posted
New doc (an osteopath) wanted hubby to switch from Darvocet to Vicodin and also to take a muscle relaxant. The Darvocet could not be taken with the prescribed muscle relaxant hence the switch.
Remembered to start only one med at once. Talked to the pharmacist about drug interactions and even read the package insert. Remembered to start with a low dose. But I messed up and forgot to research the most important question -- How does the drug work? -- mechanism of action.
Hubby was only taking 2 Darvocet a day (scrip allowed 4). Waited 12 hours after last Darvocet and then took 1/2 of a 7.5mg Vicodin -- the first time with this med. Hubby slept fine until 4:15 a.m. -- about 6 hours.
Had his usual nightly shaking spell -- gave him 1 mg IV Ativan and he took the 2nd 1/2 Vicodin.
4:45 a.m. he was shaking in his sleep so hard the bed was shaking and it woke me up. Within a few minutes he had one of his temporary paralysis episodes with the claw hand etc.
It only took 1/2 mg IV Ativan to relax out his muscles so although I was worried we both went back to sleep. He has only had these temporary paralysis episodes a couple of times in the last 8 or 10 months -- the episodes which happened 1 -3 times daily for about a year had stopped after the IV Primaxin last spring.
The day started off badly when he was getting dressed at 8:30 a.m. and almost had a fall. Pretty much downhill from there with horrific muscle spasms and myoclonus and tremors and leg weakness and dry heaves and headache etc. 1/2 mg IV Ativan gave him a minor reprieve although the shaking didn't really stop.
11:00 a.m. is when things really went south. All the above symptoms plus sweating and temporary paralysis again. During the next 37 minutes I used all my tricks to keep him out of the E.R.
I ended up giving him the supportive supplements/meds as follows: 1/2 mg IV Ativan, 1 tablespoon liquid phosphatidylcholine, 1000mg IV push glutathione, 250mg IV push Magnesium sulfate, another 1000mg IV push glutathione, another 250mg IV push Magnesium sulfate and a 2nd 1/2 mg IV Ativan.
Hubby had 2 more similar spells later in the day which were less severe and resolved with 1/2 mg IV Ativan and 1000mg IV push glutathione each time.
New doc only told hubby she had never heard of a similar reaction to Vicodin and told us to use our own judgement as to what to do about future doses. As far as we are concerned hubby does not plan to ever take this med again.
Have not tried the muscle relaxant yet, and not sure we will at this point. Not sure yet if we will go back to this doc either. She was less grumpy than on previous appointment, but we were still undecided on her treatment plan for prolotherapy etc.
This is my best guess as to what happened with hubby. Discovered that Vicodin is an anticholinergic. It also has an effect on calcium channels.
As with most all psychotropic and many pain meds Vicodin acts on multiple neurotransmitters -- inhibits (blocks) substance p (pain), GABA, dopamine, acetylcholine and noradrenaline (norepinephine?) all.
Hubby has had similar reactions to other anticholinergic meds in the past (since Lyme symptoms) -- especially Artane which is an old Parkinson's med.
Have also concluded that the clawhand symptom is probably tied into either the calcium/magnesium channels or the sodium/potasium pump mechanisms in the body.
Has anyone else had adverse reactions to Vicodin -- especially tremors/myoclonus? If so, have you tried phosphatidylcholine to see if that helps?
One alternative possibility is a toxic reaction to the Acetaminophen (Tylenol) included in the Vicodin. However, all liver function tests are normal except for elevated Bilirubin and the dose would only have been 750mg total.
This is simply my opinion and should not be considered medical advice.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
The muscle relaxant which was prescribed is Norflex -- according to the package insert "adverse reactions are mainly due to the mild anticholinergic action... dry mouth, weakness, nausea, vomiting, headache... tremor, gastric irritation...."
Don't think we will risk trying out this muscle relaxant.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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trueblue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7348
posted
Bea, I dont know if this helps at all but I get a strange reaction to vicodin, nothing scary but...
It makes me feel like I'm going a hundred miles and hour, a half of one makes me want to vacuum the world. Not that I do.
I cannot sleep on them or percocet and they tend to leave me massively fatigued and mildly headachy afterward.
I would doubt a toxic reaction to the acetominophen portion of it. Darvocet has quite a bit more in it. I know Darvocet while it doesn't make me wired does tend to raise my LFTs likely from so much tylenol.
I hope tomorrow is a much better day.
