stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
has there been any studies that the cyst forms are dormant or active.
maybe like herpes, ebv, we should let them lie dormant if they are not aggressive in cyst form leave them there. yes they will become active when stressed as do herpes, but we have many inactive forms of disease sitting in our bodies not doing any harm.
may we be doing more harm by breaking up these cysts and having the endotoxins run thru our body?????
just a thought!!!!!!
docdave Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Dr. Alan MacDonald's research on Alzheimers indicates that they are very pathogenic, and are the form he found in massive numbers in the lesions in Alzheimers brain tissue.
posted
I had the same question. I could have sworn that I read something in Buhners book that said that the older the cysts the better because as they get older, the spirochete inside lose their ability to reproduce. That would make me think busting the cysts too early is bad. Did I get that wrong?
Posts: 298 | From Maine | Registered: Jan 2004
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luvs2ride
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posted
I think this is a great question too. And like the Chicken Pox virus, the key after subduing the bugs is to keep our immune systems up keeping the bugs at bay.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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liz28
Unregistered
posted
I find they reactivate whenever I go off ketek or exercise enough to start adding muscle.
posted
I think I'll still take my flagyl.
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Rianna
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Member # 11038
posted
I am on a rotational treatment plan so out of every 8 weeks I take a cyst buster for 2 weeks(Tinidazole and Grapefruit seed as Brorson/Brorson work) then a 2 week rest for cysts to open then back on Bicillin/Ketek for 6 weeks - When I restart Bicillin for the motiles and Ketek for Intracellular the 1st 2 weeks I herx terribly again so I beleive the cysts are opened and I am killing motiles again. On this protocol I have come on leaps and bounds.
So I feel it is very important to try to open cysts but MORE important to be on the correct protocol to then kill the motiles after cyst busting.
clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Rianna said:
quote: I am on a rotational treatment plan so out of every 8 weeks I take a cyst buster for 2 weeks(Tinidazole and Grapefruit seed as Brorson/Brorson work) then a 2 week rest for cysts to open then back on Bicillin/Ketek for 6 weeks - When I restart Bicillin for the motiles and Ketek for Intracellular the 1st 2 weeks I herx terribly again so I beleive the cysts are opened and I am killing motiles again. On this protocol I have come on leaps and bounds.
I have always believed there is something about sequencing that is as important as the medicines or remedies themselves. This makes a lot of sense Rianna. Thank you for sharing this aspect of your treatment protocol and hope you have continued success.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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ByronSBell 2007
Unregistered
posted
Yes you need to kill cysts! Alot of people go through HELL! killing them with drug like Flagyl but they also say that they feel so great afterwards...
Think of the lyme disease as an army. The spirochetes are the soldiers and the cysts are the children, the cysts will turn in to soldiers so you might as well go ahead and kill both...
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ByronSBell 2007
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posted
My LLMD's success rates have shot through the roof with cyst busters. He travels the world researching lyme, has over 18 years under his belt in lyme disease and is one of the best so he would know. Lyme disease has several different forms, kill em' all!
Buy Brian Rosner's books, he has some explaining on them.
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Foggy
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posted
1 LLMD said yes, another said no. I decided to to with the Flagyl to err on the cautious side.
The LLMD who said no wouldn't treat me for Babs. Babs treatment made a BIG difference.
Posts: 2451 | From Lyme Central | Registered: Aug 2001
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ByronSBell 2007
Unregistered
posted
From O. Boroson and S.H. Boroson:
Found 5 nitroimidazoles showed convincing evidence that this class of antibiotic is not only very effective against the cyst form but also the spirochete form, and perhaps even the cell wall defecient form.
The Borosons also reported that they have observed situations in which the 5 nitroimidazoles antibioitcs have led to CURES in chronic lyme disease. The Brorsons choice is tinidazole as "best"
*If you dont know, the Bororsons are prominent lyme researchers and have written alot of scientific studies in Norway and other countrys.
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posted
Keep the discussion flowing. All I can say is that whomever finds a cure, it will because they think outside the box and challenge the ideas we think now, that are not proven.
My problem with flagyl and cyst busting is that I went through all that. I did feel great for two years. (also used biaxin) But then it all came back with a vengence. So did it do any good? Did it kill the cysts? Who knows?
Maybe that means an every two year protocol, or treat until symptoms are gone and see what happens. This is chronic life time disease as for now, and so we are focused on treatment to make ourselves better. But, I don't know, do I do flagyl again or not?
It is hard when I read articles like, "antibiotic use linked with breast cancer" and other scary things about antibiotics. But for me, I MUST use them to exist right now. No overexaggeration. I cannot function without this biaxin.
Posts: 69 | From Washington | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cave76: Then byronbell chimed in:
Yes you need to kill cysts! Alot of people go through HELL! killing them with drug like Flagyl but they also say that they feel so great afterwards...
Think of the lyme disease as an army. The spirochetes are the soldiers and the cysts are the children, the cysts will turn in to soldiers so you might as well go ahead and kill both...
I'd like to see citations or the articles that back up both of those views.
I tend to go with the first quoted snippet, since there have been no study's published about work in vivo.
The second quote----any thing you can give us in addition to the Brorson and MacDonald work (which is NOT negligible by any means ).
Here's another group of researchers who found cysts converting back into spirochetes - this time in vivo (in mice):
Gruntar I, Malovrh T, Murgia R, Cinco M.
Conversion of Borrelia garinii cystic forms to motile spirochetes in vivo. APMIS. 2001 May;109(5):383-8.
Cystic forms (also called spheroplasts or starvation forms) and their ability to reconvert into normal motile spirochetes have already been demonstrated in the Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato complex. The aim of this study was to determine whether motile B. garinii could develop from cystic forms, not only in vitro but also in vivo, in cyst-inoculated mice.
The cysts prepared in distilled water were able to reconvert into normal motile spirochetes at any time during in vitro experiments, lasting one month, even after freeze-thawing of the cysts.
Motile spirochetes were successfully isolated from 2 out of 15 mice inoculated intraperitoneally with cystic forms, showing the infectivity of the cysts. The demonstrated capacity of the cysts to reconvert into motile spirochetes in vivo and their surprising resistance to adverse environmental conditions should lead to further studies on the role and function of these forms in Lyme disease.
PMID: 11478686
Posts: 621 | From US | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
And here's a group from NIH who found spirochetes converting to cysts ex vivo, in a human tonsillar tissue model. (Doesn't show cysts going back to spirochetes, as the study above.)
Duray PH, Yin SR, Ito Y, Bezrukov L, Cox C, Cho MS, Fitzgerald W, Dorward D, Zimmerberg J, Margolis L.
Invasion of human tissue ex vivo by Borrelia burgdorferi. J Infect Dis. 2005 May 15;191(10):1747-54.
Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto is an etiological agent of Lyme disease. The lack of an adequate ex vivo system for human tissue infection is an obstacle to fully understanding the molecular mechanisms of invasion of tissue by B. burgdorferi and its adaptation within the human host.
Here, we report on the development of such a system. We inoculated blocks of human tonsillar tissue with B. burgdorferi spirochetes, cultured them in a low-shear rotating wall vessel (RWV) bioreactor, and analyzed them using light and electron microscopy, nested polymerase chain reaction (PCR), and quantitative real-time PCR. Also, we evaluated the expression of the outer surface proteins (Osps) OspA and OspC by use of quantitative Western blotting. Light and electron microscopic analysis revealed multiple spirochetes localized extracellularly within the tissue, and their identity was confirmed by PCR.
Quantification of spirochetes inside the RWV-cultured tonsillar tissue demonstrated that the number of B. burgdorferi exceeded the initial inoculum by an order of magnitude, indicating that spirochetes replicated in the tissue. Electron microscopic analysis showed that some spirochetes were arranged in cystic structures and that invading spirochetes differentially expressed surface proteins; both of these features have been described for infected tissues in vivo.
The system we have developed can be used to study B. burgdorferi pathogenesis under controlled conditions ex vivo, in particular to explore the gene activation responsible for the adaptation of B. burgdorferi to human tissue that leads to Lyme disease.
