posted
I have been thinking about this for a while now and since it seems there are so many hunters out and about shooting deer and processing the meat
for consumption, (taking a breath) I have wondered if it is possible that a person working with the bloody deer meat of an infected deer
could possibly be exposed to BB or coinfections that way. I understand the difference between deer and deer ticks (I think) but I am just
curious about this and hope someone can clarify this for me.
Also, I have been following obits in my local paper for a while now and paying attention to causes of death and so forth. I have seen some
obits that speak about the deceased being an avid hunter or outdoorsman or hiker and such but no mention is made about cause of death. Don't think
it would be prudent to contact deceased families but I'm keeping my own little tally of these kinds of deaths.
I'll be glad when hunting season is finally over and I don't have to see all the dead deer strapped to the hoods of SUV's and trucks. Poor little bambies!
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: No information presented above should be considered medical advice or take the place of advice given by a medical professional. Links to other sites are provided merely for ease of research. Posts: 287 | From Tennessee | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I have wondered about that also. I know hunters in my area are not at all familiar with lyme disease.
Posts: 538 | From Iowa | Registered: Apr 2006
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just don
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1129
posted
Around here, and most everywhere I could imagine,,,you could ask people for their lyme knowledge.
98 out of 100 hunters wouldnt know what you were talking about,,,cared less, and didnt know enough about it to keep themselves healthy.(Like know what a bullseye wasor sxs of lyme)
It is something that only happens to OTHER people, I cant get THAT!!
-------------------- just don Posts: 4548 | From Middle of midwest | Registered: May 2001
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Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
Yes, Janet.
I am afraid to say that my recent research points to a strong possibility of exposure to many diseases re: venison and other 'game' meat.
In fact I have read of several hunters and those who process meat being exposed and acquiring TBDs.
Melanie
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Gosh, this is really scary and one wonders how many people have become infected in this way and have had illnesses which they attribute to
something else. I have a friend whose husband is an avid hunter. He dresses his own deer meat. Both he and my friend show definite signs of BB.
I have spoken to my friend about this but I'm met with skepticism. My friend asked her doctor about Lyme and he told her there was no Lyme in East TN.
She'd rather believe him than me. She and hubby do not have health insurance. Her doc said he would run a test (ELISA) if she wanted...I told
her not to bother. Also, if she WAS convinced that she and husband might have Lyme, what am I to say about the limited amount of doctors who
DX and TX Lyme. She knows the difficulties I have had getting diagnosed. She takes it to mean that I don't really have Lyme disease. She, like
so many others, believes in the old medical model which elevates doctors to a place just under that of God....and they are always right.
My son-in-law is also a hunter and exhibits many symptoms of Lyme. My daughter and grandsons all have Lyme but he doesn't believe he has it, thinks
he is just getting the symptoms that come with age. Denial is a powerful defense mechanism that protects us from "bad" news or information that
we just can't deal with. I think warning hunters through their licensing boards might be a good place to start but that would entail convincing
those agencies that there is the potential for hunters to become ill while hunting with their permits. Because these boards make money by
selling hunting permits I wonder if they would want to jeopardize the very thing that brings in the bucks (no pun intended.)
Besides deer, hunting also includes birds, ducks, rabbits, turkey and other species which could potentially be infected with Lyme and coinfections.
Another reason for spreading the news about Lyme....
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Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
Janet,
I was speaking with my best friend yesterday...and she said something very poignant to me.
A 75 yo gentleman went into see his physician one day. He complained of his right leg hurting.
His physician said, "well it is just old age."
The hurting gentle man answered... "then why doesn't my left leg hurt?"
NOW...we know that pain is the body's way of telling us something is wrong!
We can believe that it is age, or a numerous other number of reasons, but the pain speaks for itself.
I am sorry that you know so many who are suffering...you can provide them with information, and you can leave the door open...
But, you can NOT get anyone to accept anything that they are not willing to accept.
posted
For the number of hunting liscense,sold throughtout the United States,The amount of lyme infections is probably lower than people in short pants enjoying a day at the park.They are the uneducated.Hunters were suits or at least pants.I read deer dont aquire lyme disease,they just transport the tick.I have never seen many sick deer,they seem muscular and healthy here in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 15 | From New Castle,Pa. | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I have never seen many sick deer, they seem muscular and healthy here in Pennsylvania.
