posted
Please bear with me tonight because I am really foggy but I sure would like to know more about this subject.
I am newly diagnosed with Lyme but have had symptoms and been disabled for over 10 years. About three years ago my PCP decided it was time to start a statin drug for my increasing high cholesterol.
I honestly can't remember which one I started with but it was the "popular" one of the day. Within a few hours of taking the med. I got SEVERE pain in my legs and back and I felt very dizzy.
I called the doctor to report symptoms and he said to continue the med. for a week to see if symptoms decreased. It was an AWFUL week with pain like I had never felt before.
I stayed in bed but nothing touched the pain. After about 4 days of this I called Dr. and said I couldn't stand the pain. He said to stop med. and come in to see him in a month.
At next appt. Dr. said we would try a different statin drug. Had same symptoms. Went through 4 different meds. for high cholesterol and had to stop each time because of the muscle pain.
THEN I was prescribed Crestor. I had leg pain right away but it was not as bad. However, I had terrible nightmares and woke up hallucinating. I could not quit crying and was terrified but did not know why.
My daughter came to my house and ran a bath and I soaked for a while. It helped my pain and I was able to quit crying.
Now these years later I know that these episodes sound like really bad herxing. At that time I had not considered Lyme as a diagnosis. The last episode with Crestor did not stop right away even though I immediately quit taking the drug. I had muscle pain and spasms that lasted many weeks.
Having been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia I was used to pain and the fatigue of CFS. However, I was pounded by statin drugs and am not sure why.
I was reading some former posts about chemical reactions/magnesium/calcium/iron/connections and wondered if anyone else had ever had this experience with statins prescribed for high cholesterol.
I don't think that using five different statin meds, including Zetia which is supposed to not effect the liver so much, and having the reaction I did was just a coincidence.
My doctor told me that I was just "sensitive" to the meds and could not take them. He could not explain how or why but said that they are not for everyone.
Now this PCP is the type who pats you on the knee and usually says something like, "Honey, I've had a touch of that too!" He's not condescending but is placating and doesn't ever want to talk about anything "serious."
When I tell him about my Lyme diagnosis or he gets Dr. J's notes he'll probably say he's had a touch of that as well.
I know I'm rambling but I guess my question is also what kind of chemical reaction could I have had from statins that caused a terrible herx response?
Do statins cause BB die-off? Has this been studied? I'd take them again if it killed off Borellia infection, just a MUCH smaller dose. Has anyone else thought of or heard of a connection? Anyone else experienced a herx with statins?
Maybe some of you with chemical backgrounds and understanding can help me....I'm happy to do my own research but maybe someone could lead me to a starting place.
Thanks so much....I love it here!
Janet
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: No information presented above should be considered medical advice or take the place of advice given by a medical professional. Links to other sites are provided merely for ease of research. Posts: 287 | From Tennessee | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
Jill E.
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9121
posted
I am not a fan of statins for the main reason that I had finally, begrudgingly given in to one doctor to go on one, not realizing I had just contracted Lyme Disease.
So when I developed the burning neuropathy and muscle pain and weakness of Lyme, it was blamed on the statin. Because all of those symptoms can be very serious adverse reactions to statins, indicating possible serious muscle disease or neuropathy - from the statin.
So even though I went off the statin, and continued to get worse, the doctors chalked it up to my being one of those people that gets damaged by statins and it doesn't go away.
Anyway, I do know that statins pulls the CoEnzyme Q10 out of you. CoQ10 is needed for all kinds of cellular issues, is very heart healthy, etc. So it is always essential to supplement with CoQ10 while on statins.
I've used CoQ10 as a heart-healthy supplement for years, now use it as part of my Lyme support regimen, and was on plenty during my brief stint on statins.
Did you ever have your CPK and aldolase levels measured while on statins? When the doctors thought the statin had caused serious muscle damage in me, those are among the slew of tests run on me.
Of course, it all turned out to be Lyme, but there is no way I'd go on a statin now - because I'd never know if the muscle pain and neuropathy was from the statin or Lyme.
Marnie, who posts here on Lymenet, can probably explain the statin-Lyme interaction on a biochemical level that makes sense.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have had CFS for a number of years (no bands for Lyme by Western Blot). My cholesterol went to 300+ (just like my mom's did) and so the Doctor put me on Lipitor. I became suicidal. I was switched to Pravachol w/o the same effect. A few years later I tried Lipitor again.... and found that it had not been coincidental (got very depressed again.)
