about a month ago I came down w/an allergic reaction to something I was using and had the shakes, chills, muscle twitching, numbness/tinging in hands, fingers, calves and feet. I'm attributing it to a topical herbal I was using and caused all kinds of problems, as soon as I stopped using it things calmed down. Due to these weird symptoms I ended up getting a spinal tap done (cultured for lyme and MS both of which were negative). Also had MRI done that was clean.
Still not feeling well a month later - got a cold 3 weeks ago and ended up w/ sinus infection. Now and then I have tingling in my hands and twitching in my body, but I'm thinking this could be residual from the nerve reaction I had. I have also been extremely nervous lately and have been treated for anxiety in the past and know that some of these symptoms could be anxiety related. I so don't want this to be lyme so I'm making myself sick over it and am taking Lorazepam as I've been a wreck Reason being I can't take mostly any antibiotic, I'm so sensitive, and that's the only way to get rid of lyme if you have it right? What if someone is allergic to antibiotics and contracts lyme disease but can't tolerate the treatments???
Thanks for thoughts!
Thanks!
Posts: 46 | From RI | Registered: Nov 2006
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Bands 30 31 34 39 are very specific to Borrelia. I would suggest that it is very possible that Lyme is a part of your problem and would pursue further testing and investigation. Coinfections, CD57, etc.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
Was this IgM or IgG? Not that it really matters...! I agree with Scott.
Dr. C believes 58+ is a significant borrelia band also.
I'd be evaluated by an LLMD, if I were you.
Why do you feel you can't take any antibiotic? There are quite a few to choose from. You can start very slowly and build up.
If you DO have lyme, getting tested for coinfections would be a really good idea. Those can cause equally wicked symptoms.
Good luck!
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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MDL. I would consider your test POSITIVE, that is alot of bands.
You have many that are Bb specific as well. And any LLMD would treat you and consider it positive.
Read about the CDC guidelines in the newbie link and that will explain why your test is considered negative, it is simply so by their (CDC's) guidelines.
I agree with all the previous posters and especially in regards to coinfections.
I am curious about your reaction to antibiotics. Many people that have lyme will make the comment that they cannot tolerate antibiotics. It is due to the Herxheimer reaction they cause which means a worsening of symptoms due to the bacteria being killed off.
Hope you find a LLMD soon. And don't forget to take probiotics now and when you begin antibiotics to keep down the yeast.
Lyme x 9
Posts: 399 | From Texas | Registered: Apr 2005
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caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
SForsgren is right.
There are 4 things to consider here- some people can carry lyme and not get sick (lucky dogs!).
The tests are geared towards a specific bacteria called borellia b. There are others in the borrelia family which will cause lyme but may not show up on the tests for lyme or can show up as "equivical" or indeterminent ("ind"). An example of this is Borellia lonestari. I'm probley not spelling it right.
If a person has lyme and takes an antibiotic which is effective, then as the bacteria die they usually release toxins. The reaction to those toxins is called a herx. Some people confuse this as an allergic reaction to the antibiotics. Herxes can be painful and debilitating but they don't last forever.
And 4- I'm not sure you have the information on your spinal tap right as they cannot culture for MS and a lyme culture isn't done very often. Usually they look for white blood cells in the spinal fluid and do tests for adult spirochetes. Both lyme and syphilis bacteria are in the spirochete family.
If they were testing spinal fluid for spirochete bacteria, including lyme, then the test isn't very accurate. Lyme, and probly other spirochetes as well, tend to revert to what is called a cyst phase in spinal fluid. Cysts sort of act like eggs or hibernation cocoons. For some reason these cyst phases do not show on antibody tests and are almost always overlooked on direct observation tests.
So- there are no direct answers here, but a lot to think about. If it was me I'd look at myself very closely and honestly to see if there was any drop in my reading level or reading comprehension, any new problems with spacial perceptions, any chronic problems with fatigue or pain or rage or confusion, or any problems with comprehension.
If I was worried I'd read up as much as I could and go to a patient recognised LLMD or "Lyme Literate" doctor.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
your labs looked like mine. my 31 was +++ and my 34 was++. my llmd told me i was grossly positive. i read the 31 and 34 bands are what are being used to make a vaccine. that makes you POSITIVE.
find a llmd in your area asap!
Posts: 76 | From Kalispell, Montana | Registered: Dec 2006
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Beverly
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 1271
posted
You might find this interesting as well.
Explaining Borreliosis (Lyme) Western Blot Tests, by Dr. C
There is no universal agreement on what defines a positive Western blot. Good laboratories use different criteria to interpret borreliosis blots. At the 1999 international borreliosis and tick-borne infection conference, Sam Donta, M.D. lectured. Dr. Donta is a full professor of Infectious Disease at Boston University School of Medicine. He said that if a patient has just one borreliosis-associated antibody on their Western blot, you may assume they have borreliosis. Richard Horowitz, M.D. said the same thing in his lecture, at that same conference. Research I presented in 1998 involving over 400 borreliosis patients, showed an 87% response rate to antibiotics. This was if they had one borreliosis-associated antibody on their blot. So if there is enough suspicion that Lyme borreliosis is the cause of a patient's symptoms, so much so that a Western blot is ordered, then if only one borreliosis-associated antibody is found, it is significant!
Medical literature is replete with statements about false positive test results for Lyme borreliosis. Since 1988, I have diagnosed and treated well over 600 borreliosis patients. Only 2 of those patients with a positive borreliosis test did not respond to antibiotics. This is a 99% success rate! So in the trenches of day-to-day medical practice, false positive borreliosis tests are not an issue.
In retrospect, those 2 patients that did not respond to antibiotics may have also had babesiosis. In my practice, many borreliosis patients also have babesiosis, another tick-borne infection that causes the same symptoms as Lyme borreliosis. Babesiosis is caused by a protozoa, which is a different germ type than a bacteria, virus, fungus or yeast. The placebo effect would not explain a 99% response rate. Those borreliosis associated antibodies should not be there, in patients with symptoms. A placebo is like a sugar pill, that has no effect. A placebo effect occurs because patients believe in the pill they are taking, even though it is a sugar pill. The human mind causes the response.
Placebo effects should more likely be about 20-30%, not a 99% response rate. False negative test results are the real problem in diagnosing borreliosis. Research has shown that you have to do the right test (the Western blot), done at the right laboratory (one that specializes in testing borreliosis), and done the correct way (shipped express delivery early in the week). The right test to screen for borreliosis is the Western blot. Research I presented in Bologna, Italy in 1994 at the international borreliosis conference showed this. Other screening tests, such as the IFA, EIA, ELISA, and PCR DNA probe were often negative when the Western Blot was positive!
Other doctors like myself who diagnose and treat a lot of borreliosis patients, go straight to the Western blot as their screening test. Medical articles abound stating that it is best to do a screening test, such as an ELISA, and if it is positive, then confirm it with a Western blot. But the ELISA is often negative when the Western blot is positive so, the right test is the Western blot. *** It lets you see exactly which antibodies are present. The "right laboratory" means one that specializes in borreliosis testing.
In the past, I have done head to head comparisons with 3 different regular labs. Western blots were drawn and sent on the same day to 2 different labs. The labs that specialize in borreliosis testing typically found borrelia-associated antibodies, that the regular laboratories missed. If these specialty labs find a borrelia antibody, I trust it to be significant, because patients respond to antibiotics. **You get what you pay for, so use a lab that specializes in borreliosis. The right way to process the Western blot specimen means for the blood to be drawn and express mailed early in the week. Research shows the borrelia antibodies have the potential to clump together, resulting in false negative test results.
So far, unclumping has not been practical for laboratories to do. The fresher the specimen, the more accurate the test results. Patients at our office are scheduled Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday if testing is to be done. This way, express shipping will assure that the specimen does not spend the weekend sitting at the post office. This is the right way to test and ship borreliosis specimens.
Western blots look for antibodies. These antibodies are made by your immune system. In this case, the antibodies are made to fight against different parts of the Lyme bacteria, which is called Borrelia burgdorferi, and other Borrelia species. In other words, your immune system does not make one big antibody against the whole bacteria. So, when you see a number on a borreliosis Western blot, it corresponds to a specific part of the bacteria. Compare it to the old story of different blind people touching an elephant. Based on the part of the elephant each one touched, each person had their own perception. Likewise, the antibodies attach to different and specific parts of Borrelia burgdorferi.
Numbers on Western blots correspond to weights. Kilodaltons (kDa) are the units used for these microscopic weights. Think of it like pounds or ounces. An 18 kDa antibody weighs 18 kilodaltons. To do a Western blot, thin gel strips are impregnated with the various parts of Borrelia burgdorferi. Each of thenumbers, 18 through 93, on the test result form, is a part of the bacteria. Blood is made up of red blood cells and serum; Spinning blood in a centrifuge separates serum from red blood cells and other things, like white blood cells and platelets.
Serum contains antibodies made by the immune system. Electricity is used to push the serum through the thin gel strips for the Western blot. If there are any antibodies against parts of Borrelia burgdorferi present in your serum, and these parts are impregnated on the strip, the antibody will complex (bind) to that part. When antibodies form a complex, it is called an antigen-antibody complex. Anything foreign in the body is an antigen, such as a ragweed pollen particle, germ, cancer, and even a splinter. In the case of borreliosis, the various parts of Borrelia burgdorferi are all antigens. Though each antigen is different, they all come from the same bacteria. So all the numbers that are positive on the test report are due to antigen-antibody complexes.
