"The Rockland case seems to fit an emerging pattern in which some severe or long-lasting cases of tick-borne disease turn out to be the result of simultaneous infections with two or even three types of microbe, said Dr. David Persing, the director of molecular microbiology at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn.
Along with Ehrlichia bacteria and the Lyme spirochete, a third infectious agent is sometimes carried by the deer tick.
Called Babesia microti, the other microbe is a relative of the parasite that causes malaria. Symptoms of infection with Babesia, including weight loss, fever and chills, overlap with those of Lyme and H.G.E., Dr. Persing said.
Dr. Persing said that eventually, as more is learned about Babesia and Ehrlichia, the disease now known as Lyme may come to be perceived as a complex, rather than a discrete disease caused by a single pathogen.
DUH! TOAD HEAD!
"When you get these agents together, this may make Lyme disease worse, and perhaps less treatable," he said.
Adding to the challenge facing doctors, he said, is the fact that each disease responds best to different antibiotics.
"What we'd love to have is something you might call tickicillin," Dr. Persing said. For now, he said, the best defense is to avoid ticks, and for doctors to study symptoms carefully and choose the appropriate drug.
I don't know if you're tired, I'm tired, or somebody over at the Times is tired, but in the byline, it says this was published in 1995.
Of course, at the top, it clearly says 2006. So, ... well, I'm too tired to even try to figure out ....
lol
H
-------------------- "Data over dogma, Evidence over egos, Patients over politics" -- one smart dude from Missouri Posts: 112 | From TN USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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timaca
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6911
posted
Hmmm~ This is good timing. Mayo Clinic Scottsdale got a letter and a phone call last week from me. I am requesting an inperson visit with the 3 doctors that missed my diagnosis, AND a hospital administrator.
Hope it happens.
Timaca
Posts: 2872 | From above 7,000 ft in a pine forest | Registered: Feb 2005
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lymednva
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9098
posted
Hayley, it appears the same to me. Did they just re-publish an old story? Strange!
-------------------- Lymednva Posts: 2407 | From over the river and through the woods | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by timaca: Hmmm~ This is good timing. Mayo Clinic Scottsdale got a letter and a phone call last week from me. I am requesting an inperson visit with the 3 doctors that missed my diagnosis, AND a hospital administrator.
You go girl!!
Tinny....If this is really from 1995...then this guy is probably practicing in TimBucktoo now. Mayo probably canned him long ago!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
RAH RAH RAH, TIMACA IS OUR STAR! Way to go lady! Looking forward IF you get this GOLDEN opportunity or not. Bettyg
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hey, Timaca -
Give them my regards, also. They missed my Lyme back in 2000. I spent $6,000 for some diagnoses I already had.
Twits.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
David Persing has been at a private biotech corporation for quite some time now; they are making money on microbes. He was also an author of the previous IDSA lyme treatment guidelines. I would not be looking to him for enlightened views on TBDs. Or at least not now. Quite a few of the current crop of villains published correct info ten years or more ago, but then the word went out to knock it off, and they did. Now they only publish and support the Steere/NIH/CDC view.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Unfortunately antibiotics DO INDEED rid co-infections BUT...
Make lyme disease worse for many reasons.
Bb is UNIQUE. It does NOT have an LPS (simplified: sugary) outer cell wall (which is what we need to destroy or prevent from forming - that's how abx. OR our own antibodies are supposed to work).
To destroy gram negative pathogens:
Step one...destroy/prevent formation of the outer cell wall.
This is basic microbiology.
I repeat, Bb is a totally UNIQUE pathogen. (Only mycoplasm is similar.) Bb follows the glycolysis AND cholesterol pathways.
As I have said before , the doctors "in the know" are aware of this, so antibiotics to treat longstanding lyme ARE going to be taken away/forbidden.
This bugger dives for cover. Changes its form.
Prepare yourself.
It's time to pay attention to "alternative treatments" that DO seem to help as reported here on occasion by others. Listen! Learn! Don't "chase" persons off this board. Evaluate. Decide for yourself.
Rife. Ozone saunas. Far infrared saunas/cold laser therapy. Highly selected nutritional supplements (timing is critical), etc.
