I'm trying to find out more info on bartonella as i'm being treated for it:
-does bart have a slow cellular dividing process like borrelia? -does bart have replication/growth cycles like lyme every 4-5 weeks when more likely to get die-of from abx?
Many thanks, (i'm trying to figure out what die-off is from bart & what from lyme!!)
Liz
Posts: 83 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Areneli
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6740
posted
Monthly cycles are exteremely rare in infections. I doubt that Bart will do that.
What treatment for Bart are you doing?
Posts: 1538 | From Planet Earth | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I'm not sure, but I suspect I also have bart with some of my last sx that don't seem to disappear and these sx do run in a cycle.
I've never seen a reference to bart and cycles, but....? I remember back 4 yrs ago when I tried the abx for bart and the sx went 5x on me.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
just wondered if anyone with bart finds they do get a worsening of sx every 5 days?
so if bart doesnt have a slow diving process like lyme does this mean that we should be able to kill it off quickly with abx? i've been on levaquin for 4 mths now & wandering how long tx is needed for bart?
Thanks, Liz
Posts: 83 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Areneli
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6740
posted
Do you treat Lyme at the same time?
Recommendations say: treat both diseases at the same time. Not just Bart.
I doubt that killing Bart alone will cause Herx unless treatment is connected with LD treatment.
Posts: 1538 | From Planet Earth | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
My daughter has tested pos for bart only. If there is something else going on, it hasn't shown its face yet.
She DEFINITELY herxes! The first couple of months she started antibiotics, she was in major pain. We see a cycle only as much as the symptoms get worse with the menstrual cycle.
From what I hear, it is a slow divider. She is currently taking a 30 day break because her stomach is a mess.
However, she is taking a low dose of Zithromax because when she goes completely off, her mycoplasma pneumonia acts up and she can't breathe.
We see the LLMD on monday, and he may change her medication. She has had slow, steady improvement, but she is still disabled.
Otherwise, this has been our experience. She is charting now to find a pattern. So far, it just floats and moves around her body.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
troutscout
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3121
posted
So.......what are the herxheimers you refer to?
Trout
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
HAR. Good question, Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer!
For the new person. A "herx", or a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction is when the bacteria dies and releases toxins into the body, making you actually feel sicker.
Is that good? "I'm just a...caveman"
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
Areneli
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6740
posted
Who is the new person who doesn't know that?
Posts: 1538 | From Planet Earth | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
Jill E.
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9121
posted
I almost never herx with Lyme but do with Bart - increased muscle twitching, myoclonus, muscle pain, all kinds of central nervous system stuff.
Had to go off treatment early - can't do the Bart meds right now, so I still have the sore soles and all the CNS symptoms.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
Sorry. Maybe I misread it. I thought he was being sarcastic...were you? I just can't tell any more Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
i thought the muscle twtiching and other symptoms are from the lyme disease---
bart cause the sore soles (feet )and shooting pains for me
i get so confused with all these bugs -- they seem to be on a mission
i am curious about the symptoms because i did not test for bart but was positive for babs and borrelia
thanks
mags
mags
Posts: 259 | From California | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
Jill E.
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9121
posted
quote:Originally posted by mag: jill
i thought the muscle twtiching and other symptoms are from the lyme disease---
bart cause the sore soles (feet )and shooting pains for me
i get so confused with all these bugs -- they seem to be on a mission
i am curious about the symptoms because i did not test for bart but was positive for babs and borrelia
thanks
mags
mags
This is a dilemma so many of us have. Even my LLMD isn't sure which symptom is which with me.
I've had muscle twitching from day one of undiagnosed Lyme, then during treatment it started reducing.
But the increased muscle twitching, and the new symptom of myoclonic jerking and tremors seems to have coincided more with my Bartonella test going positive and beginning (then abandoning) Bart treatment.
The famous Dr. B. in a speech says that when the central nervous system symptoms are great - as in out of proportion to other symptoms - there is usually a Bartonella-like organism involved.
I've got burning neuropathy throughout my body, muscle pain, muscle weakness and a host of other symptoms, but my central nervous system stuff seems to have gotten worse, despite lots of Lyme medications.
So to be, that's pointing to the Bartonella or other coinfections getting worse, because I've really plateud on Lyme medications.
But you are right, many of these symptoms like muscle twitching can be purely Lyme.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I read one form of bart (quint..something) has fevers for five days, but I don't think it said anything about how often they reoccurred or what stage it was in. Anybody have this form and have fever in cycles?
Posts: 242 | From Mississippi | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
okay -- sounds like Dr B knows the cns involvement and what to expect. After taking only 3 doses of abx - i got so sick that i went back to the herbs for babesia and lymes. they are more gentle.
the cns symptoms intensify at times - but confusion is minimal - i must be on a 3to 4 day good and bad cycle
got to keep on going
mags
Posts: 259 | From California | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
david1097
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3662
posted
-does bart have a slow cellular dividing process like borrelia?
Not AS slow nor as regular as borrelia. It does replicate fairly fast in cutaneous infections, however in later stages it does not, likely because it is being held in check by the immune system. It can be a very hard disease to treat.
-does bart have replication/growth cycles like lyme every 4-5 weeks when more likely to get die-of from abx?
Bartonella is know to SOMETIMES present with wax and wain cycles but from what I have read the cycles are not as regular as those from lyme. I would therefore suspect that the wax and wain pattern is due to other factors which modulate the immune response. It is also interesting to onserve that there are documented "chronic" forms of the disease due to the bacteria being sequestered somewhere in the body. The exact location s not know but it is suspected by some that it is the liver.
Bartonella comes in many many forms and new variants are still being found. As a result, the tests for it are pretty bad if the disease is caught through a zoonotic vector (search for bartonella in the veterinary context and you will see that PCR using a variety of primers is the recommended method of detection.) It also can produce the herxhiemer effect where the bacterial fragments activate an immunue response. One call them toxins but a more description is that they are pyrogenic cell remnants.
In terms of symptoms, there is a lot of overlap between lyme and bartonella, including joint and neuro problems.
I suspect that the only way to figure it out for sure is to try to treat it and see the response. Bartonella also has some specific symtoms (like swollen lymph nodes) which Lyme typically does not have. Because of this and the poor testing capability, a lot of Dr's will base the treatment on risk factor as well clinical history. If the lyme mono treatmetn fails this may be another reason to suspect bartonella (since it is in a high percentage of ticks)
It should also be remembered that bartoenlla also responds to the antibiotics used for Lyme, but perhaps not optimally so the more expeirenced Drs often add a quinolone to the mix to try to hit the bartonella. Quinolones where not recognized as being effective agains bartonella except fairly recently.
good luck
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic