posted
Ineed some help from those who have a lot of drug sensitivity/stomach issues. My Dr. wants to treat for hypercoagulation in hopes of deceasing migraines.
I did have fairly good results when on heperin for blood clot due to poor picc-line insertion last year.
She wants to try me on Plavix but that doesnt sound promising for stomach issues. She also mentioned Nattokinase if I cant tolerate Plavix. Any suggestions?
Cindy
-------------------- Cindy Posts: 227 | From VA | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jellybelly
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Hi Cindy, If you are talking about the kind of hypercoagulation that chroically ill people like us experience that I don't think (and I am not a doctor) that Plavix is the drug that would work best. I think Plavix works on platelets. Actual problems with blood "clotting" due to platlets sticking together is also called hypercoagulation at times.
The hypercoagulation issue that is often spoken of here is due to an excess of fibrin, which is a totally different part of the clotting cascade. Most doctors treating this form of hypercoagulation also known as ISAC Syndrome use heparin because it disolves this excessive fibrin buildup and cleans up the blood. Because heparin is usually taken by injection, then your stomach wouldn't be a problem. Heparin can also be gotten in troches and I was given it in a nasal spray which worked great.
There are many doctors who are starting to recommend some of the medicinal enzymes which seem to work really well. Nattokinase is one at the top of the list. There is also Rechts-Regulat which many use. I have been on the Natto now for about 3 years, and at my last testing, I was smack dab in the middle of normal still. That is after 3 years of heparin.
Some people do have some problems with the natural options since they do go to your stomach and they are enzymes. But you can always start very slow to see how they are tolerated. There are numerous other advantages to using the enzymes besides the fact that they remove fibrin.
Knowing exactly the kind of hypercoagulation your doctor is trying to treat would be the first place to start though.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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Also, someplace you can start is just taking baby aspirin. Safe and over the counter.
I'm rather curious about this fibrin hyper coagulation. What are the symptoms? Are there any tests to indicate this, or is it another "You have these symptoms and we have a theory, but there are no tests, so just do this and see how you feel" kinda thing that comes up too often in lyme treatment for my liking.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Blackstone: Good advice.
Also, someplace you can start is just taking baby aspirin. Safe and over the counter.
I'm rather curious about this fibrin hyper coagulation. What are the symptoms? Are there any tests to indicate this, or is it another "You have these symptoms and we have a theory, but there are no tests, so just do this and see how you feel" kinda thing that comes up too often in lyme treatment for my liking.
Not sure if I understand what your talking about, but there is a test to check your fibrin levels. Mine came back very high while on warfarin. So I am now on Heparin.
Kathy
-------------------- You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have. Posts: 807 | From South Dakota | Registered: Jul 2005
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Carol in PA
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Cindy, I treated myself with systemic enzyme therapy, after an educated guess that some of my problems may be due to hypercoagulation.
I didn't get results from Serrapeptase, so I tried Rutozyme. No results there either.
I tried Wobenzym, and after a week or so, I noticed a reduction in headache pain. This was significant for me, because I had been trying to reduce the headaches for several years, and had tried so many things.
You need to take Wobenzym on an empty stomach, so that the coated tablets pass into the intestines intact. About 25% of the active ingredients get absorbed through the gut wall. The rest act as digestive enzymes.
I've been taking 12 tablets first thing when I get up, and wait half an hour before I eat. When I ran out, I did notice a difference.
I did consider switching to Rechts Regulat, but that is a liquid that needs to be refrigerated, and the tablets are more convenient.
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jellybelly
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Blackstone, this form of hypercoagulation isn't just theory anymore. There is actually quite a bit of good research on it now and the majority of our doctors are on board in believing it is a problem many of us encounter.
Here is a link to a thread I posted way back in July. It has quite a bit of research info in it: link to hypercoagulationPosts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Blackstone: Also, someplace you can start is just taking baby aspirin. Safe and over the counter.
I had the same thought since aspirin does thin the blood. Something I don't like is the approach seems to be treating the symptom rather than the cause, however if thinning overly-thick blood allows for better oxygen flow, that alone may promote healing.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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Jellybelly
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If we are talking about fibrin then baby aspirin won't do the trick. Like Plavix, it works on the platelets, it prevents them from sticking together, doesn't really remove the fibrin.
There are a multitude of reasons to treat hypercoagulation. As was just mentioned having your blood carry more oxygen is a huge plus.
The problem with the fibrin is major though. It coats everything with a Teflon like coating. This coating prevents meds from reaching their targets. Heparin and the enzymes are known to intensive the effects of many medications, very noticable with ABX.
Fibrin has a good purpose, even in healthy people. It will wall of infection. But when the infection is chronic and all over your body then fibrin just accumulates in your blood, lining the viens and shielding pathogens from our immune system.
Do check out the link I posted above.
One last thing, it has recently come to light that heparin my inhibit Babesia ALL BY ITSELF. There has been an excellent study reported on PubMed and it has been posted here. Just do a search on heparin here.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Jellybelly did a great job of explaining the need to treat hypercoagulation.