Posts: 758 | From now TX | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks to everyone who replied! I just have to believe there is a connection either to worsening of Lyme symptoms while on statins or some chemical reaction which caused a type of herx.
I remember searching for information about Crestor during my last bout with the horrible symptoms I had while taking it and was really surprised by all the warnings I found.
Even my PCP said that Crestor was being found to adversely effect about 1/3 of people taking it. I think I minimized the results of taking Crestor.
When I thought about it more last night I remember that my muscle pain and spasms lasted for months and my dreams continued to be scarey nighmares.
That reaction cost me a relationship I was in at the time. He couldn't deal with the psychological changes I was undergoing, nor the crying from the pain.
High cholesterol seems to be a symptom many of us experience. I don't understand the connection. My 7 year old grandson just received test results for cholesterol and it was over 300!
I wonder what the long-term effects of high cholesterol are in Lyme patients. My PCP doesn't seem to be too concerned anymore about my high levels since I had such bad symptoms while taking statins. He said he didn't have any other pills in his bag of tricks.
I hope Marnie will see this post and comment based on her extensive knowledge. Others PLEASE post if you have had problems with statin drugs.
Thanks so much,
Janet
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: No information presented above should be considered medical advice or take the place of advice given by a medical professional. Links to other sites are provided merely for ease of research. Posts: 287 | From Tennessee | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I you are having leg pains then stop taking statins. That is a serious side effect that is buried in the warnings that come with the drug..
People that use statins should not drive cars. The danger is that your memory can go blank and you cannot remember how to drive or where, why, or who you are...
Statins work by crippling the liver.. You should have the liver checked often to guard against liver failure...
To top it off, cholesterol is the fuel for the immune system and the brain. Lower it and your immune system is weakened.. Not Good...
The "cholesterol theory (not proven)" is a hoax by the snake oil peddlers to make big money by selling statins and veggie cooking oils.
The Ducks love it as they get big kickbacks from the drug peddlers. Google "Cholesterol Myth" and read...
Transfats (Veggie cooking oils) is what is causing Heart disease not cholesterol.
The average world cholesterol level is 240 as measured by the UN Who.
The human race has got along quite well for thousands of years without the use of statin drugs..
The so called Heart Disease appeared with the advent of unsaturated (transfat) cooking oils and margarines in the last century... Several countrys in Europe are banning transfat oils.
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
Good morning,
I am not a doctor so take my ideas with a grain of salt, but I did study Naturopathy for over two years, and my lipids went wacko when I went through menopause, so I read up on this. This is just my opinion, but there are many docs who would agree now....
I also got much sicker when on statins (Lipitor). I could barely walk to the mailbox, the muscle pain was so bad. It dropped my LDL cholesterol to 80, which I no longer believe is a good idea. I agree that everyone should read "The Cholesterol Myth".
Or even better, read the actual Framingham heart study....it's an eye opener! The lazy Media, with the help of Big Pharma, has really taken that study out of context and twisted it into something unrecognizable. Two of the scientists from the project wrote a protest letter, which of course was buried....too embarrassing to the lazy reporters who did not bother to read the study before writing about it. The errors have been repeated so often, they are now considered gospel, and are unquestioned by most people.
I agree that cholesterol is a scapegoat, and a very profitable one it is too! This is similar to the problem with the Yale Lyme docs who can't admit chronic Lyme exists now because it exposes how wrong their opinions were for all these years....the cholesterol pundits can't admit they were wrong about cholesterol either or their reputations will be mud.
I think high insulin levels due to consumption of massive amts. of processed carbs that we are not evolved to deal with causes increased inflammation (CRP) which in turn causes heart disease. Eating less green veggies lowers folate, which raises homocysteine, another contributor to heart disease. Those things are far more important than cholesterol, which is benign unless oxidized. Anti-oxidants in fruits and veggies can help prevent that. Also, take Resveratrol to insure protection.
Everyone concerned about heart risks should have their homocysteine, C-Reactive Protein (CRP), and insulin level (or at least fasting blood sugar level) checked. You will probably have to pay for the homocysteine test yourself. If you can't afford it, just make sure you take plenty of folic acid and B complex, since that is the treatment for high homocysteine.
Dr. K says Borrelia causes a moderate rise in total cholesterol and a large rise in LDL. The reason seems to be that LDL actually has at least one good function, ie. it binds to endotoxins and removes them. Therefore, I think it is counter-productive to try to dramatically lower your high LDL if you have Lyme Disease.
(I think Marine will disagree with me on this, and I hope she will come and explain why so I can understand it!). Also, recent research I saw in my Heart Center Online Newsletter showed that in elderly women, high LDL is correlated with longer life! So,the myth is starting to crumble.
Lymies have supressed endocrine glands (actually, the entire HPA axis is down regulated). Your body uses cholesterol to make your endocrine hormones. So, if you want to get back your energy, your formerly faster metabolism, your stress tolerance, and your libido, the last thing you want to do is take statins!
Then there is the depletion of COQ10, mentioned before. Pfizer knows this, as they hold a patent on a statin with COQ10 added, but they are in the familiar position I mentioned above, ie. they can't put it out now, because that would be admitting they've been putting people at risk of congestive heart failure for years by selling statins without COQ10, and they could be liable for lawsuits.
News flash: Men and women are different! If you are a woman, your biggest risks are low HDL (below 55 - women need far higher HDL than men since our arteries are only 1/3 as large) and high triglycerides anyway, not total cholesterol and high LDL.
HDL can be raised with exercise and eating more of the good kinds of fats. I find nuts especially helpful, since they also provide Omega-3 fats. Triglycerides can be lowered dramatically by avoiding those processed carbs I mentioned earlier, and by taking fish oil, or preferrably, krill oil, which works far better than fish oil, IME.
If that is not enough, add non-flush niacin, taken all at once at dinner each night. Do not take timed release niacin, or several doses of niacin, it is too hard on the liver. The liver detoxes at night, so taking it at dinner and all at once helps your liver deal with it best. Get your liver enzymes checked every 6 months while on niacin.
Start with 500 mgs. of niacin, get tested after 2 months, and increase at 500 mgs. intervals, testing each 2 months until you get them within normal range or come to a max dose of 2,000 mgs. daily, whichever comes first.
By restricting myself to two, small simple carb treats per week to tame my sweet tooth, taking 1,000 mgs. of niacin at dinner each night, and one cap of Neptune Krill oil twice daily, I dropped my triglycerides from 489 to 88 and have kept them there.
I mentioned triglycerides and HDL too, since many with high total and/or LDL cholesterol also have low HDL and high triglycerides (Metabolic Syndrome), and the drugs to treat that are just as bad for you. They mess up your digestion, and bind to your fat soluable vitamins and carry them out before you can absorb them. (Please keep this in mind if taking cholestyramine for detox...supplement with vits. A, E and K).
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: The Ducks love it as they get big kickbacks from the drug peddlers.
True, so true. I took zocor for a brief time a year ago or so. My PCP prescribed it after he got me worried. It worked, my cholesterol dropped by atleast 50% in 4 weeks. A few months later he said that he wanted to change me to Crestor. I asked him why because the zocor seemed to be working. He said I think you would benefit more from the Crestor. Shortly after that I quit the statins altogether. Then it dawned on me, Zocors' patent was about to run out in 6 months and Crestor was new. Right before the appt. I remembered him talking with a Crestor rep. Instead of paying $10 for three months of generic the doctor wanted me paying full price for the brand name. Doctors are always looking out for their patients. There was no explanation other than that, the zocor was working according to him.
Last time I checked the top three drugs sold in the US were Lipitor, Norvasc, and Nexium. I wonder about these 30 years ago Cholesterol, BP, and Heartburn were not that prevalent. Coincidence though BP, Reflux, and Cholesterol are pretty common with Lyme.
quote: Dr. K says Borrelia causes a moderate rise in total cholesterol and a large rise in LDL
I have to agree with that statement my total Cholesterol was 210 but the LDLs were 179.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
Hi duke77, Yup! My total cholesterol before I got sick was 163, with an LDL of 117.
After getting Lyme, my cholesterol went up to 271, with an LDL of 207! (I know a woman whose Lyme is still completely untreated whose LDL is 275!)