Betty, I don't mean to criticize your post but I just have to chime in that you could apply the same statement to humans in Pennsylvania or any
other state. It's like the saying we Lymies so often hear: "But you don't LOOK sick." Just because you haven't seen what you believe to be
sick deer doesn't mean there aren't any infected. And they are certainly not getting tested for BB or coinfections.
My reference to hunting licensing boards was just an aside remark...me sort of thinking outloud about some potential difficulties in getting
information out to hunters about potential risks of acquiring Lyme disease. Hunters (and their families) might choose not to pay attention to
any warnings but I believe that they should have information that could help them protect themselves if they desire.
There are so many instances where people were/are provided information and have chosen to do nothing with it. That's human nature. Until
someone has a personal stake in compiling info about a situation (as in becoming ill and not knowing what is causing the illness) he/she may
be inclined to tell themselves "not me." Just MHO. Janet
"Home, home on the range, where the deer and NOT antelope play; where seldom is heard a discouraging word and the skies are not cloudy all day."
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posted
Boy,,, is this topic a good question. One of my step daughters lives on a farm in Wisconsin. She sends us several pounds of Summer Deer Sausage for Christmas.
It is not raw. It is ready to eat. Her family got 11 deer this season..
They live on the meat.( The cost of beef is very high in Wisconsin)
They have it processed by a professional meat packer...
What do I do with it?? I believe without a doubt that raw deer meat can pass lyme... I gave up years ago of warning her of lyme.. Yeah, she shows symptoms.
The sausage is really good. I blast it with the microwave until it steams. But, I still feel uneasy eating it... The bart is a tough bug..
My wife finally is cured of lyme after 20 years and she refuses to eat it or touch it.
I guess we should dump the sausage in the garbage... I wonder if the sausage making process kills the bugs...
Of course we won't tell the daughter...
Tj
Posts: 192 | From Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
There were almost 300,000 deer killed this season in my state of Missouri. Considering the hunters, butchers, taxidermists and consumers of the meat, the number of people who come in contact with deer could easily double.
I find it hard to imagine, though it is possible, that this is of any concern.
I contracted Lyme from the bite of an infected tick. I think that most hunters (big surprise here) are also bit by ticks. Probably more often than those "suit wearing people (?)."
There is always risk in eating anything. I would rather eat venison that I cleaned myself than spinach.
Posts: 20 | From Platte City, MO | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tj33: They live on the meat.( The cost of beef is very high in Wisconsin)
Tj
Is there a difference between the two? If deer in an area are infected with "lyme" what are the chances cattle, squirrels, rabbits, etc are all infected at the same rate?
We need to keep in mind not all borrelia are the same. There are probably thousands of "strains" and lots of folks have borrelia with no detrimental health effects at all. "Lyme" borrelia however will always produce inflamation and thus disease.
Whether due to a damaged gene or it being weaponised I doubt we ever know. IMO we are dealing with a damaged gene.
Any animal living in the wild would have a very difficult time living with the "Lyme" borrelia and in all probability the animal with it's "Lyme" Bb strain should have a short life span.
The strains which produce no inflamation/disease survive and pass on their genes.
Kinda a darwin survival of the fittest only I would change it slightly to survival of the stealthiest.
[ 03. January 2007, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: brentb ]
Posts: 731 | From Humble,TX | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I thought I would add a couple of thoughts here. My husband just dx'd with with lyme (although wouldn't get tested for years) is an avid outdoorsmans.
He loves to hunt, fish etc. Travels all over the US (Colorado, Montana, Illinios, Texas, Pa, NY, NJ Ohio) and outside the US (Newfoundland) to persue his hobby.
When you are issued a license for certain types of firearms, there is a section on the Educational DVD's that warn hunters of Lyme.
You have to watch these to pass the required tests to acquire a license. They even tell them to wear rubber gloves when "gutting/dressing" the animals. I was shocked that they even mentioned it.