These are the enzymes my doctor uses, in order of preference Lumbrokinase (ARG) Carnivora MegaSeraSilk Bromelain (from Vitamin Research Products)
In order to keep costs down and prevent allergy formation, two or three of these enzymes are usually rotated.
Posts: 628 | From the south | Registered: Dec 2005
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Why do you take all of the Wobenzym at one time? Is there an advantage?
I bought this supplement for inflammation, have tried taking three tabs twice a day but have noticed marginal improvement.
Thanks, Cindy
Posts: 23 | From Camp Hill. PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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SForsgren
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I have used Heparin and Rechts-Regulat and prefer the Rechts-Regulat by far. I no longer use heparin and overall, it was a bad experience for me. RR is a good product. More info at biopureus.com.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Carol in PA
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quote:Originally posted by 3 limes: Why do you take all of the Wobenzym at one time? Is there an advantage?
I bought this supplement for inflammation, have tried taking three tabs twice a day but have noticed marginal improvement.
Cindy, I should probably take another dozen tablets later in the day, but I rarely have an empty stomach. Hah, no will power when I'm hungry.
When I googled for Wobenzym and systemic enzyme therapy, I found an article that said that the doctors gave large doses to force the therapeutic response.
Bea Seibert has mentioned that her husband's LLMD instructed him to take eleven tablets in the morning.
I suspect that your dosage is not high enough to provide positive results.
BTW, I got information from another member at LymeNet regarding the use of cat's claw and Wobenzym to treat Lyme Disease. Dr. Stephen Sinatra had written about this in a newsletter.
You can also google for information regarding the use of Wobenzym with antibiotics for treating Lyme.
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I use the Boluoke brand of lumbrokinase which my doctor recommends. I've read that it's supposed to work better than nattokinase, and the Boluoke brand is supposed to be best.
It is expensive, but you can search online and find it for a lower price.
Good luck. Hopeful4
Posts: 873 | From WA | Registered: Dec 2005
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GiGi
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posted
Rechts Regulat is by far the easiest for us to take and very effective. And no more pills or capsules. The bottle sits right next to the toothbrush. One little sip and that's the end until another sip at bedtime brushing. And it does a lot more in every body department.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Wow, so much info and so many products. I think I would not try Rechts Regulat because anything fermented gives me migraines.
So, that leaves Nattokinase,Lumbrokinase, or Wobenzyme. Anyone with stomach issues tried more than one of these? They are expensive, and I dont want to waste anymore money. Thanks for your help, Cindy
-------------------- Cindy Posts: 227 | From VA | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Serendipity, Thanks for the heads up. I do sometimes react to soy. I guess that means no Nottokinase. At least I'm narrowing my choices! Cindy
-------------------- Cindy Posts: 227 | From VA | Registered: Sep 2005
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david1097
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If you want to try a seemingly potent anti coagulant next time you have a migrane... (and this is not joke I am telling here) Go to a local fish restaurant and order fresh lobster (the ones you pick from the tank).
There are many old acounts of lobster meat (fresh lobster only) having a potent and short term anticoagulant effect. I did not believe this at first so I tested several times and was able to get my PICC line site to bleed EACH TIME.
The bleeding only lasted a few hours but the effect was repeatable. I first did not know of the effect until it happend the first couple fo times. I researched it and found the association and subsequently tried it again (a few times)
This was thought to be a old wives tale but it seems to work. Give it a try if you like. I did it with boiled lobster. Frozen lobster does not seem to have the same effect.
Posts: 1184 | From north america | Registered: Feb 2003
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Carol in PA
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I found this old thread about hypercoagulation, and wanted to update.
I'm still taking Wobenzym, but the new formula is not as effective for me.
Fish oil with high EPA also "thins" the blood, reduces inflammation, and is reducing pain and headaches for me.
I finally ordered Rechts Regulat. The price has come down, and I found a vendor who did not charge for shipping. (I'm so cheap, haha.)
I didn't notice anything much, until I realize that I was feeling worse. Perhaps I was herxing?
When systemic enzymes strip fibrin, the white blood cells can find and eat the Lyme bacteria. So you herx.
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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karenl
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I only take fishoil and vitamin E? Is this not enough. I was on Plavix but my LLMD said fishoil and vitamin E is enough?
Carol, could you pm me the vendor for the rechtsregulat, I want to order it.
Posts: 1834 | From US | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
Is hypercoagulation associated with biofilms???
Just learning about hypercoagulation and seem to think they're related.
-------------------- You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.'
---Eleanor Roosevelt Posts: 748 | From somewhere | Registered: May 2010
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quote:Originally posted by AlanaSuzanne: Is hypercoagulation associated with biofilms???
Just learning about hypercoagulation and seem to think they're related.
- YES!!
carol .. yes, you can herx with the fibrin being cleared out. If you're still on abx, it (heparin, rechts, wobenzyme) will also help the abx get deeper into the cells.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Carol in PA
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quote:Originally posted by karenl: Carol, could you pm me the vendor for the rechtsregulat, I want to order it.
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