After adding krill oil, and eating a lot more fats, at the advice of an alternative practitioner (yes, MORE fats, believe it or not!), my total is now 202, and my LDL is 151. Eating more fats (not transfats though!) also lowered my FBS into normal range for the first time in 8 yrs.
People with total cholesterol below 200 die 13.5% more often from all causes, including heart disease (from the famous Framingham Heart Study, though you never hear this on the news, do you? Could it be because Big Pharma are often sponsors of the news programs? )
I am satisified with my numbers now, except my HDL is still too low (genetic in my case). Even though my LDL is still supposedly "dangerously high" for normals, I think it may be one way the body helps cope with the way Borrelia uses up our cholesterol so we don't have enough left to produce hormones, and the way Borrelia produces all those endotoxins that need to be eliminated.
Big Pharma keeps lowering the "normal" numbers so they can put more and more people on drugs. They saw how successful they were with cholesterol and started in on lowering the "normal" blood pressure range too. I am old enough to remember when systolic pressure as you get older was OK up to "100 plus your age".
I know I speak for many with high blood pressure when I say that I feel better when I am in what used to be called the "borderline" range. After all, there is a reason why the body raises BP.
When my BP is as low as ducks and Big Pharma say it should be now, I drag around like a zombie wearing cement shoes, and I've heard this complaint from others without Lyme who have high BP as well.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks to EVERYONE who replied to my questions! Wow, there is much to be learned here.
I had my own doubts about the over-prescribing of statin drugs even before my PCP wanted me to take them. The way he reacted to my test results were akin to just finding out I had a terrible cancer!
I have noticed the disclaimers regarding statin drugs which say to report "any unusual muscle pain" to your doctor immediately. In my case, I was already having a LOT of muscle pain before. That made it harder to know what to do, but when my pain levels got up there close to childbirth I knew something wasn't right.
So I gather that most of you believe that statins are not necessary and that high cholesterol is not a particularly bad like we have been lead to believe.
I truly would rather rely on some posters here than listen to some drivel I hear from ducks anyway. I know most of you aren't doctors and are not offering medical advice, but you've done your homework and you have suffered so much from lack of diagnoses and treatment.
I intend to do some research about relationship between chronic illness and statin drugs. However, please continue to post if you have any experience or opinions about this.
I appreciate all of you so much!
Janet
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: No information presented above should be considered medical advice or take the place of advice given by a medical professional. Links to other sites are provided merely for ease of research. Posts: 287 | From Tennessee | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
This is what I learned over time from my doctor:
Cholesterol should be between 180-220, somewhere in there. That's my doctor's normal. It has a meaning if it is below: People don't produce hormones, their sex drive dies. At a level below 180, per his writings, the cancer risk goes dramatically up, and their sex drive and joy of life goes down.
Per Dr. K., over 220, it usually has to do with active heavy metal toxicity. Anything over 220 is his indicator: watch our for the metals; put them on a new program so the metals are moving through the system again.
With the hormones, he also looks at the cholesterol levels; and if the level is too low, he tests people for the different oils. Fish oil is usually number one.
Niacin is also, in cardiac care, the preferred substance to elevate the HDL levels, high density lipoprotein levels, It has a great effect in turning on the shuttle system across the cell wall for heavy metals. Dr. K. calls it reverse cholesterol transport.
A high cholesterol level protects us from neurological diseases. Cholesterol has to be high for detoxing. Cholesterol is a shuttle agent for the toxic material.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Excellent post Lymetoo. Excellent web site on the horrors of Statins..
In the book "Cholesterol Myth" the author tells of a study in Europe that has hard proof that women 60 and over have a high risk for breast cancer if their cholesterol drops below 260..
There are people who have cholesterol levels over 300 that live quite well with no problems...
According to Dr. Mary Enig,(University of Maryland expert in Fats and Lipids) there is no such thing as "good" or "bad" cholesterol.
It is just more hokem by the drug peddlers... (Dr. Enig's books are a great read, although a bit technical, Amazon has them)
By the By, DO NOT get into an argument regarding cholesterol with your Duck. You will be labeled at nut case. Just tell the Duck that the Statins drugs have too many dangerous side effects... (death is the biggest one)
Of course the Duck will be POed at you because he/she was so looking forward to the free Hawaiian vacation...