PMID: 15838803
Posts: 621 | From US | Registered: Jun 2006
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
bsb: nitroimidazole are considered antiprotozoan drugs not antibiotics.
i still think that cyts in remission are far better than busting them and releasing more toxins into the delicate immune system.
we have many bugs in us that are in a remission stage. there is no reason to think that bb in remission will do any more harm than herpes or hepatitis in remission.
i do believe at this time controlled remission is better for the body than trying to "bust them" and them try to kill them.
so people definitely need to go after these forms but many of us, that can somewhat control these bugs, then remission is not so bad.
i can live confortably with my body in remission and treat the minor pain, alergies, eyes.
i do believe, the more i read, that herxing may not be as good as we think. herxing allows strong neurotoxins to run free in our blood stream, eventually leading to brain barrier problems and neurolyme.
my neurolyme did not come until after my first massive dose of iv rocephin. pulsing along with detoxing may be more impotant in the "cure" than the massive release of an uncontrolled amount of neurotoxins.
my oppinion, and i will stick to my oppinion until i can read articles to disprove this theory. like any theory, it is a theory ,and has not been proved. we shall see.
docdave
Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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ByronSBell 2007
Unregistered
posted
Yall can stay sick, all I care is I am going to be 100% healed of this disease.
I am seeing maybe the 2 best doctors in the country. Dr. C and Lance Armstrong's doctor. They are working together perfectly! They are agreeing on everything and they both believe that I have the ability to 100% knock this disease out and I'm gonna prove it one of these days.
One thing we are doing for sure is killing the cysts! The cyst are just like little bombs waiting to blow up in your body and start the whole mess again.
I am starting to get really agressive in my treatment lately. I told Dr. C and my DOM, I want to be 70-80% by the end of this summer. We are going for it!
I am on zithro. will start treatment for babesia and will start killing cyst. We are also going to bump my hormones up some more and increase detox with IV glutathione 1-2 times per week along with other detox things. Then after a month of this we are adding in hydrogen peroxide followed by detox regime. My DOM talked with me about IV hydrogen peroxide and it is 99% safe especially working with him. The hyperbaric oxygen chamber is worse for the body than IV H2O2.
And if you question my DOM, he treats cancer patients the alternative way and in the 10 years he has been practicing= 0 deaths so far.
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posted
Byron, be careful. I think it is statistically impossible to treat cancer patients for ten years and have not one die from their disease.
However, I'm not being a doubter, just be careful.
Now, I admire you and I'm interested in your treatment plan, so please keep us posted. If you do get cured of this, you will be mapping out the way for all of us, and I'll name my first child after you.
Best of luck to you, keep posting!!!
Posts: 69 | From Washington | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The reason I agree with you StymieLymie is because even when people "bust the cysts" and go in to remission, they will relapse. Remission implies relapse. No relapse would be "cure."
So, this begs the question. Did busting the cysts enable them to be in remission? Or was it irrelevant?
I agree with you that we have many viruses that lie dormant in our bodies, herpes, ebv, varicella, etc., etc., etc. I just don't think there are bacteria that lie dormant, are there? And spirochetes? They are a nasty brand.
I would skip trying to bust the cysts if I thought I could do it and just enjoy remission. I haven't figured it out yet.
I love this conversation, thank you all for being such great thinkers!!!!
Posts: 69 | From Washington | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
StymieLymie, what is the best detox protocol, that an average person who doesn't want to see a doctor can do. Like over the counter . . .what do you recommend?
Are you a physician? (wondering about the doc dave)
Thanks again.
Posts: 69 | From Washington | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The cysts prepared in distilled water were able to reconvert into normal motile spirochetes at any time during in vitro experiments, lasting one month, even after freeze-thawing of the cysts. ---------- EVEN AFTER FREEZE THAWING! This is so depressing, I don't think these can ever really be totally eradicated, they survive that?
Posts: 69 | From Washington | Registered: Jan 2007
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
i was a dentist for 25 years lyme for 14 7 undiagnosed
i thought i had i licked 3 years ago. was at 100%. playing tournament tennis in 100 degree weather
then hit a wall and never fully recovered, just started playing tennis after knee surgery but willnever be 100% again.
i have been in remission 4 times. longest was 2 years.
SO ,NO I DO NOT THINK YOU CAN KILL THE CYSTS.
ANDYES MANY BACTERIA LIE DORMANT IN THE BODY READY TO ATTACK
the mouth had about 50 with treponmia (a spirocete that causes ANUG)
ecoli in gut staph aureus in mouth and stomach.
so yes we live with very dangerous bacteria also. and yes even after freze drying the cysts could be reactivated. very scary!!!!!!!!!!!!
the only cure that in can see in the futture is t to tag the bacteria, like cancer cells and sending in agents that can read the tag.
even so ,you still have the problem of neurotoxins. i do not know much about detoxing
everybodies got an angle, but they all end up back here.
very few get "cured"
docdave
Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Yes
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
My philosophy and actual experience on this is ----- get rid of emotional trash and environmental toxins, chemicals and heavy metals - mainly mercury - and the cysts will have no reason to stay behind.
As long as we hang on to the toxic terrain and keep adding to it, the microbes, any of them, will hang around.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
CAVEY- just fyi- there is a way now to study this in vivo- hasn't been done yet- but could be*)!*)*!)!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Duray rules!!!!!! ***************************************
1: J Infect Dis. 2005 May 15;191(10):1747-54.
Invasion of human tissue ex vivo by Borrelia burgdorferi.
Duray PH, Yin SR, Ito Y, Bezrukov L, Cox C, Cho MS, Fitzgerald W, Dorward D, Zimmerberg J, Margolis L. Department of Pathology, National Cancer Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA. [email protected]
Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto is an etiological agent of Lyme disease. The lack of an adequate ex vivo system for human tissue infection is an obstacle to fully understanding the molecular mechanisms of invasion of tissue by B. burgdorferi and its adaptation within the human host.
Here, we report on the development of such a system. We inoculated blocks of human tonsillar tissue with B. burgdorferi spirochetes, cultured them in a low-shear rotating wall vessel (RWV) bioreactor, and analyzed them using light and electron microscopy, nested polymerase chain reaction (PCR), and quantitative real-time PCR.
Also, we evaluated the expression of the outer surface proteins (Osps) OspA and OspC by use of quantitative Western blotting. Light and electron microscopic analysis revealed multiple spirochetes localized extracellularly within the tissue, and their identity was confirmed by PCR.
Quantification of spirochetes inside the RWV-cultured tonsillar tissue demonstrated that the number of B. burgdorferi exceeded the initial inoculum by an order of magnitude, indicating that spirochetes replicated in the tissue.
Electron microscopic analysis showed that some spirochetes were arranged in cystic structures and that invading spirochetes differentially expressed surface proteins; both of these features have been described for infected tissues in vivo.
The system we have developed can be used to study B. burgdorferi pathogenesis under controlled conditions ex vivo, in particular to explore the gene activation responsible for the adaptation of B. burgdorferi to human tissue that leads to Lyme disease.
PMID: 15838803
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
This thread is better than weed.
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posted
Well than, in that case, could you pass the thread, I need another hit
Oh, and I also think we need to break cysts and that not everyone relapses and some people even get cured.
Posts: 554 | From Naples, Italy | Registered: Jun 2006
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stymielymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10044
posted
Baloney!!!!!
pass it over here please!!!!! where are the brownies, cobby did you make the brownies yet!!!!!!
man thats good Posts: 1820 | From Boone and Southport, NC | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I did several courses of flagyl....I bet I have some cysts left...I hope ,just few of them though after my flagyl "experience"
The first course I thought I was going to literally die from headaches.At that time I took flagyl only 2 days every week...low dosage.
Then stopped for months, and later on I was prescribed again flagyl larger doses but 2 weeks in a row on flagyl then 2 weeks off, again 2 weeks on in a row till completing 3 sets of two weeks on flagyl...
stopped again for several months and then 6 weeks in a row on flagyl non stopping!!
At the end of these 6weeks course I didn't feel anything at all...it was like taking probiotics..
Am I cured from lyme ? NO
Am I in remission with a quality of life? YES,big time and pain free 100%
Will I relapse? I don't know, but the odds are high.
What am I currently doing: Cowden's and being a slave of the #^$%E&%^ diet and exercises!!!!
Posts: 983 | From The sky | Registered: Feb 2005
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