, oral and nasal mucosa and dura mater.
*******************The axonal transport mechanism is capable of antegrade and retrograde flow, nourishing the periupheral branches with antegrade flow. Retrograde flow brings bacteria, viruses, endotoxins, and other degenerated compounds that are generated by devital teeth, N's, etc., to the central nervous system (CNS) and ultimately the main sensory trigeminal nucleus and spinal trigeminal nucleus. At some point, the CNS perceives a threat based on this feedback mechanism and goes on alert.
The multiplicy and overlapping peripheral innervation (dentinoblasts, pulpal fibers, periodevital ligament fibers) further complicates the picutre by converging as it approaches the CNS. An inflamed pulp from a hot tooth could be causing impulses that are below the threshold of pain perception of the patient. Add to this, a root canal and two NICO leasions from old third molar sites and the CNS, via cranbial nerve #5, is aroused it lets the patient know there is something wrong causing pain. The pain can be intermittend and excruciating like that of trigeminal neuralgia or vague and heavy, disguised as a headache, ear pain, sinus pain or non-specific jaw pain, troublesome enough to cause suicide.**********************
Localization of these pathological ``foci'' of pain-causing disease is best accomplished by anesthetic confirmation of ``neural therapy''. This technique utilizes local anesthetic, both vasoconstrictor and preservative free, that is injected into and about the periapical mucosal area of suspect N leasions or teeth in order to ascertain their effect on the patient's perception of pain. Approximately 1/2 cc of anesthetic solution is delivered to the suspected site via 30 gauge needle. If the pain is abolished, it is with high certainty that you have found the primary lesion. If only some of the pain has been attenuated, then continued testing in other regions both ipsilaterally and contralaterally in the arches is necessary. Be suspicious of any edentulous regions.
******************* You will discover every third molar area is usually associated with a NICO lesion prior to extraction. W I S D O M T E E T H are misnamed; they are teeth of misfortune.**********************
References/I think I typed enough for now/gg
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Of course, there are some that belive this is a lyme symptom so I can't rule it out entirely. 
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