Tj
Posts: 192 | From Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Many of these drugs...in that class (cholesterol lowering) HAVE to be taken with CoQ10 as they deplete this enzyme (likely downregulate).
2 ways to INactivate an (acidic) enzyme: take a stronger acid (to "downregulate" it) OR counter it with the RIGHT mineral. If we counter it, this combo -> hydrogen. Little mineral/glycogen + charge PLUS acid, - charge -> hydrogen.
Hydrogen RAISES the pH. Hydrogen INactivates PFK...the rate limiting enzyme for glycolysis.
The Pharm. countries (misspelling intentional) KNOW this and have SAID they would add CoQ10 to the formulas, but so far have not.
Into a search engine, type in the name of your drug and the word, "depletes". Search, search, search.
I *suspect* CWD forms of Bb are "babies" and in order to make the cell walls (mature), they need lipoproteins which they might be getting from VLDL release from the liver. Very low density lipoproteins. This is WHY we have to INactivate an enzyme called HMG CoA reductase (to halt VLDL release).
To get cholesterol (which all our cells need) we then have to obtain the nutrients from our diets - UNsaturated fats. Those with NO/very little hydrogen.
We know Bb uses Mn. While we need very LITTLE of this mineral, too much is toxic.
IF Bb is being destroyed, IF large amts. of Mn are released, this MIGHT be triggering an acid to counter...specifically TNF alpha -> OUCH!
Bb has a PKC inhibitor. These INHIBITORS cause cell death. Specifically the cells that line the blood vessels and lymph vessels. The body, to protect those cells, yells for PKC, to "save the cell". Curious, but melatonin is saving our RBCs.
Too many cells dying too fast is really dangerous.
Meanwhile...our liver output of VLDL + calcium forms plaques along the blood vessel walls. This is a "bandaid" of sorts. Up goes BP. While protective, now it is harder for our circulating antibodies (what few healthy ones we have + our neutrophils which bind zinc) to REACH the infected cells.
Go SLOW...and yes, I'd lower the dose OR consider pulsing it or I'd switch to the "natural route". AND...be SURE to protect the kidneys...drink GOOD water. Even Pure Life from Nestle (Wally Mart) is okay. Gotta keep the kidney cells "flushed". Look closely at what Nestle added to the water.
Too many acids are really harmful to the kidney cells in particular since their job is to balance the pH.
Many of our drugs have to go thru the liver which is unfortunately already taking a hit due to ethanol (alcohol) as all spirochetes ferment sugar to ethanol. Add to that a choline deficiency, etc. and we are stressing our poor the liver to the hilt.
Vitamin E (acidic) and selenium (taken at mealtimes) will help protect the liver. See the combo (->H)? These 2 are powerful ANTIOXIDANTS.
To INactivate HMG CoA reductase, the mineral, Mg, works the same...safer, IMO. It works in conjunction with B6 (lactobacillus provide most of our B6), but still...
dosages and timing are very important.
Little, I repeat, a LITTLE, more often seems to help.
What is supposed to happen is this: we either get Unsaturated fats from our diet OR our liver releases VLDL -> LDL (lousy) -> HDL.
When the unsaturated fats go INTO the cells, they "capture" hydrogen. Then they become HDL. Think of HDL as full garbage trucks that return to the liver with a full load (it carries heavy metals too). Now it is broken down and the bile salts remove the heavy minerals.
IF we eat saturated fats, they are ALREADY full of hydrogen (minus the heavy metals) and this isn't good for us.
All of our cells need cholesterol. Cholesterol is used in all of our cell walls. It forms the myelin sheath to surround our nerves.
LOW cholesterol is a cancer marker. If you doubt, just type in "low cholesterol cancer" into the pubmed and read the many many articles about this.
Cholesterol is a problem WHEN LDL combines with high levels of circulating calcium that -> plaque buildup.
I am NOT a doctor. I am just someone who has been trying hard to piece together this extremely complex puzzle.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
If you are a woman, your biggest risks are low HDL (below 55 - women need far higher HDL than men since our arteries are only 1/3 as large) and high triglycerides anyway, not total cholesterol and high LDL. ![[kiss]](graemlins/kissing.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic