bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
I'm surprised the post by Cave on Jadins protocol for Rickettsia didn't generate more interest.
This is a well thought out pulsing regime- and I for one would like to hear more about it from anyone in Europe (besides Gabrielle- thank for posting Gabrielle).
I'm interested because I also pulsed sucessfully using quite a bit of the tetracycline family - and I backed off when having flash back symptoms - or exacerbation of present symptoms.
Antone else out there pulsing- following Jardin's protocol?
clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Quote from original article:
"Obviously one germ can cause many diseases depending on a selective topicality for one or more particular tissues as well as one disease can be caused by different germs alone or simultaneously.
Therefore we would like to concentrate on the causative agent, rather than on the name of, and the criteria to classify, the diseases."
After much time spent looking at the many posts here, and consequently, the many diseases, I have often felt that perhaps the name of the disease isn't important anymore. Maybe there really is only one disease, just different symptoms.
In looking at a post recently on a connection between Alzheimers and LD, someone mentioned that chlamydia pnemonia was the real possible culprit (I think that is how I understood it). I went to look at the link provided and tried to read through the symptoms etc. Yes... same as LD. Then I went to look at the treatment. Same abx treatment that I have seen listed for LD.
This seemed worth noting.
Also the article mentioned sequencing. This might be as important as actual abx, as well as the concept and timing of breaks.
Important research and article.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by bpeck: [QB] I'm surprised the post by Cave on Jadins protocol for Rickettsia didn't generate more interest.
Barb,
If I had more energy, I'd write about my experience with the Jadin protocol, and with Jadin herself, as I met her in Belgium and then was in contact with her re testing and treatment.
Let's just say that I think she's definitely understood her father's teachings very well and that she most definitely understands that many "chronic" illnesses are due to intracellular bacteria like Rickettsia and chlamydia.
BUT she does not deal in borrelia. She worked out her regimen quite a few years ago now and it has not evolved (unlike Garth Nicolson's who is now including borrelia in his thinking about chronic infectious processes). In fact when I mentioned Borrelia to her (as i had had many tick-bites) she just waved her hand and said: "the tests are not reliable, too hard!"
She lives in South Africa, she has many interests besides medicine. She did the rounds of the CFS scene (conferences etc)in the late 90s early 2000s, but her approach although interesting, needs to be used with more flexibility than she is willing to do. What I got from her was: "my approach helps many, I don't really care for the patients who don't quite make it following my regimen."
I was EXTREMELY ill when I saw her, and when I started her regimen, I thought I was dying on just 100 mg of doxy (the herx was out of this planet) I remember ringing her crying, my heart was stopping constantly, dozens of time a night, I couldn't sleep a wink, and she just snapped at me and told me to sleep propped up on a pillow, end of story.
I don't know whether the pulsing regimen is appropriate or not, I know it nearly killed me but as it was my first abx treatment and as I was deathly ill at the time I have no idea whether it was better or worse than other regimens. A continuous abx regimen might REALLY have killed me at the time (99)
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
The cardiologist even wrote his thesis on the topic of rickettsia and the heart but he must've forgotten all about it later on as he then went on to practise like most of his peers as if bacteria didn't really play a part in heart disease.
He was my cardiologist when I had very bad arrhythmia and he was absolutely baffled when he saw how my heart rhythm went from worryingly erratic (a pacemaker was suggested) to completely normal "just with abx".
The other doctor is Philippe Bott�ro who practises in a small country town in the South of France and who has been treating patients with CFS/ME with long term abx (basically one week per month on a combo of a cycline + a macrolide) for several years if need be. He claims to have cured or vastly improved many people incl people with psychiatric symptoms (see below)
C�cile Jadin (daughter of Prof Jadin of Belgium) has also been involved in treating patients for what she suggests are chronic Rickettsial and Chlamydial infections with long term abx pulses
Philippe Bottero, General Practitioner, Faculte de Medecine, International College of Rickettsiologists,
Abstract:
Objective: To demonstrate the probable role of intracellular bacteria like Rickettsiae and Chlamydiae in the development of certain chronic psychopathological conditions and according to the efficiency of antibiotic regimes (cyclines and/or macrolides). The letter aim is based on the fact that all the patients that I have seen since 1981 had a sera reaction positive for Rickettsiae and/or Chlamydiae using the micro-agglutination on blade technique of P. Giroud and M.L. Giroud (MAG) by Prof. J.B. Jadin of Antwerpen, Belgium with special antigens cultured on guinea pig lungs and chicken embryos. Methods: This is an open study which began in 1981 in a private medical practice, not versus placebo; but with random choice. Treatment was for a minimum of six months (cyclines and/or macrolides together with vasodilatory medication; chloroquine; warm baths). Group one: 98 CFS cases; women: 78, men: 20; for 67 cases, the ancientness of symptoms is more than 2 years. Group two: 59 psycho-somatic cases; 5 schizophrenia; 3 borderline; 10 children with agressivity, excitement; 1 autistic child; 1 delirium with relapses. Results: Group one: 79.5% good and very good results; 4.1% fairly good; 16.4% failed. Group two: 82.3% good and very good results; 2.5% fairly good; 15.2% failed. Conclusion: This diagnostic and therapeutic study began in 1981. All of the Dr. Bottero's therapeutic results are confirmed since 1991 by Dr. Cecile Jadin of Randburg (South Africa) for more than 3000 CFS and other psychopathological states (300): Sydney 98 CFS Conference, Australia. We have shown that Rickettsiae and Chlamydiae are probably causative factors in many ''psychopathologies.''
