tdtid
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10276
posted
For three years I was doing Myers Cocktails with an N.D. before my Lyme diagnosis. It was this doctor that suggested I see an LLMD and get more extensive testing.
My LLMD is a husband wife team, one being a D.O. and the other an N.D. So basically I'm going the route of antibiotics and Dr. Zhang.
Today, my N.D. that is working with my LLMD suggested that instead of the Myers, I do high doses of Vitamin C IV's.
I did a search before posting and what little was said was that it may give you a temporary boost but it wasn't helpful and then the conversation got side tracked to yeast.
My question is that I had my first Vitamin C IV today, came home with diarehea and complete weakness. I am not in "trouble", don't need medical assistance and the doctor is gone for the day and not to a level I would call and ask anyway.
But I definitely feel like I'm zapped. While getting the IV (three hours worth) I was told the light headedness is due to the sugar leaving my blood and that it was a hypoglacemia type reaction which is why they had me eatting while getting it.
My question....has anyone don't the Vitamin C IV's along with antibioitics, in my case Amoxicillin 1000 3X's a day and then Zhangs protocol for babesia..ie the Allicin, Artemesia, etc.
Since this is out of pocket and $110 an IV, I don't mind the expense if this has any validity over the Myers. I believe other things were in with the C since he mentioned things in the Myers but just that Vitamin C is higher by a huge amount.
Any imput, feedback on personal experience or any of you scientist type people out there with ideas. Thanks for any help.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi Guys--I was just about to say the same thing about the dosage. My Nd/MD started me out at 25g over 45 minutes and we're meant to move from there.
I found vit C ivs give me more energy and are very effective against viruses. I haven't found it to be helpful against the Lyme yet, but imagine the overall boost it gives to the immune system is where the benefit is.
I would deifnitely cut your dosage in half--the diarrhea speaks to you having hit your bowel tolerance with C. You should not go past that point.
I would defintiely mention this to your doctor when you go back for your next one...
Very good luck to you,
Ashley Posts: 77 | From New York | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
My LLMD said that the vitamin C in high doses was good, but IV would run through your system too quickly. He prefers oral. We haven't worked up to megadoses yet, so can't tell you if it makes a difference.
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
If you do a search here on Vitamin C IV, you will get lots of input. I got Vitamin C IV (37.5 or 50 g of beet derived - not corn ) with cal gluconate and mag sulf many, many times during my heavy metal detox. Metals/mercury is mobilized with DMPS or other substance, followed quickly by IV C to help to clear the metals out. Described below. I never got it for any other purpose but heavy metal detox.
IV C - yes, you have to pee it out. But usually diarrhea is only associated with oral Vit C. It never gave me a problem. It was of immense help for detox of neurotoxins (metals, biotoxins, xenobiotics, etc.)
This is from one of my old posts:
When I hear Vitamin C - I think Linus Pauling. I am also always reminded of this lecture given by Dr. Klinghardt.
It was presented at the scientific meeting of the Great Lakes College of Clinical Medicine in Pa in 1997, entitled:
"The use of free electrons as "poor man's antioxidant therapy" and other uncommon uses of electricity in clinical medicine.
In living organisms, many oxidation/reduction reactions occur at any moment.
In general, oxidation reactions are catabolic in nature - they break down things: "oxydative damage" from sun exposure ages the skin, products of oxidation cause arthritis and inflammation, oxidized fats are "bad fats", oxidized gluathion doesn't do the magic - it is reduced glutathion only. Oxidized iron (Fe 3+) is implied with the causation of cancer, reduced iron (Fe 2+) is essential for our health. In this case, Fe 3+ means that this iron atom is missing 3 electrons in its outer shell in order to be stable, Fe 2 only 2, Fe 2+ is less electropositive (or more electro-negative). In short, products of oxidation are bad for our health and age us (even though many of them are a necessary part of our biochemistry.
Oxidants or oxydating substances are electron thieves. The opposite is true for reducing agents, also called "Antioxidants". Antioxidants are electron donors.
Vi8tamin C, E, b-Carotene, Selenium, reduced Gluathion-SH and many other nutrients and substances belong in this category.
Bob Cathgart MD, one of the pioneers in IV vitamin C therapy could show that vitam C exerts its antioxidant effect by giving off 2 electrons per vitamin C molecule. When we do a vitamin C flush or infuse high doses of vitamin C way above the RDA, we are not trying to substitute a malnourished patient with a vitamin - we are trying to pump electrons into his/her tissues to undo "oxidative damage" or more simply put - we are trying to supplement electrons.