Frequencies sent thru an argon light (Rife) appear to impact the calcium channels and possibly disrupt the oscillation of the bacteria which need to sway to and fro to divide. Once the cell wall is destroyed, other natural factors kick in to "finish the job" (osmotic/barometric pressure changes destroy cell wall deficient, macrophages appear on the scene, etc.).
Ozone saunas look to work by temporarily destroying the antioxidant enzymes (relatively easily damaged) thus Bb can be destroyed via superoxide (a powerful free radical) and/or H2O2 (we actually make H2O2 inside our cells for a split second constantly). Ozone saunas might also be impacting the level of NO (nitric oxide) which also is a powerful natural "antibiotic" that we normally make. Note: Do not BREATHE trivalent ozone...metabolic acidosis and respiratory acidosis are two entirely different "ball games".
Far infrared saunas/low level lasers (also called cold lasers) look to increase ATP and OPEN THE ACETYLCHOLINE CHANNELS. These saunas are now being used to treat cerebral palsy patients (they suffer with constant constriction of muscles - acetylcholine triggers muscle contractions).
I have shared a list of critical nutrients here many times.
You CAN get well, but it is not going to be as easy (or as cheap!) as popping a few antibiotics, eating and drinking whatever you want, etc. Insurance does not cover the supplements or many of the alternative therapies.
It takes an all out approach - a commitment to restoring your health.
But it CAN be done. Remember, the body heals slowly; it will take time.
Keep an open mind. Let go of anger.
Mind. Body. Spirit. All need to be "attended to" in order to heal.
May God help you to find the path to healing.
P.S. Mg will help fight lyme for multiple reasons. For babesia canis...well...in the 1970s vets in Germany gave dogs with babesia IV Na bicarbonate and they recovered. Food for thought.
posted
Thanks, Marnie, for reminding us that we are not without options if abx are not available!
I do want to make one point, though...
For most of us, there is nothing easy or cheap about pharmaceutical treatment... no "popping a few abx" for any of us, really --- most of us are looking at years and years of different abx and other drugs, and doctors who are not covered by insurance, etc. This is no easy road.
Many of us (like me) also use supplements, watch our diets, and do whatever other treatments we can in order to get well, in addition to the abx.
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Marnie: Unfortunately antibiotics DO INDEED rid co-infections BUT...
Make lyme disease worse for many reasons.
Bb is UNIQUE. It does NOT have an LPS (simplified: sugary) outer cell wall (which is what we need to destroy or prevent from forming - that's how abx. OR our own antibodies are supposed to work).
To destroy gram negative pathogens:
Step one...destroy/prevent formation of the outer cell wall.
This is basic microbiology.
I repeat, Bb is a totally UNIQUE pathogen. (Only mycoplasm is similar.) Bb follows the glycolysis AND cholesterol pathways.
As I have said before , the doctors "in the know" are aware of this, so antibiotics to treat longstanding lyme ARE going to be taken away/forbidden.
This bugger dives for cover. Changes its form.
Prepare yourself.
It's time to pay attention to "alternative treatments" that DO seem to help as reported here on occasion by others. Listen! Learn! Don't "chase" persons off this board. Evaluate. Decide for yourself.
Rife. Ozone saunas. Far infrared saunas/cold laser therapy. Highly selected nutritional supplements (timing is critical), etc.
Frequencies sent thru an argon light (Rife) appear to impact the calcium channels and possibly disrupt the oscillation of the bacteria which need to sway to and fro to divide. Once the cell wall is destroyed, other natural factors kick in to "finish the job" (osmotic/barometric pressure changes destroy cell wall deficient, macrophages appear on the scene, etc.).
Ozone saunas look to work by temporarily destroying the antioxidant enzymes (relatively easily damaged) thus Bb can be destroyed via superoxide (a powerful free radical) and/or H2O2 (we actually make H2O2 inside our cells for a split second constantly). Ozone saunas might also be impacting the level of NO (nitric oxide) which also is a powerful natural "antibiotic" that we normally make. Note: Do not BREATHE trivalent ozone...metabolic acidosis and respiratory acidosis are two entirely different "ball games".
Far infrared saunas/low level lasers (also called cold lasers) look to increase ATP and OPEN THE ACETYLCHOLINE CHANNELS. These saunas are now being used to treat cerebral palsy patients (they suffer with constant constriction of muscles - acetylcholine triggers muscle contractions).
I have shared a list of critical nutrients here many times.
You CAN get well, but it is not going to be as easy (or as cheap!) as popping a few antibiotics, eating and drinking whatever you want, etc. Insurance does not cover the supplements or many of the alternative therapies.
It takes an all out approach - a commitment to restoring your health.
But it CAN be done. Remember, the body heals slowly; it will take time.
Keep an open mind. Let go of anger.
Mind. Body. Spirit. All need to be "attended to" in order to heal.
May God help you to find the path to healing.
P.S. Mg will help fight lyme for multiple reasons. For babesia canis...well...in the 1970s vets in Germany gave dogs with babesia IV Na bicarbonate and they recovered. Food for thought.
Marnie this is a better use for your talents, however, you are still incorrect. There exists a perfect solution to the Lyme Problem, and indeed you elicit some possible solutions.
An example of something you said which is clinically proven, would be Mg. I have independently varified this to be factual, and I started with the assumption Marnie was insane.
Mg does have an effect, positivly speaking against Lyme Disease.
However, the cure all that you propose with "natural" therapies is not based upon the same logic you have chosen with your insight into Mg.
This is where you, and I, and everyone else with the gift of science and logic need to come together and serve the greater good.
Some alternative therapies seem to be working, now, why is that? What exactly molecule for molecule are they doing? What does the disease do when this happens? After understanding the issue, could we use the same idea, but with another substance with is better suited for the purpose we have chosen.
The reasaon we must put down the illogical parts of your current argument, and previous arguments against alternative therapy I have proposed are simple. Truth exists for itself. It doesn't exist for me, it doesn't exist for you. It simply exists, and there is but one version to which it will completely respond.
Antibiotics are part of the solution, but, only part. Your suggestion otherwise must be thrown away as it is not logically part of a perfect solution. Also, my contention that alternative therapies are quackery is equally useless.
Sauans make people feel better, why? Exercise is promoted by Dr. B, why? Mg helps for a certain period of time, if taken in a certain way, why?
We must understand our enemy, because, clearly we have not understood each other.
So, whether the answer leads us to drugs we have never suggested, or something else entirely, let us allow truth, as it exists to guide the way we go to war. Any other possible option is inefficient. Inefficient is a way of saying wrong. Wrong is a way of saying False. False is the opposite of truth.
There isn't a minute to waste, people are suffering, and our enemies have not given up. So, we must work instead of rest, and scheme instead of concede.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Yes, this is old and was published in 1995.
Today's date will always appear at the top because it is an imbedded script in the code.
-------------------- **Eat Chocolate** Posts: 942 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Lymescience stated: "There exists a perfect solution to the Lyme Problem"
To suggest that there is only one perfect solution is, I believe, incorrect.
There are many paths to healing, each work in a different way, but reach the same goal.
I prefer what I believe is the safest path. It is based on the Romanian abstract (significant Mg loss) and Valletta's U.S. patent (Mg for autoimmune)...adapted. It involves nutrients highly selected and highly timed.
However, I do acknowledge that Rife therapy and Ozone saunas and far infrared also can help...a LOT.
Lymescience, you might want to spend a few hours or days, as I have, and try to figure out HOW these therapies work.
When someone here says something helps (like d-ribose, for example), I start trying to figure out WHY/HOW it could help.
Far infrared is KNOWN to disrupt the N-H and O-H bonds. This is very significant from several aspects. If we can "free" tyrosine from copper this would impact NFkB which is believed to be the cause of "chronic". If far infrared does indeed help increase ATP (providing the nitrogen and hydrogen components of ATP) and open the acetylcholine channels, it should indeed help. We have to restart the pump.
You've been away for awhile. Some "catch up" on linked research maybe in order before you once again state I am "incorrect" or state that I am "insane".
Lymescience: "Truth exists for itself. It doesn't exist for me, it doesn't exist for you. It simply exists, and there is but one version to which it will completely respond."
Truth exists for a split second in time...as new knowledge is gained, it evolves along with us.
Lymescience,if you disagree with me...PROVE, link, YOUR RESEARCH.
I will respectfully read it and try to see where it fits into this very, very complex puzzle.
[ 17. October 2006, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
It is SOOOO INTERESTING that so many of these guys were getting into the complexity of Lyme disease, and then pulled back and conformed to the IDSA. WHAT IS GOING ON????? I just can not wait for the lid of understanding to be blown off and those responsible for squelching the info. about Lyme to be exposed!!!! Bring on the day!!!
In the meantime.... What is the best form of Mg supplementation? I can not seem to get enough from an oral product - still experiencing cramping in toes adn lower legs. How much and how often is recommended thru IV and where does one get it??
Thanks,
Anneke
Posts: 364 | From California | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Mg supplementation needs to be done several times a day. It is apparently better to take doses that maintain the level rather than one big hit.
I am currently taking nearly 1000 mg a day in 3 or 4 doses, separated from abx that are affected by it. Have heard of other people on even higher doses. This can be fairly easy to figure out dose-wise; like acidophilous, you just increase it gradually until the symptoms (cramps or whatever) go away.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Marnie, you're right about many needing to look elsewhere for alternative treatment. Abx wasn't a cure for many of us.
I've been doing many alternative methods for over 3 years. I've made progress that 3+ years of abx never gave me.
Marnie, you made a great point about stopping the attacks that can drive alternative thinking people from this board. Many people have/had some great success with many treatments besides abx.
Overcoming this illness is so much more than just abx.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I think you and I were saying the same thing Marnie, but without understanding each other.
When I say there exists a perfect way, I mean something different from what you seem to be conveying.
My point regarding legitamate science is this: Can you tell me what your research has proven, not through papers, but through real life subjects, even yourself will do. What was the dosage, what were the effects, do you have photographic evidence, do you have video.
Do you understand the disease such that you can miniupulate the variable under your study different ways, but come up with the same predicted outcome.
For example, if I were to hypothesize that Lyme Disease caused an imbalance in the vasomotor system. One way I could prove this was happening would be to first read the literature on the subject, similar to the links you provide. Step 2 would be to identify if this is what the literature described, and if not, then can I find another source, even if in a different disease, which describes what is in front of my eyes? Third, what do I predict will happen if I remove part of the problem, for example, lets say I chose to target the vasomotor system in the foot.
I went about proving my theory by A: taking before and after pictures of the affected area, recording measurements with at least some rudimentary equiptment, and trying to find someone without this problem, and doing the same thing. Then, I would perform different experiements, all based upon very reasonable ideas that would be unlikely to harm anyone.
One way to prove an understanding of the problem would be to use an alternative therapy, but one that is based on science. Say, for instance, I chose to use vicks vapor rub (not real experiements, this is an example). Next, I decided to use a combination of Quinine, ect...
Third, maybe deep massage. Fourth, Marajaina (stimulates the vasomotor system through the periphial nerves). Fifth, friction in the form of exercise. 6th, perhaps you would study the understanding you had by applying pressure, in the form of hot water, then change the equation and use lukewarm, then use cold. Next, if possible, use a pressurized environment such as a Hyperbaric environment to eliminate the variable of hot, cold, or nuetral, so that you are only studying gravity, or pressure.
Re-read your results and experiements.
Assign a level of efficiency to each treatment, and then go about the same task described above using combinations and describe efficiency, cost effectiveness, side effect profile, relapse rate, ect...
This is what I've been doing for about 9 months now.
I have volumes of data not based on 1, 2, or even 3 ways of testing, but on the order of 12, or 13 ways of looking at exactly the same variable, and maniupulating it such that you understand it enough that you then read from the literature what is happening.
The truth is, you didn't know what was happening, until you did quite a bit of science, so now that you have all this repeatable stuff, you can go searching not an entire haystack, but very selectivly, so that you could piece together from the macro experiements you used, to fine tune your knowledge such that you are at the level of chemistry, and hopefully, come to a point of finding the 2 or 3 mechanisms that seem to be holding up the house if you will.
By performing the testing as described above, you will have subjected your idea to many different evolutionairy pressures, so it will give a very reasonable idea of how applicable this would be to other people.
The downside is that you can only apply the data to geographical locations so far. Thats why different Lyme people, spread out, performing the same kind of simple exierments would help us to limit the variables inherint to evolution.
So, is there 1 perfect solution, yes. But, each solution is made of many, many different variables. It is only through very strict testing that it becomes possible to discover the positives and negatives of each approach.
There are some alternative therapies I've found to be better than "antibiotics". But the truth is that there is no reason we shouldn't be able to take very simple antibiotics just like those jerks at the IDSA want.
Besides, wouldn't everyone want a simple solution to Lyme Disease.
I've done tons of research, and I have little question that there is a simple solution, but to find, and understand this solution requires enourmous effort because one must test and refine their hypothesis of Lyme Disease many, many times.
This requires failure, because the disease has a set behavior that it uses to govern how it adapts to survive. Certainly there are things like genetic mutations, but this would lead to adaptation and resistance. However, if your research is extremely good, you will be able to pinpoint the exact day resistance begain. This won't tell you if a random mutation occured, but you will know that something did. It is through the volumes of research collected, that once analyzed, you can spot what is more likely to be a mutation, and something which is explanable through somethign else entirly.
The reason I don't post some of my info is 1, I have a large amount of data, and truthfully, I begain the process of analyzing it only 2 weeks ago as I was writing a scientific paper to sum up all the work I'd done. Another reason I havn't posted some of the links is because anyone can read this board, and because I have so thoroughly scrutinized every single idea I had from so many angles, eg:12-15 different ways of looking at the same thing.
I know my results are repeatable, as I don't believe in anything other than results. God wrote the program for physics, not me, so if I'm to understand the rules, I have to be humble enough to say I don't know them. So I tested, and tested, and tested.
I don't have any reason to fight with you Marnie, my work stands for itself, because the rules weren't put in place by me, they exist for themselves, all I did was try to figure out the rules.
What I wanted was someone to help me analyze the massive amount of information bennificial to all people who have Lyme Disease. Then, suggest ways of testing certain ideas a 14th, 15th way, ect, if there is science to suggest something works better than the effectiveness that has been proven already to occur.
The only thing I'm trying to do is end the war, and now that I'm close to knowing not just that we are right, but where we are wrong, and where they are wrong, all I'm asking for is help from those who are trustworthy.
I'm sorry if anything I said offended you Marnie, please try to forgive me if thats the case. Just take the above to be true, and either help me, or take it to be false, and either I'll just finish it out myself, or someone will decide to pitch in a hand. I only have about 3 or 4 hours a day I can do science, and I do that every day of the week, but I'm only one person, and it will take time to gather my data into one source, then, the task of analyzing is a task that requires substantial reading to figure out molecule for molecule what the results mean.
Then, we test if we were right, if not, we go back to the drawing board, but my point is that I've already begun the path of completely describing the biological behavior of this disease in my geographical area. There are still some areas that are fuzzy. I don't know everything, I'm just one man, but my entire train of thought concerns trying to first get help with my work, then, through the Lyme Community see if the same, or similar experiments are applicable not just in North Carolina, but in Mass, Conn, NY, NJ, CA, WA, Ohio, Texas, ect....
I've done the biggest part of the work by doing as many experiments as I have, the rest shouldn't be all that difficult, even though hard, for a real shot at finally explaining this disease so no one will ever have to describe it as "weird" again.
It would have been explained.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
OK Scientific ones, help me out here.
Magnesium- strengthens the heart- increasing blood flow?
Saunas/Heat- increase blood flow to outer tissues?
Heparin/aspirin/blueberries etc.- increase fluidity of blood, increasing blood flow?
Perhaps increased blood flow disrupts their activity in the tissues and maybe dislodges them until they relocate?
It also likely enables the body to more quickly filter the toxins from the blood?
ABX actually kills the buggers, when it can get them?
Maybe if the blood is circulating rapidly they have trouble getting into their hiding places?
This could be why they work to sludge up the blood and slow down the works. Also if the body temperature is lower so is the circulation?
Any input?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
And yes, I actually believe that it can happen. One person can change the world if they believe strongly enough.
But they can't change the worlds perspective until someone lends a hand.
Marnie, and anyone else willing to help, I'm saying outright that my plan is simple, even if arrogant: An explanation of Lyme Disease, and how to treat it, what to expect durring treatment, what to take if something doesn't work, how it effects menopausal women, how it effects children, ect.... Basically everything the medical board here is used for, but instead of opinions, we would have results. How would anyone feel to be able to remove those dark days of Lyme? Wouldn't you like to be able to give that gift to someone and know you were right, and because you were right, that person would suffer much less?
The science hasn't been done by the scientists, so why should we allow another generation to suffer because of the ignorance of these people. If what we claim is proveable, we don't need to be scientists, we just need to be correct. And, we need to explain it to such a high degree of precision that its clear even non-trained scientists can repeat the experiement.
Basically, we have to remove every single loophole the people at the IDSA have used. If we remove all the science terms they are hiding behind, they will have found nowhere else to hide, and people will see them for what they are.
A group of individuals so bent upon a single idea that it forced a group of suffers to perform the research they failed to accomplish.
If we were successfull, we'd get all the press anyone would ever want or need, but most importantly, it would set a much needed precedent, not just for Lyme Disease, but for all other diseases. Scientists are in the service of the sick, not in the service of their own interests. Anyone who finds this idea unpalatable can find another profession, but medicine is so important that we have to remove the bad seeds, and we have to remove as many as we can.
Who has courage for more than just their own life?
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
Hi everyone:
Tincup, thanks for sending this relevant article.
I want to thank all of you on this thread for your commitment to helping us lyme disease sufferers.
For me, I am terrified by the implication of the new guidelines in taking abx away from treatment modalities. I know of one LLMD who has recently turned into a duck, and he may not be the only one.
Thanks tincup, lyme science, marnie and all for your research and commitment -- it is helping my world and I am in it for the long haul -- healing lyme by any means necessary!
I still do not understand what a far infrared sauna is and where I could try one in the NYC region, but would like to find out. Would also like to try a rife machine without first investing $$! I guess, wouldn't we all?
Marnie, I am taking Mg citrate after reading your threads BID; certainly makes me feel better but have to watch dose or it gives one the runs!
Finishing now my month of 3g/day amoxy -- which has helped somewhat, but much more to go....
- ella
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
Saunas/Heat- increase blood flow to outer tissues?
Heparin/aspirin/blueberries etc.- increase fluidity of blood, increasing blood flow?
Perhaps increased blood flow disrupts their activity in the tissues and maybe dislodges them until they relocate?
It also likely enables the body to more quickly filter the toxins from the blood?
ABX actually kills the buggers, when it can get them?
Maybe if the blood is circulating rapidly they have trouble getting into their hiding places?
This could be why they work to sludge up the blood and slow down the works. Also if the body temperature is lower so is the circulation?
Any input?
Yes. One can actually measure the amount of energy gained and lost, on average, of the reaction you refer.
Ideally, one would like to have the reaction go one direction durring an antibiotic dosage, towards the side that allows the body temperature to raise.
Generally, what occurs is that an antibiotic is taken, if it was taken correctly, but by itself, and it was effective, the body temperature rises, eventually declining, then there is a bit of a tug of war until things even out. Between 16-24 hours after the dosage of the antibiotic, and sometimes it can take longer, the temperature begins to rise, and this co-incides with a improvement in blood flow and the peak temperature is greater than the day previous when temperature was measured before antibiotic dosage.
The antibiotic doesn't work well if, this relationship is static, meaning no change, or much worse, there is a strong trend towards a lowering of body temperature, reduction of blood flow co-occuring with severe impairment of nuerological functions, enteric, central, and periphial, then you are taking the wrong meds.
However, a med that is working, can make the pain worse, but it should also make the temperature rise, lessen the brain fog, and improve blood flow.
The key is to maximize the relationships we find so we can have a set criteria of physically verifyable signs that we can identify as markers of succesffull therapies. What we currently have is much to ambigious that any single symptom in existance is OK, and we are all left scratching our heads as to whether or not it was an allergic reaction, herx, toxicity, ....
It would be better to simply identify the markers that anyone in their own homes could understand, and they should be physically visible to anyone who wanted to see these markers. That way, while we can't answer every question relating to the very strange reactions to Lyme, we can identify a common set of signs to look for in one's body if a certain medication is working.
The other side of that is more difficult, as not working could happen for a variety of reasons, one being allergic reactions, so that's why I think the first thing is for us to come to some form of concensious regarding the things that mean the drugs are working.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Can we start several different threads for collection of data?
First take a survey of different protocols, then try to group them together.
ie: Subject: Protocol A - Azithromycin & Atovaquone Subject: Protocol B - name another combo Subject: Protocol C - another combo
(As people start protocols that haven't been listed yet, they can start new threads.)
Have people currently doing protocol reply daily (same time each day if poss) with information that might serve some purpose for determination.
Protocol starting body temp:
Day # of protocol:
body temp:
blood pressure: (if available - my LLMD seemed to be encouraged by the increase in my blood pressure after Babs Tx, so that might be a tell)
symptom status summation: mental: same, new symptoms, noted improvement physical: same, new symptoms, noted improvement
List adjunct therapies - ie: excercise, sauna, rife.....
any other info you feel might be useful:
Do you think something like that might help? Ali
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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We have these great doctors, but they are very few of them. There are many more of us.
If we can have some kind of secure site, or set something up where our enemies don't have access to our work.
Yes, this is needed desperatly. It would have to be something that the Lyme Docs would have access to, and that the Lyme Community would activily participate in bringing about.
If we work together, we can do significant things. But alone, our doctors can only do so much.
Lets help them, and ourselves. I believe a very good idea was just posted. Any ideas on how to improve upon this idea?
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Conflicting research doesn't help!!! Quoting the link you posted, Lymescience:
"LPS = Lipopolysaccharid. LPS bei B. burgdorferi:
Beck G, Habicht GS, Benach JL, Coleman JL, Chemical and biologic characterization of a
***lipopolysaccharide extracted from the Lyme disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi)***,
J Infect Dis. 1985 Jul;152(1):108-17.
Takayama K, Rothenberg RJ, Barbour AG,
***Absence of lipopolysaccharide in the Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi.***
Infect Immun. 1987 Sep;55(9):2311-3.
Bb wants choline. Its outer cell wall is made of proteins...so Bb shys away from ethanol which alters proteins.
This is why Flagyl is given. Combine Flagyl with ADDITIONAL alcohol and wham-o...alcohol (ethanol) overdose.
Bb "upregulates" acetylcholine production.
The body responds with norepinephrine to counter...which converts to many other things...ultimately to cortisol. No wonder it survives.
Fat. Hair loss. Fluorescent lights bother...the list goes on and on...all related to cortisol levels...until they are exhausted (adrenal exhaustion).
Too acidic. Too much TNF alpha. Too much cortisol. Too much melatonin (initially). Up goes potassium, calcium...to try to balance. (Stores of Mg are already too low.)
Want salt..of course! So does Bb...it drives choline INSIDE the cell.
Your body is looking for any and all minerals to help raise your pH.
This gets INCREDIBLY complex.
If it's good enough for NASA and the Japanese...
Research far infrared IN DEPTH!!! There are reasons WHY it works. Give it time...and if you can afford one...buy a state-of-the-art far infrared sauna. In the long run, it will save you $$$ since individual treatment run about $50. Ideally a half hour EVERY DAY.
Bb has C-acetyltransferase. It does NOT have N-acetlytransferase which is one of the 2 enzymes necessary to convert serotonin to melatonin...which we are trying to do to fight, to combat oxidative stress (too many very damaging free radicals). Melatonin is an extremely powerful "antioxidant" due to its indole (H-N). Likely N "donation" to grab onto free (oxygen) radicals.
If Bb is using OUR C-acetyltransferase = dementia.
If Bb is using OUR SOD and glutathione peroxidase to avoid destruction via the powerful free radical, superoxide... and H2O2...and the liver is damaged due to ethanol and is "fatty" due to a choline deficiency...
It goes on and on.
Like I have said...this is a nutritional nightmare.
Like us...many pathogens love sugar! The catch is...we need it for our brain functioning and our WBCs need glycogen.
If indeed far infrared does help us to make more ATP and OPENS THE ACETYLCHOLINE CHANNELS...it should help a LOT.
If it indeed impacts the N-H and O-H bonds, this should make a HUGE difference...raising the pH...breaking apart N from H...reducing melatonin (sleepy?) back to serotonin, freeing up nitrogen to combine with oxygen...NO...dilating vessels...
Not to mention breaking the tyrosine-copper bond (O-H), freeing up tyrosine to INactivate NFkB.
Way to go, Kent (Troutscout)! Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!!!
Another safe route to healing.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
If it is security you want, you would need to have a program with access established by LLMDs treating patients. Trolls, my dear, trolls.
Even LLMDs can be fooled by posers.
The program would also have to be supremely easy, as many people undergoing treatment are having a tough time just dealing with the bare minimum responsibilities to begin with.
Then there is also the issue of known vs suspected vs unknown co-infections, which influence the outcomes.