-------------------- more light, more love more truth and more innovation Posts: 3783 | From somewhere other than here | Registered: May 2005
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Aniek
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5374
posted
Any chance your husband is having withdrawal from the Darvocet? Just something to think about.
Your husband seems to have such a complicated system at this point. I would not be surprised if has reactions many of us don't.
My only bad reaction from Vicodin was that it made me nauseous the first few times I took it. Not really related, and not as bas as your husband's reaction. But in it's disgustiness, maybe my story will make you smile...
Made the BIG mistake of taking Vicodin for the first time on a 9 hour flight. Thought I'd sleep the whole flight, instead I dry heaved for 6 hours.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by trueblue: It makes me feel like I'm going a hundred miles and hour, a half of one makes me want to vacuum the world. Not that I do.
I do not have any bad reactions to Vicodin. It has been my saving grace!
I can not sleep with out it b/c the pain gets so bad. It helps me through many days too!!
I do not feel "stoned" from it either, which is great!
But, I always noticed when I first started to take it that I wanted to CLEAN more.
The only reason I could explain it was that I was not in so much pain and actually able to function!
I had never heard anyone describe it like that (besides me) until now! Posts: 240 | From MA | Registered: Nov 2006
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
Bea, goodness, I'm so sorry hubby's had such an episode.
Can't add much except to say that if I take a Vicodin, I can practically set my watch for 20 minutes -- that's about how long till I have to go throw up.
I've tried on a full stomach, empty stomach, you name it..and I'm not remotely sensitive or allergic to any other meds in the world.
There's just something about Vicodin.
Hope hubby gets some relief soon.
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't know too much about Darvocet. But the symptoms you described do sound like symptoms I see in people withdrawing from certain drugs at the place that I work at.
I do know a lot of these pain medications are quite addictive. Vicodin is basically synthetic heroin.
Opiates get stored in the bone and muscles. The body also stops producing natural opiates, so when a people stop opiates they can feel like their body and brain are temporarily going through an electrical storm,
all their muscles get tight, and they tend to thrash around a lot in an attempt to relieve the awful feeling in their muscles and bones till they feel better.
Of course, many of us have days like that with Lyme anyway.
Lyme plus withdrawal from a painkiller would really truly be an awful experience, I suspect.
The two combined would be a huge stress on anyone's mind and body. Anyhow, I hope this is not what is happening, and I hope he feels better soon.
Farah
Posts: 208 | From New Mexico | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I can agree with what Farah said. There was a time I was on alot of Vicadin and when I stopped, my body went through withdrawal.
I tend to go through some sort of withdrawal when I stop any meds I have been taking for a while. Don't know if that is the Lyme or a normal bodily reaction.
Also, my BF has been very sick the past month or so. He was taking alot of Tylenol for a few weeks.
He stopped taking it because he said it was making him sicker.
Posts: 240 | From MA | Registered: Nov 2006
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
sorry bea. my reaction to vicodin and probably all narcotics is emergency room. i was baker acted sevral months ago because i took one with all my other meds and i went , beserk first , then went out on the floor. police placed me in a nice padded room for 48 hours. but it was quite there.
many peole with lyme also take many psycotropic drugs (pysch drugs) that are not well tolerated well together or with any alcohol. bad, bad things usually happen and can not be predicted. rage, psychosis, paranoia, suicidal thights, accidents if driving., deep dpression, alcohol is a depressant as are narcotics.
so drugs and drugs don't mix. remember the fry pan and the eggs, this is your brain on drugs????
docbarb
Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by seibertneurolyme: Hubby has had similar reactions to other anticholinergic meds in the past (since Lyme symptoms)
I read your message with great interest as I've also experienced severe problems from both anticholinergics and acetaminophen. In my case, both provoke the same symptom, something others call Bell's Palsy of the gut.
I have spent years trying to figure out the anticholinergic-acetaminophen connection without much success. No doctor has had a clue. To add to the puzzle, I get a similar (though less severe) reaction if I eat fruit (I've been suspicious somehow fructose is involved).
Meds and herbs that promote intestinal motility reduce the symptoms for me. Don't know how that would transfer to your husband's situation, but I can tell you that I totally relate to what you described.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Hi, I am really so sorry to hear the situation your husband is in, does not sound easy for sure. I do take Vicodin 10 , I just went up from the 7.5's that I was on for the past three years and I can also tell you they make the same med in many generic forms and not all are created equal even if they are supposed to be.
I Have not had adverse reactions and I also at times take these combined ith davocet which is a milder pain med. Still no adverse reations of noticable mention.I have had generics that do not help pain as well.