Antioxidants or reducing agents have in general an anabolic tissue repairing effect. The citric acid cycle - those biochemical reactions in the mitochondria that are responsible for the formation of ATP, our body's energy fuel - is nothing else but a way to transport free electrons down a cascade of steps, which in itself produces energy: the electron is picked up by Vitamin E and selenium, passed on to Ascorbate, then Glutathione, then to NADH (from Vit. B3) to the folds ("christae") of the inner lining of the mitochondria, where the cytochromes such as Coenzyme Q10 reside.
Where to the electrons from from? They have to be delivered to the cell piggiback on atoms, moleculres and substances ("antioxidants") and in the form of free electrons. These appear when an electric field has traveled along a nerve and through its charge has "knocked off" an electron from one of several of the minerals in or at the cell membrane.
In recent decades, there has been an increasing shortage of electrons in our natural environment: xenobiotics cause oxidative damage (use up electrons), radiowaves and alternating electromagnetic fields (electromagnetic pollution) from household appliances, portable phones, etc. have been shown to consume electrons in living organisms.
Physical exercise is a generator for electrons through friction and motor nerve activity. We are a humanity less phsically active than at any other time before. The processing of foods often causes - but not always - oxidative damage.
The good news: refrigeration slows down oxidation. The gradual reduction of heart disease in Western countries has been conclusively linked refrigeration - not to cholesterol."
(the 1997 lecture continues leading toward the use of the "Electro Bloc" for pumping in electrons - and I will not post the whole lecture nor the references; today we use the KMT24, etc.)
I learned during my healing process that the IV Vit C flush following mobilization of mercury with other agents is done to give certain mercury its lost electron back, so that it can be moved along and, hopefully, out of the body.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
tdtid
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10276
posted
To answer the questions regarding how much IV C I had, I'm at a loss since everyone talks about grams and my doctor was talking CC's and I don't know how concentrated it was.
I was told that my original Myer's use to have 2 CC's of C and this new IV was going up to 40 CC's. Yes, there was other stuff in it.
I was told it was similar to my Myers with magnesium, various B's and a list I could never remember but in this case, we were mixing in the higher vitamin C.
Gigi, wow, impressive. I had no idea that "anti-oxidants" had a relationship to free electrons (or ions).
Thank you all for your help.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kelmo: My LLMD said that the vitamin C in high doses was good, but IV would run through your system too quickly. He prefers oral. We haven't worked up to megadoses yet, so can't tell you if it makes a difference.
Kelly
Hi Kelly, I believe the reason for taking IV vitamin C (as sodium ascorbate I believe it's administered?), is that IV allows you to reach higher plasma levels. Some doctors prefer to do the drip faster, some slower. I don't believe there's much research on vitamin c and lyme disease, but of course that means nothing (I take grams of it myself.)
It can be dangerous at higher levels because of the hypo-glycemic effects that can occur (as mentioned by someone on this post). Which is why you want to get it done by someone who has good experience with it, and can remedy a dangerous event.
I believe I read of some other thing that can occur, having something to do with lower back pain, in which something else was adminstered, other than that, it's supposed to be pretty safe! As far as oral, From what I've read, you want to space out your vitamin c dosing throughout the day.
-------------------- "You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum Posts: 242 | From South NJ | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Take a look at the high oral doses of the Salt & C protocol. www.lymephotos.com
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
tdtid
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10276
posted
Gigi,
Although I have heard quite a bit about Vit C and Salt, my particular LLMD isn't sold on that. With that said, I AM given the Vitamin C IV's, which has drawn up the question as to if this is a path worthy of persuing.
I'm told to do them weekly for about a month, then bi weekly and then routinely every month. I'm told there are other things in these IV drips that are similar to Myers Cocktails.
My question wasn't geared that I felt I was in need of medical attention since I wouldn't have been posting on the board. My question was if this reaction was "normal", perhaps something my body didn't agree with or could it have been something similar to a herx in that it gets worse before it gets better and I should suck it up.
I hope to talk to my N.D. tomorrow about this (he's working WITH my LLMD) since he's not in today, but my questions range from the fact that I'm in treatment now just a little over a month with Amoxicillin and Zhang. This Vitamin C IV was added.
Is there a different drip that I should be asking about since the N.D. seems very flexible within reason. Or is C a good choice this early in treatment?
I'm loving the scientific information coming from this and I also understand that treating lyme is about MUCH more than just the lyme and co infections.
I've been so sick and to be honest, I don't even know why the Vit C was suggested and my brain is in and out so much, I'm not comprehending information that I know is powerful knowledge.
I understand that so much is the unknown with this disease and a lot of experiementing. In the beginning, I felt an advantage going the antibiotics AND the naturopathic route with doctors in both.
Now I'm wondering what the heck I'm doing since I'm just going through the motions of what they say in hoping they know what they are doing. It's scarey when it's your life in their hands, but I don't have the knowledge even after reading anything I can get my hands on.
