posted
Perhaps I should do this in a PM, but I suspect a lot of folks here feel as I do --- (and I suspect it may have been said before...)
You are a wonderful, incredible source of information -- and I know you like to encourage us all to think -- but ...
A good deal of what you say is lost of me because I just don't have the bioscience background for understanding it. A lot of times, I read your posts, and I wish I could get the upshot of what you are saying. I'm not even particularly cognitively impaired, and I also have an advanced degree (not in physical science, though) -- and I am still lost.
Would it be possible for you to summarize your posts in layman's terms? Do away with the "make us guess and research" posts in favor of posts that spell out, clearly, what you are advocating or warning against? I ask this because I truly, really want to learn from your vast base of knowledge....
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
We have to stop Bb from forming its cell wall AND stop "hardening of the arteries" (LDL - lousy cholesterol deposits) from happening which is likely shielding Bb.
Bb is damaging the cells that line the blood vessels and lymph vessels. The lousy cholesterol plaques that form look to be protecting Bb by shielding those cells. Our own immune system would have a tough time then reaching the infected cells. Right? Can you "see" this?
Imagine a pipe (blood vessel). Look down that pipe. If the pipe is clogged with plaque, it is narrower. Up goes blood pressure. Now, imagine Bb hiding UNDER that plaque and the antibodies flowing thru that pipe can't reach Bb.
We have to stop VLDL (very low density lipoprotein) release from the liver. VLDL -> LDL.
We have to INactivate a liver enzyme called HMG CoA reductase.
This halts cholesterol "production" via the liver. It stops VLDL release.
We get/make cholesterol via the liver
OR
from foods. Our cells need cholesterol, so we will have to rely on providing the best nutrients from the right fats to do this.
When we consume, let's say...olive oil...hydrogen (in us) is ADDED until it is "saturated". Then it -> HDL...the "good" cholesterol...the "garbage truck" of our system.
HDL returns to the liver to breakdown and make bile salts which carry a lot of toxins out of our bodies.
Take it one step at a time. Read, re-read...over and over. It will "click" in time.
For anyone to "learn" anything, they have to "hear/see" it something like 7 times until it is committed to memory.
Don't expect to understand or remember what you read the first time.
That is why I am so boring...I keep repeating the same information over and over. Rote learning (repetition) helps - esp. if someone is suffering from temporary "brain fog".
You WILL catch on. I know you can. I know you all are intelligent here, just temporarily "handicapped" because of this disease.
The important thing is that you CAN get well.
NEVER, EVER forget that!
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Hi there Marnie, I have read many of your posts with great interest. I have learned a lot from you.
I appreciate that you take the time to share your knowledge with us.
Thankyou
Minimonkey, you can always scroll right past any of Marnie's posts if you don't like her terminology!
Posts: 58 | From NY | Registered: Dec 2005
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Thanks marine
for making it easier for us neuro lymies.
Do you think lipator would help BB from hiding under our Plaque?
I was reading youre post on acetylcholine. Good one!!!!
Is regular choline(like from egg yokes) the same as acetylcholine?
Thanks so much for all your efforts.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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My whole point was that I don't *want* to scroll by her posts... I want to be able to understand them. I do "scroll on by" the things that don't interest me or bother me -- but this is different. I'd like to see more of us be able to use the very important info that is posted by knowledgable folks here.
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Yup...good old olive oil.
Choline...Bb wants it, but we MUST (!) have it too. Choline deficiency = "fatty liver" and bile sludge. Phosphorus plays a part too. Think lecithin.
Acetyl Co A (comes from sugars and fats) + C acetyltransferase (an enzyme) + choline = acetylcholine.
In the news very recently...pay close attention to what it recommended:
Source: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Date: April 27, 2006
MIT Research Offers New Hope For Alzheimer's Patients
CAMBRIDGE, Mass.--MIT brain researchers have developed a "cocktail" of dietary supplements, now in human clinical trials, that holds promise for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.
For years, doctors have encouraged people to consume foods such as fish that are rich in omega-3 fatty acids because they appear to improve memory and other brain functions.
The MIT research suggests that a cocktail treatment of omega-3 fatty acids and two other compounds normally present in the blood, could delay the cognitive decline seen in Alzheimer's disease, which afflicts an estimated 4 million to 5 million Americans.
"It's been enormously frustrating to have so little to offer people that have (Alzheimer's) disease," said Richard Wurtman, the Cecil H. Green Distinguished Professor of Neuropharmacology at MIT, who led the research team. The study appears in the May 9 issue of Brain Research.
Wurtman will present the research at the International Academy of Nutrition and Aging 2006 Symposium on Nutrition and Alzheimer's Disease/Cognitive Decline in Chicago on Tuesday, May 2.
The three compounds in the treatment cocktail - omega-3 fatty acids, uridine and choline - are all needed by brain neurons to make phospholipids, the primary component of cell membranes.
After adding those supplements to the diets of gerbils, the researchers observed a dramatic increase in the amount of membranes that form brain cell synapses, where messages between cells are relayed. Damage in brain synapses is believed to cause the dementia that characterizes Alzheimer's disease.
If the successful results obtained in gerbils can be duplicated in the ongoing human trials, the new treatment could offer perhaps not a cure but a long-term Alzheimer's treatment similar to what L-dopa, a dopamine precursor, does for Parkinson's patients, said Wurtman, a professor in the Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences.
"It doesn't cure Parkinson's, but what it does do is to help replace something that's missing. It's not permanent, but it has had an enormous impact on people who have Parkinson's," he said. The new potential treatment offers a different approach from the traditional tactic of targeting the amyloid plaques and tangles that develop in the brains of Alzheimer's patients.
Until recently, most researchers believed these plaques and tangles caused the cognitive decline. But the failure of this hypothesis to lead to an effective treatment for Alzheimer's disease has caused some scientists to theorize that, though the plaques and tangles are always associated with the disease, they may not be the main cause of the dementia, nor the best target for treating it.
Instead, the new research focuses on brain synapses, where neurotransmitters such as dopamine, acetylcholine, serotonin and glutamate carry messages from presynaptic neurons to receptors in the membranes of postsynaptic neurons. In Alzheimer's patients, synapses in the cortex and hippocampus, which are involved in learning and memory, are damaged.
After the dietary supplements were given, the researchers detected a large increase in the levels of specific brain proteins known to be concentrated within synapses, indicating that more synaptic membranes had formed, Wurtman said.
Synaptic membrane protein levels rose if the gerbils were given either omega-3 fatty acids or uridine plus choline. However, the most dramatic upsurge was observed in gerbils fed all three compounds.
"To my knowledge, this is the first concrete explanation for the behavioral effects of taking omega-3 fatty acids," said Wurtman. Choline can be found in meats, nuts and eggs, and omega-3 fatty acids are found in a variety of sources, including fish, eggs, flaxseed and meat from grass-fed animals.
Uridine, which is found in RNA and produced by the liver and kidney, is not obtained from the diet. However, uridine is found in human breast milk, which is a good indication that supplementary uridine is safe for humans to consume, Wurtman said.
Recent studies by the researchers at MIT, and by scientists at Cambridge University in England, showed that either uridine or omega-3 fatty acids can promote the growth of neurites, which are small outgrowths of neuronal cell membranes. That further supports the hypothesis that omega-3 fatty acids increase synaptic membrane formation, said Wurtman.
Alzheimer's patients in the clinical trials, which will involve multiple medical centers, are being given a drink that contains the compounds under study, or a taste-matched placebo. "If it works as well on the brains of people with Alzheimer's disease as it does in laboratory animals, I think there will be a lot of interest," Wurtman said.
Other authors on the paper are Ismail Ulus, Mehmet Cansev, Carol Watkins, Lei Wang and George Marzloff of MIT's Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences. Ulus and Cansev also work at the Uludag University School of Medicine in Turkey.
The research was supported by the National Institutes of Health, the Center for Brain Sciences and Metabolism Charitable Trust and the Turkish Academy of Sciences.
Another (simplified):
Alzheimers Diet � Consume a diet rich in antioxidants with an emphasis on whole fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, and seeds.
� Regularly consume of cold-water fish to increase essential fatty acid (EFA) levels. EFAs are fatty acids (also known as Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids) which are essential to life, but which cannot be produced in the body and must be taken in through diet.
� A diet rich in magnesium is recommended. Aluminum absorption can be decreased by magnesium, because magnesium competes with aluminum for absorption, not only in the intestines but also at the blood-brain barrier.
Focus on unprocessed foods, avoid milk and dairy products, and increase the consumption of vegetables, whole grains, nuts and seeds - all good sources of magnesium.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yes MM is right I would love to be able to digest the information and not have to do a scroll by as well.
The Post here I think most of us can understand as compared to the Bb/Manganese post today. It was so complicated for me, Yes I'll re-read it and try to figure it out but in the meantime I have insomnia wondering if the manganese I took last week in my IV and IM with other vitamins was good or bad.
When I first read your posts my impression was that they were meant for a select group of people here that could understand them.
And by the way which green is it, Brassica?
The good part is we're all regenerating some brain cells trying to figure this stuff out.
Posts: 465 | From New York, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982
posted
Definitely interesting info, Marnie.
From what I understand of one of the bottom lines here, it seems that science is proving magnificently the ins and outs and specific benefits of what we all know we should do- treat our bodies to the diet they have evolved to process. Everything else is poison.
thanks from a slightly more enlighened ---Dilly
Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
It took me over 5 years of nonstop research and 1500 + MS word files to try to figure out what is happening and..
"Ancora Imparo" (Latin, "I am still learning")!
When antibiotics (3 years) failed my sister, I wanted to know WHY.
Much of the research is very "new" as we are JUST realizing that several pathogens are taking the glycolysis-cholesterol pathways and in some instances, leading to cancer (breast and prostate).
Genetic research has helped us understand a LOT of what is happening. This has only come about in the last few years. The information is coming in fast.
The body is sooooooo complex and in my opinion, is taking "alternative routes" to try to keep us alive.
To help you to "see" the enormous complexity of lyme, go here:
It is hard to grasp the number of nutrients, enzymes and other proteins impacted by this disease.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I've had the same reaction as minimonkey. You have a wealth of information to share, but I am missing out sometimes because I do scroll by since it can be a huge effort to follow your posts sometimes. I don't need to see or hear everything 7 times. I don't have that kind of time.
I have a Master's degree in Statistics, I write and edit math textbooks (which is very brain-draining) AND I have neuro Lyme/chronic Lyme. There aren't enough hours in the day to read and digest all the posts (though I certainly try). And, I don't have time to decipher the meaning of all posts. Your info is SO valuable. Please try to summarize at the end for those of us who just don't have the time or energy to figure it all out.
Thank you, Jill
Posts: 49 | From Orlando, Florida | Registered: Jun 2006
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Where did that come from?
Posts: 204 | Registered: Jan 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by ibrakeforticks: "avoid milk and dairy products"
Where did that come from?
I think Marnie said that.avoid milk and dairy products,
I would say not to much milk for people on abx's turns to sugars. I would say dairy products means cheeses some are good some bad.IMO
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Um, olive oil is not a good source for omega-3 oils -- fish oil is one of the best omega-3 sources.
Olive oil is a monosaturated fat, primarily an omega-9. It has it's own health benefits, apart from those of omega-3's.
Posts: 211 | From NC | Registered: Dec 2005
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-------------------- Stella Marie Posts: 694 | From US | Registered: Apr 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Avoid dairy and calcium was a "cut and paste" from an Alzheimer's Diet plan I found on the internet. To me, it makes absolute sense.
Mg low, Ca goes up. Research what calcium influx does to the thyroid.
Not good.
Also search "calcium influx TNF alpha".
We have HUGE stores of Calcium. It is the most abundant mineral and is in a LOT of foods!!!
Parmesan cheese is "off the charts" re: the amt. of calcium in it.
Jill, search this website for my "Updated Nutshell" post. Cut and paste it and drop it into a word file and print it out.
THEN just highlight the 30+ sentences (ignore the links) to BEGIN to learn. Think of it as "Cliff notes".
I haven't updated it recently, and should do so, but believe me...this is a monumental task!
This disease is INCREDIBLY complex! So many nutrients, so many enzymes and hormones and antibodies are impacted...it is unbelievable.
This is like trying to assemble a puzzle with a million pieces.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sue vG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3143
posted
I just want to add a big "thank you" to Marnie. I am so grateful for your generosity.
Posts: 1307 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
One thing I wanted to ask....Is inflammation the reason the abx and the immune system cant get to these bugs?I used an arb for awhile 3 months to be exact and when the inflammation was removed from the picture and I began to introduce the abx ,I herxed like crazy. Just wondering if the inflammation was the one hurdle that was really in the way of my recovery,Thanks RG
Posts: 140 | From Texas | Registered: May 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Normal cholesterol levels here (including VLDL):
I suspect that Bb is using LDL (in combo with calcium) to make a shield (plaque) protecting it from being reached by our own antibodies/abx.
Yes...in the news...statins reduce inflammation...but CRP (C-reactive protein), not TNF alpha. Okay...now you've made me wonder...
Reduce inflammation + abx. = works OR Reduce VLDL release + abx. = works.
CRP is not always a clear inflammation marker, we don't know why. In other words, inflammation might be there, but CRP might not be elevated.
Sis is off abx. She is on Humira ($$$shots) to block TNF alpha. (Side effect is cancer and TB). Dx'd "autoimmune"...nonstop inflammation.
(Let's assume now she can make some of her own antibodies to fight if the infection is still present.)
It was believed this proinflammatory cytokine could destroy Bb. Certainly it is protective as well as destructive.
``the level of TNF-alpha directly or indirectly regulates the production of borreliacidal antibody'' PMID: 12522038
and...
These results are in line with previous experiments using cells of the adaptive immune response, indicating that strong T helper type 1 (Th1) proinflammatory responses might be associated with a
successful resolution
of Lyme disease.
PMID: 15958074
Then she developed very serious bone degeneration, so she was put on Foxamax to halt the bone breakdown.
And...we've been "told" Foxamax might eliminate Bb too:
Ron S. Ronimus, Xuewei Liu, Russell S. Roberson, Charles E. McKenna, and Hugh W. Morgan, ``Inhibition of the Active Pyrophosphate-dependent Phosphofructokinases from the Syphilis Pathogen Treponema Pallidum and Lyme Disease Spirochete Borrelia Burgdorferi Using Bisphosphonates'', Biochem. Pharmacol., Accepted, 2005.
Bisphosphonates
Bisphosphonates are a family of drugs used to prevent and treat osteoporosis. There are three bisphosphonates currently approved for use in Canada: alendronate (Fosamax �), etidronate (Didrocal �) and risedronate (Actonel �).
How do they work?
Bisphosphonates bind permanently to the surfaces of the bones and slow down the osteoclasts (bone-eroding cells). This allows the osteoblasts (bone-building cells) to work more effectively.
But Foxamax is linked to a horrible jaw bone death after dental work (moreso IV doses than oral).
I'm here to tell you that didn't work as I have seen with my own eyes the continuing destruction of the joints in her hands.
Now, her doc has added Methotrexate (HIV drug). This drug DEPLETES choline (further)!
I might add, her left arm and hand are extremely swollen (lymphadema) and she has to wear a pressure sleeve at night.
So...reducing inflammation via current Rxs doesn't seem to halt the destruction or the disease overall. Foxamax isn't halting it either and Methotrexate is making her sicker (she's going to ask to go off it...not feeling good).
But it does look like INactivating HMG CoA reductase, stopping VLDL release, really helps.
'Natch, I think we should be doing this with (safer, IMO) magnesium for reasons way beyond the cholesterol pathway AND glycolysis pathway.
Plaques are calcium + cholesterol (VLDL-> LDL), so theoretically if we can halt the VLDL release, the circulating high levels of calcium wouldn't have cholesterol to lock onto and buildup Bb's "shields"...thus making our own antibodies and/or abx. more effective...able to reach the infected cells.
It looks like we need to prevent Ca release (by giving more Mg...fast) thus preventing VLDL ->LDL release.
The latest MS research is heading towards combining cholesterol lowering drugs AND abx. simultaneously.
Re: olive oil:
"Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids: Olive Oil contains both omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids."
But...
"Olive Oil does not have high levels of omega-3 fatty acids but it does have substances, the flavenoids, which exert some of the same effects. The ratio of Omega-3 to other acids is very good in olive oil and it may be that the ratio of these fatty acids is what's most important. "
posted
so glad i found this thread. I remember asking about cholesterol and lyme a month or so back and marnie was kind enough to PM me. I got the first half of the info, but the part about cholesterol was still cloudy. NOW I think I understand, so thanx a bunch.
It also seems to tie in with some new testing I had done. We found abnormally high lipoprotein(a) levels in my blood. I'm not sure that it is the same as VLDL. Maybe someone could answer that question for me.
My new LLMD has me on a chinese formula that contains among other things, red rice yeast. My doc does NOT like the statins and we are trying to see how this will work. Red rice yeast has a chemical similar to the statins, or at least that is how i understand the research I have found. Experience in the practice has been favorable.
Will keep you posted as we will be doing repeat bloodwork over the next 6-7 weeks.
My gut tells me that in at least my case cholesterol has something to do with my not yet kicking this as my levels were good until about 18 months ago. I had been treated for 3 years prior to that and making slow steady progress. Still progressing, but each piece of this puzzle must be evaluated and then manipulated to keep moving forward.
Keep that research coming.
Posts: 132 | From SE Pa | Registered: May 2006
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