I know my lyme-brain is not capable at this point of hashing out all the variables and possible scenarios.
Perhaps if there was a group of researchers who could establish a format for a treatment questionnaire that could be distributed through ILADS & ILADS doctors?
There might be some compliance issues, if it was at all difficult, as many people are extremely ill.
Then compiling the data would be a major time consuming feat.
Has anyone actually been able to determine the true markers for progress of treatment, as of yet?
It seems like that would be impossible with so many meds and supplements and alternative therapies being thrown into the mix at once.
The LLMD I'm going to has told me that I am not allowed to take/do anything other than what he tells me to. I am going for monthly follow up and he monitors and records all vital information himself.
I believe that he is a very thorough diagnostician and and excellent researcher.
The temptation is great to add other therapies and supplements to try and rid myself of this dread disease as quickly as possible. Especially because I know that most here would consider my present protocol inadequate.
I do know of other patients he is treating more aggressively. They were in worse shape initially than I was. I feel confident that, should my condition worsen, he would become more aggresive.
I am therefore complying with his protocol, in the hope that he will gain better understanding of the disease. He already seems to have quite a good grasp.
I am told that Physical therapy will start next month. (I need to walk this month to build strength)
He will continue TXing with ABX until physically symptom free. Then Azithromycin 1st week of every month as maintenance to prevent relapse.
The memory loss and confusion, I'm told, could take around 2 yrs to really show improvement and I may never fully recover from that damage.
I am complying with his requests in the hope that he may be better able to help others. I realize that it is likely very hard for a Dr. to keep track of what's what, when every patient is doing their own thing.
I also realize that when you're sick it's very hard to not do everything possible that you think might make you better.
I'm sorry, I was pulled away from this and have no idea what I was talking about or where I was going with this. I'll try to come back to it later, I'm too exhausted right now.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
It took me so long to actually post that previous reply that I just read your post before mine, Marnie.
All I can say is WOW, the heck with my LLMD. Where do I get one??!!
Thanks for the info!
Ali
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
"Conflicting research doesn't help!!! Quoting the link you posted, Lymescience:"
That is where you are dead wrong. Biology IS physics. Conflicting research, assuming the research is not frankly false, is WONDERFULL. Why?
Through incredibly careful reading of the texts, one can find the suttle differences between experiements, thus one is provided with an incredibly exact version of physics. Meaning, that you are left with a peice of the puzzle you did not previously have.
Any explanation for the phenomina of Lyme Disease must be PERFECTLY rational, accounting for both the observations we have seen, AND, the observations others have seen.
False research can be omitted, but research done faithfully, even if it dissagrees with our premise MUST be included. Otherwise, we are not studying biophysics, and ultimatly, we are just running in a circle. Until we understand completely, we are just medicine men casting spells.
I believe we deserve much more than that. As a believer in God, I believe, as did Einstein, that nature is governed by certain laws. They may be difficult to discover, but they do exist. The search for their rules, and the assumption of exactness is not a fruitless effort, because, it is an indirect searching of the mind of God.
The question is, can you actually discover evolution as it exists... my answer, yes, you can, but you will always be a step or two behind the reality. However, if we were that close to reality, the problem of chronic lyme would long have been a nil discussion.
This is what I'm proposing. Complete, exact, profound. Our enemy has laws it must follow, so, what are those laws?
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Lymescience, it is obvious you work hard to research and get things right. I sense your search for truth includes trying to have attundment with God. I like that. I'm not coping real well now, but would like to share some insights.
The "enemy" is also threatening and frustrating to me, but I don't want that to control me. We have to figure some things out for ourselves. If we share information and stay attuned to our own bodies, we may be ahead of the curve relative to the accepted "truth" regarding Lyme disease.
I remember discussion in a graduate school research class about how there was no proof that smoking tobbaco would shorten your life. This discussion included the ethics of doing the necessary long-term study.
It was obvious to me that smoking caused cancer and shortened lives. Initially, what it took to move toward the truth was the Surgeon General making the decision requiring warning labels on cigarette packs (which was ahead of the research).
Yes, we need good research, but the lack of it does not have to hold us back. I struggle with what to do. I need better attunement with my emotions, my own body, and others including God. Sometimes I just have to slow things down, search for the attunement, and give myself time to heal.
Lymescience, my gut feeling on what to say to your is this; Things will work out.
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