posted
Everyone, I believe this is an important discussion. Dr. D, practicing in the Lyme field for 25 years, and the author of many scholarly articles says that there is research suggeting that B vitamins feed the Lyme bacteria and he suggests that you do not take them. This is important because prior to working with him, another supposed Lyme expert had me injecting myself with high dose B12 shots daily. Talk about misinformation. Good luck! erin
[ 20. December 2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: erinbaba ]
Posts: 11 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Dec 2006
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Thanks for this information. I think it really goes to show how very little we know about Lyme.
What about different forms of B vitamins? Some are sublingual and may get to our cells before the Lyme gets to them.
On a side note, people with yeast problems have to be careful with CoQ10. The yeast changes it into a form that is not usable by the body. So you are wasting your money.
Kayda
Posts: 582 | From midwest | Registered: Nov 2006
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Then why do I have more energy when taking a good B supplement, and think more clearly when taking a small amount of CoQ10?
I just don't know what to think about this.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Good question, Tracy. When I was taking the B12 shots, I felt more energy initially but my other symptoms persisted and actually worsened - headaches, walking, cognitive function.
My doctor report states "she will discontinue multivitamins to avoid further feeding of the bacteria which require B vitamins to survive and are unable to make their own. She will also discontinue the intramuscular B12 shots for this same reason."
I have to trust him because when I did stop taking the vitamins I felt much better. Plus he's one of the few treating physicians having done extensive research in the field.
/erin
Posts: 11 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Dec 2006
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AZURE WISH
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 804
posted
Lots of people and "experts" have theories...
that doesnt mean they are right... or apply as a universal.
posted
This is very controversial - My B vitamins have been tested to be extremely low - especially b-1. If you research the info on cronic low b-1 you will see some very important information. The deficency of b-1 can casue many symptoms that would mimic lyme and there is also concerns of brain damage.
Posts: 582 | From milwaukee wi | Registered: May 2005
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posted
All of my B vitamins are low and I personally think not treating B vitamin deficiency is more serious than giving the bugs another vitamin to snack on.
Posts: 263 | From UK | Registered: Mar 2006
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Dr. K's recommendations are - and that's pretty much what I followed: NOT to take oral B Complex vitamins, because the gut parasites get most of them and we get what is left over. The parasites multiply that much more in that case.
I have always taken B6 or the equal P5P by mouth. Also sublingual B12 is okay. Other than that, We were taught to inject all B Vitamins needed IM, and that caused no added problems.
For some people it is very important to get some of the missing B's, because without them, healing is pretty tough.
Take care.
[ 21. December 2006, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
Bizarre, B vitamins have only helped me get well. Where is the evidence?
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This topic has been discussed in the past. Dr D is just about the only doc who says for Lymies not to take B vitamins.
In my personal opinion if one were to avoid all nutrients said to feed the Lyme then you would die long before the bacteria did -- or would wish you were dead due to your severe neurological and psychiatric symptoms.
Do you take magnesium or CoQ10 (reported to feed babs)?
Marnie can give you the list of all the nutrients used by Lyme better than I can.
Obviously some people have higher nutrient requirements than others and some people have been sick longer and others have higher bacterial loads. There is no one standard set treatment that fits everyone.
Good luck with your treatment.
If you don't seem to be getting well you might want to check into coinfections in the future as I don't think your doc treats them either.
If you were lucky enough to catch your infection early -- maybe 1 to 6 months after infection you might be able to get well without too many supplements if you are lucky enough to only have Lyme without coinfections and severe complications.
This is my opinion and not medical advice.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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I think go with what works for you. This is such an individualized disease that I don't think any of us can put a blancket statement concerning treatment. As an example look at how many people fail on one abx., yet many others experience improvement.
Just my thoughts and not intended as a "slam" against anyone.
Happy and healthful holidays .
Travlr1
Posts: 66 | From West Coast | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Anemia from Vit B12 deficiency can be a serious issue and needs to be addressed. Serious vitamin B12 deficiency is known to cause permanent neurological damage. Vitamin B12 is neuroprotective. The benefits of B12 are very well documented.
Since I started my B12 injections recently I am feeling a little better. I also take oral B complex.
-------------------- Some day, this mamma's gonna dance! Posts: 199 | From here | Registered: Apr 2005
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Hey there ERINBABA...I think you should change your post topic to read something like...is vitB good for us or Bb...
There has been much discussion but no proven fact that Bb or coinfections actually utilize supplements we ingest or inject.
Dr D has my respect but I don't always follow his protocol... I also did well on vitBcomplex50's and better on 100's.
One has to...with this disease....try different stuff all the time and go with what makes the individual feel better....no matter what the ducks or llmd's tell you...
WE HAVE TO BE OUR OWN BEST JUDGE HERE!
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
The B vitamin controversy is an interesting one!
Before I had Lyme, I went to a nutritionist who suggested that B vitamins fed the yeast beasts in candida.