He called me in the room to watch, the information they gave about lyme was more accurate than I expected.
To the next point...we were eating alot of venison last December when my daughter got ill. The tenderloin is wonderful. Go out west and it is on every five-star restarunt around.
Venison is very lean, so it is popular with meat eaters who are carfeful about their fat consumption. But, b/c of this, it has to be cooked medium rare or it turns to leather.
Well, I won't take the chance anymore. I won't let anyone in my family eat it anymore. Not worth the risk!!I don't know if it was a coinsidence or not, but she got sick two weeks later.
I have a lot of freezer space now!!
Posts: 263 | From Georgia | Registered: Feb 2006
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It's great to hear that hunters taking the tests they need for licensing are given education about Lyme where you live.
Here, all you need is a six pack of beer, a plug of chewing tobacco and the money for the license. Also need to say that some of my best
friends are hunters. ;-)
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
Betty G's LYME/TICK BROCHURE with LDA info plus other stuff from Betty including:
lyme books, support groups, lyme/co-infection illnesses, symptoms, diagnosis, treatments, hunting /gardening ... how to dress; how to remove ticks, etc.
stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
any meat fish or poutry you eat these days even if grown yourself is filled with harmful bacteria. salmonella, ecoli, treponemia, mad cow and multiple many more.
prior cleaning, with gloves on, proper cooking to the right temperature to kill the bacteria in question. and proper cleanup after cleaning with blech and paper towels is crutial. don't use same sponge for counter as dishes. don't use sponge to clean after cleaning food use disposable towels. let bleach,clorox or generic is fine) sit on the counter or prep area for at least 10 minutes prior to wiping, making sure it stays wet for 10 minutes. get a spray bottle of bleach for under your sink.
keep bleach away from clothes, wear apron or you will have white spots on clothes.
the jewish custom of keeping kosher is a custom brought down for many generations from the time of the bible. it is a growing custom among non jewish people and muslems. what is a custom now was a necessity to survive in the desert. what are these laws you may ask, i'll tell you!!!
1) kosher meat, poultry must be killed swiftly, with a knife, and upside down to drain all blood. this is to remove any bacteria in the bodies blood. 2) kosher meats are salted, this is to preserve the meats and keep them from spoiling without refrigeration. 3) only fish with scales can be eaten.catfish and carp are not kosher, they feed on remains on the ocean bottom. All crustaceans, shrimp, lobster,crabs, oysters, that feed on bottom remains are not kosher. this prevents disease like ecoli and others from spreading from floor of ocean to you. 4) only holved split holved animals are allowed to be eaten. animals that eat scrap from the groud, pig, horses, and others .this is to prevent mainly trichomonas. 5) can't eat milk and meat together. this is to prevent spoiled milk product bacteria from infecting the meat being eaten. Many others, but these laws were written 4000 years ago in the desert, without refrigeration, presevatives and proper cooking temperature. they were found by trial and error andd the error lost.
most of these laws don't really apply today, until madcow came along. kosher meat cows are only suppose to eat grass or grain, no other foods, ie animal parts. that's why they now have grain fed chickens.
fish was also salted as a preservative, but fresh fish is allowed.
DOCDAVE
[ 04. January 2007, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: stymielymie ]
Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
I've posted this before so people are probably tired of hearing it.
I know a couple - husband and wife - here in my little "no Lyme" town who swear they got Lyme from gutting an antelope they shot near here. Something seemed ``odd'' about the insides of animal so they never even ate any of the meat.
They both became symptomatic at the same time after the antelope incident. Neither person saw a tick, had a bite, had a rash, etc. Their doctors here were baffled as to what it could be (duh), and they were both finally diagnosed by an LLMD, which included positive Lyme tests.
I know that Lyme spirochetes have been found in dairy cattle in Wisconsin, so....
....in my book, contact with infected blood can make you sick under the right circumstances.
I have no idea what information hunters here are given when they get a license for deer, elk, or antelope. Not to mention bird licenses or small game licenses. I should try to find out.
And by the way, I don't think deer are affected by being infected with Bb. If they were, I think we would see a lot more lameness and animals that looked skinny even during good weather.
Of course, there are 2 times a year when ALL the deer (and other big game) look like they have some dreaded plague. When their coats are changing from winter to summer or vice versa, they all look absolutely sick and unhealthy, with patches of hair falling out, some patches are gray, some are brown. You would think they were all severely diseased. But it's just the normal transition.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Areneli
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Member # 6740
posted
The official consensus is that the deer do not get Lyme disease; just provide feed for ticks.
But nobody talks to deer so we don't know if they experience unexplained fatigue or numbness of hoofs.
If official consensus is wrong (and we know they err sometimes ) you may get infected from meat. But hunters also get ticks so it is impossible to say what is from what.
Posts: 1538 | From Planet Earth | Registered: Jan 2005
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
i'm just ticked off at this subject!!!!!!! stymie Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
I would be more worried about Babesiosis from eating raw meat because that has been documented in mice. I believe it probably happens a lot!!!
Parasitol Res 1994;80(8):645-8 Related Articles,
Experimental transmission of Babesia microti infection by the oral route.
Malagon F, Tapia JL. Depto. de Microbiologia y Parasitologia, Facultad de Medicina, UNAM, Mexico.
Previously we have described the transmission of malaria by the oral route in a murine model. Due to the similarities between Plasmodium and Babesia, we tried to reproduce oral transmission in parasites of the latter genus by ingestion of infected blood and by cannibalism. In the first case, experimental mice were inoculated orally with 20, 50, or 100 microliters of Babesia microti-infected blood, and in the second, each fasted experimental mouse was offered the corpse of an infected mouse serving as the bait inoculum. B. microti infection was acquired by 3.7% of all experimental animals orally inoculated with infected blood and by 15.1% of all mice inoculated by cannibalism. The approximate period of prepatency ran from 2 to 4 weeks. No control mouse acquired the infection. This represents the first time that oral transmission of babesiosis has been described. This kind of transmission may be present in nature. Babesiosis may be acquired and maintained in nature in the absence of ticks.
PMID: 7886033 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Wiad Parazytol 1996;42(4):395-406 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
[Experimental infection of mice with Babesia microti: characterization of parasitemia]
[Article in Polish]
Konopka E, Sinski E.
Zaklad Parazytologii Instytutu Zoologii UW, Warszawa.
The apicomplexa parasites of the genus Babesia, the etiologic agents of the disease not only in domestic and wild mammals but also in humans, live and reproduce in erythrocytes of the host. Transmission of Babesia species is by tick (Ixodidae) bite. In natural conditions, trans-stadial and trans-ovarian passage occurs in Ixodes ricinus infected with some species of Babesia, e.g. B. divergens. However, there is apparently trans-stadial passage of B. microti in Ixodes sp. only from larvae to nymphs, but trans-stadial passage from nymphs to adults or trans-ovarian passage has not been reported. The present study was undertaken to compare the parasitemia of B. microti infection in BALB/c and F1 (B10 x CBA) mice by two different methods: intraperitoneal injection of parasites or infection by the oral route. In both groups, experimental mice were inoculated with 5 x 10(7) infected erythrocytes in 100 microliters of blood. Babesia infection was acquired by all mice infected intraperitoneally with maximum 57% of parasitemia on day 6 post infection (pi) in F1 (B10 x CBA) mice and 40% of parasitemia on day 8 and 10 pi in BALB/c mice. Ten of 27 (37%) BALB/c mice infected by oral route showed low parasitemia (9%) during first two weeks pi. In this group of mice the pick of parasitemia (26%) was observed on day 22 pi. In both groups of infected mice the period of prepatency ended between days 35 and 40 pi. Experiments have confirmed that the maintenance of babesiosis may be continued in the absence of a tick vector. Demonstration, under experimental conditions, of infection of Babesia by oral route may suggest that in nature cannibalism of rodents, occurring under certain circumstances, can be considered as a natural way of oral transmission of B. microti.
PMID: 9103050 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
I personally believe this is the link between red meat and breast cancer- Babesiosis.
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
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) you may get infected from meat. But hunters also get ticks so it is impossible to say what is from what.
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