I take Vicodin every 6 hours around the clock which is 120 a month , recently had a prescription mix up over the thanksgiving weekend and couldn't reach a Dr. to get the misup straight.. thought I would never get thru but I managed /by using twice the darvocet to help makeup for it.
Heres how this is allowed for me.. If on rare occasion my pain is milder I can take just darvocet, if on like most days the pain is severe than I take Vicodin 10.0 x4 pills a day ( when on 7.5.'s they had me take 1- 1 1/2 4xday. if the Vicodin does not take the edge off the pain enough then I am allowed to add a darvocet to it.
I am functioning farily ok for the most part as long as I take pain meds without them after this long I would not even want to be around anymore but that is due to my pain level being constant and intolerable.
I have had a slew of other types of drugs that have caused severe anaphylactic reactions and that has been mostly in the Penicillian family of abx. I have even developed allergy to several abx. I was on and fine with numerous times in the past.
Of cousre there are the many abx. that I am still fine with and was on 15 months long term IV abx. . Different people react different to everything and It could also be the particular generic you received as well.Or another med- go to the eskerds online med. interaction guide via eckerds pharmacy and type in all the meds he is on daily and see hat is severe or moderate in conflict to help you determine..
I also want you to know there is a Vicodin drug without the tylenol added called NORCO - its the sames med as in vicodin but without the Tylenol .. my dr. was concerned that I was ingesting too much tylenol. and I was offered it instead but because of higher possible cost I did not try it., I have also been offered much stronger meds / but more addictive( MS contin / or Oxycodone recently and in spite of the pain I have chosen to stay at my current level of meds.
I think you are in a rough situation,and I think if darvocet is covering the pain adequetly and not causing issues than no need to change otherwise there are other alternatives to either of them - so sometimes the 1st one you try during a changeover may not be the right one but if he needs to change - don't give up there are others too..take care
-------------------- Sandi ( badkitti30043) Posts: 664 | From Atlanta Ga. | Registered: Aug 2002
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
almost every psychotropic med is anticholinergic some stronger than others.
vicodin as far as i know has no antichlinergic properties.
Definitely feel this was some sort of toxic reaction. Hubby had only taken around 15 Darvocet within 6 days so he was new to the whole pain med issue and I don't see how it could have been a withdrawal reaction.
Actually the post by DGuy was very interesting as hubby did have an abdominal series of xrays and they mentioned an unusual amount of stool. I think the G.I. pain may have been partially from that.
The IV glutathione helped greatly -- each dose seemed to lessen tremors/myoclonus. Normally I give him 500 or 1000mg daily -- had actually decreased this to every 2nd or 3rd day over the last month or two as he didn't feel like the glutathione was helping much anymore. The day after he took the Vicodin I ended up giving him 4000 mg of IV glutathione.
24 hours later he was able to ride for 4 1/2 hours to see an herbalist and for his bodywork appointment. Had another symptom attack 48 hours after the Vicodin and the bodywork massage therapist and his PCP saw some of the symptoms that normally don't act up at the doc's office (he is usually much more symptomatic in the middle of the night).
See my Eureka! post for some strange and startling discoveries made by the bodywork therapist.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Generic vicodin (Also called Lortab, little pink pils) makes me sick. As in throwing up ill. Its the binders in the drug, that make people ill. My mother is the same way (she takes name-brand vicodin for neck pain unrelated to lyme).
If this continues, you may want to try Percocet. Yes, its a little stronger but if you're not taking it every 4 hours, it probably won't bother your husband. Also, it makes me much less ill feeling than hydrocodone-based drugs.
Posts: 691 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by seibertneurolyme: Actually the post by DGuy was very interesting as hubby did have an abdominal series of xrays and they mentioned an unusual amount of stool. I think the G.I. pain may have been partially from that.
Bea - there's defintely a gut connection for me. After close to a decade of trial and error, I've found several things that help.
#1) propulsid - motility rx that with 24 hours completely relieves all my GI tract issues. Unfortunately, it was pulled because a few people taking it in combo with certain antifungal meds died.
#2) ginger - I take a capsule with each meal. There's a reason ginger is served with sushi: ginger inhibits parasites.
#3) herbal colon cleanser - best I've found is one named Experience
#4) "Comfree" with algin/pepsin - an herb sold under Solaray brand that improves digestion
This whole GI problem began when I took an anticholinergic rx years ago. Then it was worsened by acetaminophen. I've been in constant pain as a result for close to a decade.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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