If enough of the complexes are formed, eventually it may be seen with the naked eye as a dark band. - Band intensity reflects how dark or wide it is. Controversy exists about band intensity. Many would say the " +/-" equivocal bands are not significant. The problem I have with that, is that there are "-" negative bands. The lab has no trouble calling some bands negative. So they must be seeing something when they put "+/-" at some bands. The only thing that makes sense, is that there is a little bit of that antibody present in your serum. If the "+/-" equivocal is reported on the borrelia associated bands, it is usually significant, in my clinical experience. This is a strong clue that I am on the right track. Instead of ignoring these, they should be a red flag to keep pursuing a laboratory diagnosis. Giving patients 4 weeks of antibiotics (usually tetracycline, 500 mg, 3 times a day), will convert a negative or equivocal Western blot to positive in about 36% of cases. As mentioned, if these positive blots are found by specialty labs, over 99% of those patients will respond to antibiotics.
Sometimes multiple antibiotics have to be tried before the patient feels better. Antibiotics may actually help with the laboratory diagnosis. But patients need to be off antibiotics about 10 to 14 days before the Western blot is repeated. This sounds like a contradiction. Antibiotics may help convert the test to positive, but patients need to be off antibiotics when the specimen is drawn. It is well documented in medical literature that the presence of antibiotics may cause false negative borreliosis testing. Therefore, your system should be free of all antibiotics for an accurate blot result. When the Lyme borrelia are alive, they are geniuses at avoiding the immune system. They may do things like go inside your white blood cells, and come out enclosed by the cell membrane of your own white blood cells! This may partly explain why antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi are often not found when patients are tested. What may happen when patients are given 4 weeks of tetracycline (or other antibiotics) is that some of the bacteria die.
When Borrelia burgdorferi dies, it is less efficient at avoiding the immune system. That's when antibodies may be formed against Borrelia burgdorferi, converting the negative or equivocal Western blot to positive, in about 36% of cases. If a borreliosis Western blot is going to be positive, it is usually the first one that is positive. The second blot is the next most likely to be positive, and so on, until the fifth blot. After that, the curve levels off for conversion to positive. This is based on research I presented in Bologna, Italy in 1994. Some patients had borrelia-associated antibodies finally show on their tenth Western blot!
Two Western blots from a reliable lab usually gives the answer. If a third test is needed, a Lyme Urine Antigen Test (LUAT) is done instead of a third Western blot. Positive LUATs correspond very highly to patients getting better with antibiotics. False positive LUATs have not been a problem in my practice. The LUAT finds the actual antigen (Borrelia burgdorferi itself), so arguably it should be the test of choice, but the Western blot is rn6re widely accepted, even though it looks for the antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi. The presence of antibodies are indirect evidence of an infection, not direct evidence like shown in the LUAT. On the Western blot test result form, please note what is "considered positive" and "considered equivocal." Equivocal is another way of saying suspicious or almost positive. Below this are the ASTPHLD/CDC recommendations. The CDC stands for the Center for Disease Control. I have been in attendance at the international borreliosis conferences when the CDC said their recommendations are for disease surveillance, not day-to-day clinical medical practice. I am not in the business of disease surveillance. My job is to try to help sick people.
The CDC recommendations do not include the 31 and 34 Kda bands of the blot test. These two bands correspond to outer surface proteins A and B respectively (ospA and ospB). In the world of borreliosis, these are two of the classic hallmark Lyme antibodies. But the CDC does not even have them in their recommendations.
You may see why I and other borreliosis clinicians do not agree with using the CDC criteria in everydaymedical practice. Other bacteria besides Borrelia burgdorferi may produce the 45, 58, 66, and 73 kDa bands. These bands may be produced by Borrelia burgdorferi, but are not nearly as specifically associated with Lyme borreliosis as the starred bands. These starred bands are classic hallmark borrelia-associated antigen-antibody complexes. **An example of the CDC's criteria of a blot test, is if a patient has the band pattern of 41, 45, 58, 66, and 93, the CDC would call it positive. But if a patient has a 23-25, 31, 34, and 39 band pattern, they would call it negative. This is despite the fact that this second pattern of antigen-antibody complex bands is much more specifically associated with Borrelia burgdorferi than the first pattern.