Would you say "yes" or "no" to the Vitamin C IV and if no, is there something you would use instead in the beginning phases. I was told my LLMD was working on the lyme and my N.D. would be building my strength to fight it.
On paper, that sounds good. In reality and how I feel, I'm ok with it, if this is indeed helpful, but if I'm on the wrong path, I do look for any and all opinions. Thanks.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
I just started doing an IV Rocephin recently, and my LLMD's plan is to add Vitamin C/Magnesium infusions as well as Glutathione infusions to my treatment (I believe they will be all separate infusions.)
Vitamin C/Magnesium should help boost my immune system.
She did say it would be a "progressive" Vitamin C w/Mag therapy, and I am guessing that means the dose will be increased gradually, although I don't know what the start dose would be.
Glutathione would help detox.
She is still observing how I am doing with Rocephin, so I don't know when I will start these supplemental infusions, but I think I would be doing Vitamin C/Mag once a week and Glutathione twice a week.
My LLMD is hoping these infusions would help reduce the level of my flare (or herxing) from taking IV Rocephin.
I feel protected by her, and that's why I feel good about getting these "extra" infusions, although I don't know how much/if my insurance would cover.
Good luck!
shizuko
Posts: 110 | From Northern Virginia | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cathy--boy do I know what you mean about just doing what you're told because processing info has become downright difficult--every facet of my life seems thrown by my inability to think. I feel like I'm heading into alzheimers at 31!!!
If you want a yes (worth it) no (not worth it) answer, I can just say for me it has been, so far. I found it much more helpful when I wasn't on abx, but that's probably because i was herxing so much that when I took it whilst on abx it didn't make that big of a difference for me.
When I took it without abx I felt absolutely fabulous from it. I just got off abx last week and hope the C will have the effect it used to on me...tons of energy, good mindset, general healthy feeling...
In any case, hang in there--something about the unknowns also means that there are a lot of alternatives to try. Never feel boxed into anything.
I think it's great you're seeing an ND as well as a LLMD--we should all be so lucky! i have no doubt that you'll negotiate your way through this, ill as you may be now...
Take very good care of yourself,
Ashley Posts: 77 | From New York | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I did Mag, C and a mixed "cocktail." I was herxing pretty bad at the time (b/c I had just started my ABX) but I do believe they helped me.
My levels were so low before I began them and increased as time went on.
My LLMD took the natural approach as often as possible.
They did become too expensive for me to keep doing them every week. But, I definitely got a kick start!
Posts: 240 | From MA | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh ya, I used to get "flushed" from the Mag, but the Dr. said that was normal.
I looked so healthy! Posts: 240 | From MA | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
tdtid
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10276
posted
Thanks again for all the guidance. It is sounding to me that perhaps I will need to tone my dose down perhaps a bit, but I will talk to the N.D. tomorrow about that and how to persue.
Yes, when I use to get the Myer's pushes, they were heaviest in Magnesium and yes, they made me feel warm all over. I didn't feel that as much when the Vit C was highest but it was there in a slighter amount.
I definitely hear you about all the alternative approaches and their expenses. Since I'm doing Zhang and abx with my LLMD and then the IV's with my N.D., most of this is NOT covered by insurance.
So my time doing this will be limited as well, so I guess we go as long as we can and make our sacrifices when we reach that point.
Ashley, you said the IV worked better once you were off the abx. If it isn't helping me with this "energy" and great feeling, is there a purpose for it scientifically?
Thanks again to all.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The usual amount of Vit C per CC is 500 mg. If you had 40 CC's, then that was 20 grams (same as 20,000 mg). That wasn't very much, but it is enough to put you in detox if you aren't use to them. Don't worry. It will pass, probably in a day or two.
My experience is that even at 75 to 100 grams that they won't kill lyme, Bart, or Babs. They will help your liver and immune system tho. They can interfere with abx and make them less effective. I don't know how it reacts with Amoxy, but C is definitely a no no with Flagyl or Tinidazole or Plaquenil.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
Vitamin C did nothing for me and I did a ton of them starting at 25 grams and on up to 100 grams, with minerals and other vitamins in it too. This was before I knew I had Lyme disease, and I was using them to kill HHV6 and EBV. The Vitamin C IV's did nothing but cost money, mess with my insulin, and burn my veins. I think small doses are okay, and certainly magnesium, and to supplement minerals after chelation. Other that that, the B vitamin injections work better, and the Vit C just gets excreted in urine. You can take it orally to bowel tolerance if you really want that much C. Be careful because it can mess you up.
IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)
![[dizzy]](graemlins/dizzy.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic