Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
Hoping maybe you experts can shed some light on these questions:
How long does it take cysts to return to `chete form?
How long do these cysts survive when someone is taking high doses of amoxy?
I had to stop abx recently to allow my gut to heal, after two weeks of something like cholera.
My llmd said to stop abx, and I was very unhappy about this because I've been feeling so much better after 5 months on abx.
I was hoping that 5 months on high doses of amoxy and doxy would have brought about some lasting improvement....
But lo and behold, two weeks off the abx and many old nasty lyme symptoms that had abated returned, in large measure!
Since I was only on amoxy and doxy, I am guessing that the cysts just woke up from their long nap once I stopped taking amoxy and said --- Good Morning! Didn't take long.
Several months ago I tried taking flagyl for 3 days, but had awful side-effects and had to stop that too.
How long do these cysts last?? Will we all be on abx or other tx modalities forever?
Oh, and happy New Year to all!
Only found one article that deals with this:
Induction of cystic forms by different stress conditions in Borrelia burgdorferi R. MURGIA and M. CINCO
Spirochete Laboratory, Dipartimento di Scienze Biomediche, Universita' degli Studi di Trieste, Via Fleming 22, 34127 Trieste, Italy APMIS 2004;112:57-62.
Cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi might represent a low metabolic activity state or phase of B. burgdorferi cells that allows the spirochete to survive in a hostile environment until conditions are favourable to multiply again.
In this study we evaluated the rate of cyst formation induced by oxidative stress, pH variations, and heating, reconversion of cysts to vegetative forms, and some aspects of their metabolic activity.
We observed cyst formation in the presence of extreme pH values, and at high temperature, but the best production of cystic forms was observed in the presence of H2O2.
When transferred to BSK II medium, the cystic forms reconverted to spirochetes in relation to their age and type of induction treatment.
Furthermore, we demonstrated a low metabolic activity of cystic forms by measuring amino acid incorporation.
Overall, these data suggest that the phenomenon of conversion to cysts by B. burgdorferi provides a limited survival potential. This short-term survival, however, gives borreliae an additional chance to overcome unfavourable environmental conditions.
Rossella Murgia, Spirochete Laboratory, Dipartimento di Scienze Biomediche, Universita' degli Studi di Trieste, Via Fleming 22, 34127 Trieste, Italy. e-mail: rmurgia/dsbmail.units.it
Borrelia burgdorferi, the aetiological agent of Lyme borreliosis, has the ability to form cystlike structures found in CSF and biopsies of Lyme borreliosis patients (1-3).
In 1998, Brorson & Brorson (4) succeeded in demonstrating the conversion of B. burgdorferi cysts into normal motile borreliae in vitro.
Recent studies have proved that suspensions of cysts can retain infectivity and induce illness in vivo in a mouse model (5).
These data imply that cystic forms are not only a sign of spirochetal degeneration, but might represent a low metabolic activity state or else a phase of the B. burgdorferi cells that allows the spirochete to survive in a hostile environment until conditions are favourable for the borreliae to multiply again.
Generally, conversion of vegetative bacteria to latent forms is induced by environmental factors, such as nutrient depletion, ageing, osmotic changes, acidity variations and oxidative agents.
In B. burgdorferi, induction to cystic forms by nutrient depletion and osmotic changes and their reconversion has already been analysed (6, 7).
In this study we evaluated the rate of cyst formation and reconversion to vegetative forms induced by pH variations, H2O2 and heating; furthermore, we analysed some aspects of cyst metabolic activity and morphological changes.
(Article continues to Methods and Results, and Discussion...)
Thanks for any thoughts!
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Sorry, I can't answer your questions but wanted to give you this link to add to your info on cysts in case you haven't seen it. http://www.lymeinfo.net/medical/LDCysts.pdf
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
My llmd will stop high dose abx every month then give a week break, when the abx is restarted a big herx usually occurs
he says this is a sign that the abx is sensitive to the strain of Bb and the week off may be opening cysts that can then be whacked.
I also wondered why after 8 months of intense abx (I took a two week break) then restarted abx and had horrible new symptoms. He said that the eight straight weeks of abx just keeps the cysts all sealed tight.
Mixing things up by either pulsing or cyst busters keeps the organism in decline...
Of course we don't have enough studies on these things but I trust the llmd's who are on the front line making people well.
-------------------- We are spiritual beings on a human journey...
I was about to send you the same lymeinfo link, tons of reading if you have the time and can grasp it all. Don't know that it will answer your questions though.
Also the work of Alan MacDonald on the cyst form too scary for words. We better find a way go kill these cysts, quickly...
Does anyone have information on Brorson talking about GSE for the cyst form from the 2006 conference?
quote:
�ystein Brorson MD first published works on the cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi in 1995 and he presented stunning electron micrographs of Borrelia cyst forms to the conference. He has found that certain agents can lyse the cyst forms including Metronidazole and Hydroxychloroquine which are used by some Lyme physicians. These are in vitro studies however and they may not reflect events in the host. In fact Dr. Brorson reported that the best anti-cyst agent he has found was crushed grapefruit seed. Was he really suggesting that Lyme patients eat their pips? He did not say.
--------
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Vermont_Lymie
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Member # 9780
posted
Hi everyone, Thanks so much for responding!!
Cave, thanks for your illuminating reply and info. Man, that's the response I am getting to so many questions, even from the expert llmds -- we don't know!
Where are all the health scientists who should be studying this complex and fascinating disease?? But that is another issue....I guess they are not getting the CDC funding.
I am now on 3g/day amoxy; was taking 4g/day before getting the intense GI tract upset.
I saw a new llmd this week who said to go up to 7g/day amoxy, as I still have some persistent serious neuro symptoms and others, despite much relief in the last 5 months...So we will see how that helps over time. I am looking forward to the higher dose, but prob won't start for a couple of weeks 'cause I can't afford to herx now!
Terry: thanks so much for the link and info, I will read it all!
Humanbeing, yes, that sounds like a good strategy, and I totally agree -- I trust my llmd and am going to stick with whatever he recommends, and judge the results as we go...pulsing sounds like a good idea cuz the gut has a time to heal too.
Though of course I would rather deal anyday with the risk and reality of diarrhea than the lyme symptoms I have had for the last two years!
Hi Marsy: Thanks, and yes, I am with you on this! Those cysts have got to go, and more research is needed. Hope you got my PM this week...
posted
My husband had serious problems with flagyl and ended up using the tinidazole (TZ) with many less side effects--was also on Ketec as ampicillin and clarithroymcin were not effective enough.
He found that taking acidophilus was very effective for antibiotic symptoms but it had to be the good or live acidophilus--10 billion units 3x/day or more frequently as needed. He was on both antibiotics for about 1 year continuously and cycled with the side effects as the cysts broke open about every 3-4 weeks.
Dr. M. stopped the antibiotics when he was having no further symptoms which including any symptoms from the cycling.
My husband started treatment when he was functioning at about 25%. We figure he probably had Lyme Disease for 12 years before diagnosis. He has not had any relapses over the past year since off the antibiotics.
Hope this helps.
Posts: 2 | From Central British Columbia | Registered: Dec 2006
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Vermont_Lymie
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Member # 9780
posted
Cave -- that is it -- we are gonna clone ourselves, and then experiment with treatments on them!
Now that the US says that it is safe to eat clones, I guess it is safe to make them!
Karen, thanks for the hopeful and helpful information!
I am really glad to hear that your husband is better, and I am truly happy, always, to hear good news when folks go through treatment and do not relapse when off abx. I hope my llmd will consider tini, because that sounds like an effective cyst-buster and I doubt I can tolerate flagyl.
My best wishes for your and his continuing good health!
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bpeck
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posted
Hi Vt_Lymie....
From what I've read- the classical form of the spirochete can roll into a ball- and create a cyst around itself very quickly (within a day) in the petrie dish. No one knows how fast it caqn do that in the human.
I've also read that spinal fluid is hostile to the spirochete's classical form - so it's always in the cyst form if it's in the spinal fluid.
Whether the body is a hospitable place- or an inhospitalble place - probably depends on the health of the host or where in the body the bacteria is.
I don't think anyone knows for sure if the symptoms you experience after 2 weeks off abx are spirochete emerging from cysts or not... there's alot of guessing when it comes to Lyme, because our tests are so WHOEFULLY inadequate.
IMO, you should get a Candida panel run (IgG, IgM and IgA) if you've been on abx for 5 months. You can disrupt the natural flora in your eyes eras, nose, throat and lungs and become much more susceptible to pneumonia, sore throat, ears, etc..
Good luck.. and it sounds like you're making some progress with Amoxy!. Barb
-------------------- Barb Peck (Elder LymeNet user). Lyme since 1975 Transfusion Posts: 1882 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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bpeck
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UP
-------------------- Barb Peck (Elder LymeNet user). Lyme since 1975 Transfusion Posts: 1882 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
Hi Barb,
Thanks so much for your post and information! That is a great suggestion about Candida, I will mention it to my llmd on the next visit.
I try to keep yeast at bay with garlic, NOW brand Yeast-Busters (not sure if that is the name, it has caprylic acid and other ingredients like Pau D'Arco), and the occassional diflucan 250 mg.
But I still have had some problems, despite virtually eliminating from my diet sweets, alcohol, and most carbs. I still rely on my morning granola, and my husband's pasta is killer!!
So yesterday I started liquid Nystantin in the mouth -- it was so weird, the liquid had the look and consistency (and sweetness) of eggnog. I could not bring myself to actually swallow that stuff, so I will have to look at Nystantin pills for internal yeast.
I think the oral Nystantin has already done my mouth some good though.
The amoxy is helping; so much better than I was six months ago, but still have quite a ways to go!
And yes, I think you are right -- it may not have been the cysts but also whatever intestinal problems I had that made the symptoms so much worse last month during my break from abx.
Thanks and take good care! I may not be on lymenet much this month due to travel and work, but will be around whenever possible to keep learning and sharing!
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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bpeck
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VT_Lymie: SOunds like you're a little better if your traveling for the holidays (or vacation!) That's great. Barb
-------------------- Barb Peck (Elder LymeNet user). Lyme since 1975 Transfusion Posts: 1882 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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