As you can see, borreliosis is very controversial. It would be alarming if I was the only clinician who thought that the CDC recommendations should not be used for day-to day medical practice. Many borrelia clinicians do not use the CDC criteria. This is obvious by the fact that the IgX laboratory uses different criteria for positive. Again, in my opinion and others', even one borrelia-associated antibody is significant, if symptoms exist. The classic triad of symptoms for borreliosis is fatigue (tiredness, exhaustion), musculoskeletal pain (joints, muscles, back, neck, headache), and cognitive problems (memory loss, trouble concentrating, difficulty remembering what you read, depression, disorientation, getting lost).
But there are about 100 symptoms on the borreliosis questionnaire I use. Borreliosis may mimic or imitate virtually any disease. Patients often tell me that other physicians they have seen use the CDC recommendations. This is unfortunate, in my opinion, since these physicians are not in the business of disease surveillance, like the CDC is. But I am biased. After seeing patients with borreliosis since 1988, attending many conferences, talking with experts, and doing research on borreliosis testing, there is absolutely no question in my mind that physicians need to not blindly accept any recommendations.
One of my hopes is that doctors will someday realize that this controversy is a signal for them to search for the truth. Why is there such conflict in this very "political" disease if there is not substance for disagreement? Both IgG and IgM Western blots should be done for borreliosis. With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years. Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots. But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies. Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.
Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both. Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa. Since this is a chronic persistent infection, this does not make a lot of sense to me. A newly formed Borrelia burgdorferi should have the same antigen parts as the previous bacteria that produced it. But anyway, from my clinical experience, these borrelia associated bands usually predict a clinical change in symptoms with antibiotics, regardless of whether they are IgG or IgM. In regard to the outer surface proteins, think of it like the skin of a human. On the outer surface of the Lyme bacteria are various proteins. As they have been discovered, they have been assigned letters, such as outer surface proteins A, B, and C. The following is a brief explanation of the test results.
Again, each band is an antigen complexed (bound together) with an antibody made by the immune system, specifically for that antigen (part) of Borrelia burgdorferi. 18: An outer surface protein. 22: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein C. 23-25: Outer surface protein C (osp C). 28: An outer surface protein. 30: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein A. 31: Outer surface protein A (osp A). 34: Outer surface protein B (osp B). 37: Unknown, but it is in the medical literature that it is a borrelia-associated antibody. Other labs consider it significant.
39: Unknown what this antigen is, but based on research at the National Institute of Health (NIH), other Borrelia (such as Borrelia recurrentis that causes relapsing fever), do not even have the genetics to code for the 39 kDa antigen, much less produce it. It is the most specific antibody for borreliosis of all.
41: Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria have flagella. This is the most common borreliosis antibody.
45: Heat shock protein. This helps the bacteria survive fever. The only bacteria in the world that does not have heat shock proteins is Treponema pallidum, the cause of syphilis.
58: Heat shock protein. 66: Heat shock protein. This is the second most common borrelia antibody. 73: Heat shock protein.
83: This is the DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi. It is the same thing as the 93, based upon the medical literature. But laboratories vary in assigning significance to the 83 versus the 93. 93: The DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi.
In my clinical experience, if a patient has symptoms suspicious for borreliosis, and has one or more of the following bands, there is a very high probability the patient has borreliosis. These bands are 18, 22, 23-25, 28, 30, 31, 34, 37, 39, 41, 83, and 93. This is true regardless of whether it is IgG or IgM.. But again, there is (no universal agreement) on the significance of these bands.
Betina Wilska, M.D. from Germany is one of the world's experts on outer surface protein A (31 kDa). At the international borreliosis conference in Vancouver, British Columbia, I asked her personally about the 30 kDa band. She told me it was the same as the 31 kDa band (osp A). When you have the opportunity to talk to borreliosis experts, this helps in assigning significance to findings, on an imperfect test. As a medical doctor, I am stating all of this with no axe to grind, no professorship to protect, and no preset opinions. Patients, personal research, and conferences have helped me interpret the borreliosis medical literature in regard to testing. Nobody would like to have available a bullet-proof, 100% reliable Lyme borreliosis test more than I would. But we must use what is currently available. I always welcome second opinions.
Posts: 6638 | From Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by leogrl54: your labs looked like mine. my 31 was +++ and my 34 was++. my llmd told me i was grossly positive. i read the 31 and 34 bands are what are being used to make a vaccine. that makes you POSITIVE.
find a llmd in your area asap!
Do you know why band 31 and 34 are not used in the CDC criteria? Is it because of the vaccine?
I had my results last week. Igenex IgM: 31 kDa IND 34 kDa IND 39 kDa IND 41 ++
Igenex IgG: 31 kDa ++ 34 kDa IND 41 kDa ++ 66 kDa +
Posts: 263 | From UK | Registered: Mar 2006
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