Never had to stop taking them, because I couldn't ever keep them down... vitamins seem to wreak havoc on my gut.
I'm not a convert to the idea, but I'm not dismissing it either!
Best,
TORI
Posts: 508 | From Banks of the Hudson | Registered: Jul 2006
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
It surprised me to learn that some B12 injections include mercury. You might ask your LLMD or pharmacist about this. It could account for why you felt better when you stopped. Not sure. Just a thought.
I have to say, too, that I think B vitamins are too important to stop taking. But we each respond so differently to different treatments, supplements, etc. Trust your own experience.
Hope things go well.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
I know that my daughter follows the controversial "no supplemented magnesium" theory. It has been very helpful to her.
Now, we are sure she is getting magnesium. All she has to do is eat a vitamin fortified cereal or a breakfast drink. But, we aren't adding it to her already plethera of oral pills. And staying away from epsom salt has been a major great decision.
As for vitamin B. We were just discussing it the other day. So, I'm glad you posted. It gives me something to think about. And it seems that to bypass the gut would be the best way to handle it.
I agree with one of the previous posters; each of us are on a unique journey. What applies to my daughter (primarily two strains of bart) may not apply to others.
We hit and miss and educate our own doctors, I'm finding. This is a scary place to be, huh?
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Magnesium is a mineral, not a vitamin. Fortified cereals do contain both vitamins and minerals.
We need water, sunlight, oxygen, vitamins, minerals and amino acids (building blocks of all proteins)...all in the right amts. to be healthy. Exposure to pathogens (they are all parasites)and toxins in our environment throw off this balance.
Mg is attached to our energy carrier, ATP, as Mg-ATP. This is why testing Mg levels is "harder". It is INTRACELLULAR...inside the cells. Not a "lot" is in "general circulation".
Without enough of this mineral, which has so many functions, one cannot "hold onto" K and eventually Ca will drop too. First they will rise. Our bodies will use our most abundant mineral, Ca, from our bones, to maintain our highly controlled pH level.
It TAKES Mg and Ca to make healthy antibodies...our own highly targeted immune system fighters. If the numbers of antibiodies are not high - too many are "damaged", the body WILL find another way to fight.
And we know, for FACT, that the antibodies specifically designed to destroy Bb are damaged...the "fab" portion. Damaged antibodies do NOT work. Once more...restoring the balance of Mg and Ca, restores the "health" of those highly targeted antibodies.
I have documented the above statements many times. (mds' website explaining the functions of Mg and the latter...a Pubmed abstract).
Mg works hand in hand with B6...but all the Bs work together...as do all the nutrients.
Which makes it really tough.
Whether or not abx. cause Bb to go into the inactive cyst form (it can change forms within a 20 minute time frame) OR cause Bb's cell wall to be "altered" (proteins "hardened" or mutated) and thus the symptoms lessen (we "respond" to the lipoproteins in Bb's cell wall)
versus
do antibiotics actually DESTROY this pathogen in a similar manner to our OWN defense system (our OWN antibodies)
is debatable.
Testing for Bb is notoriously inaccurate, so how do we know for certain what happens in a living person, not what happens in a (controlled)lab petri dish (when they grow Bb in a nutrient base and then add antibiotics to see if Bb is destroyed)?
Please note: the primary electrolytes needed by us to stay healthy are: K, Na, Ca, and Mg...and of course many others in trace amts.
Bb uses Mn, NOT Mg. Bb uses MANGANESE for many functions. It needs choline. ALL gram negative pathogens are missing acids.
HIV uses Mg...which makes that virus MUCH worse, but many of the same symptoms happen (co-infections, "autoimmune", etc.) primarily because in a pinch, the body will use Mn to substitute for Mg...so there is a strong "similarity".
Weigh the risks...that's all I am saying. Antibiotics can have serious "downsides".
If we want to prevent Bb from forming its lipoprotein cell wall (step one in how to lyse a gram negative pathogen), it looks like the cholesterol lowering drug class maybe a better option, IMO.
With that class of drugs, MANY websites indicate CoQ1O supps. are necessary as those drugs typically deplete that critical enzyme.
IMO...a far safer choice is Mg to INactivate HMG CoA reductase.
We know how our body responds to this disease...it appears to use stores of Mg and vitamin E specifically to FIGHT.
IMO, it looks like we don't have enough to "spare" fast enough (depending on pathogen load as well as the presence of co-infections that tag along).
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Great info Marnie...
Hey...can you tell me WHY I got a rash from Zocor and muscle pain from Lipitor...
I do and my family has ALWAYS had HIGH triglycerides...
I did'nt become obese until the lyme slowed me way down.....
now diabetes too....
Which if I did'nt have the fatigue and Pain everytime I try to Move off the couch....
I believe I could get rid of the diabetes...
zman......you can pm me if you like.....
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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