Journal Title: Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Multidisciplinary Innovations in Research, Theory, and Clinical Practice Volume: 6 Issue: 3/4 ISSN: 1057-3321 Pub Date: 9/1/1998
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
Nelly:
It's my opinion- that if I had not pulsed my first course of Doxy as I did - the herx would have given me a stroke or a seizure. I had a debilitating herx 6 hrs after my first dose.
I know 2 people who did have seizures who's symptoms were similar (neuro) to mine and used continual abx while herxing..
I'm now getting interested in what Jardin's protocol is for Rickettsia... curious... Barb
Barb
Nelly wrote: "I don't know whether the pulsing regimen is appropriate or not, I know it nearly killed me but as it was my first abx treatment and as I was deathly ill at the time I have no idea whether it was better or worse than other regimens. A continuous abx regimen might REALLY have killed me at the time (99)
I'm glad now that I'm doing the J.-Protocol with my own doctor - that doesn't sound very friendly what you are reporting about Dr. J.
I hope that her protocol is helping hubby who's main problem are Chlamydia pneumoniae. He has little or no Lyme symptoms. But I'm a bit doubtful if the breaks are good for him. And when you compare it to the Wheldon protocol is sounds just like not enough abx.
Myself, up to now I really like it. I was doing constant abx during 2,5 years before and in the end I felt completely poisoned (although I think that was due to Bactrim - which I simply cannot support).
Well, we'll see. If I see that hubby is not making enough progress then I'll switch him to Wheldon.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
The pulsing regimen that Jadin uses might be very good for people who don't have Lyme (and especially for people who don't have Babesia) in the infectious mix, or it may be good for people who have lyme but who have already done sevral months/years of abx. Or for people who are not as sick as I was, or not as long as I had been without treatment or...or...or...
Who knows!
And I am not really blaming her for not being very sympathetic or helpful when I was herxing so badly. I was in France she was in South Africa and I think she just couldn't have imagined just how bad I was. I really thought I was going to die.
I am still extremely grateful to her for having shared her approach and her ideas re chronic illness and chronic Rickettsial infections at the Manly conference in Sydney in 99 when I first heard her speak.
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Like you Barb, I have not been able to do the tetracyclines at full dose. They cause a very powerful punch in me. Put me in the ER. If I had continued at full dose, it surely seems like it would have killed me.
Never the less, what I have taken has made a HUGE difference. I nave never taken anything other then tetras.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
with your experiences of herxing badly from Doxy: Do you believe that Doxy is only bacteriostatic? Doesn't herx means dead bugs?
I've often wondered ...
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
My understanding is that abx are very specific as to which bacterias they are effective on. So, if, as Cave said to me earlier, there is no way to test for Rickettsia then it would all be just winging it. Guess work.
Clairenotes is right about these different diseases having similar to identical symptoms. If the diagnosis is clinical, how do you know which microbe is the responsible culprit and hence which abx will be correct and effective and not excerbate the issue such as would be the case if your symptoms are coming from yeast instead of lyme?
My doctor says you are shooting at the sound of ducks rather than the duck itself. I agree.
One of the most attractive things to me about holistic care is that it is good for many different bacterial, viral and fungus related illnesses. Also, it is most times supportive to the body, not damaging.
I was interested in this article but before I begin firing abx into my system, I want to know that I actually have the enemy.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Quickly, let me correct myself. Cave did not say there was no way to test. He said he didn't know what to do at this point.
Sorry Cave.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Your success with Minocin years ago prompted me to request it from my LLMD.
I used it on and off for about two years in a fairly "loose" pulsing regimen. Sometimes I added Zithromax.
Now I'm off of everything and really feel great.
I mostly use supplements and alot of exercise to keep the little critters under control. I will pulse again if I have a flare up of some kind, but so far so good, after 6 months abx free.
For me, the Mino-Zithro pulsing combo really seemed to work.
BTW - Doxycycline never did anything for me.
Hope this helps....
Spot Posts: 72 | From Loudoun county, VA | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
trueblue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7348
posted
Thanks Barb for bring this up and for Cave posting the topic so I could miss it the first time.
I've been looking at the pulsing protocols, with great interest, as I'm pretty sure these are the only way for me to treat, at all, at this point. (I have only started reading them and am having some trouble putting enough pieces together to make a plan.)
I have attempted the occasional pulse before but under an LLMD that insisted I take too high a dose with too little time in between. The Cpn and Rickettsia are different and offer me some hope.
thanks for giving more places to look for ideas.
(I've been having an awful time taking oral ABX for the past few years. Doxy especially and recently, I last 3-4 days at 50-100 mg before I must stop(because I would have to be hospitalized past that point). I just had the same thing( only different symptoms) happen on 125 mgs of Biaxin.)
-------------------- more light, more love more truth and more innovation Posts: 3783 | From somewhere other than here | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
Spotted Pony:
Our thinking is similar. I' mot sure if my therapy killed ALL the lyme bacteria either - but I know I'm symptom free (although still skin issues I'm not sure from what) and I feel better now than I have for the previous .. oh.. 20+ years. SO what ever critters are left - hopefully my immune system will keep them corraled up.
BUT I will have no problem taking abx again if I think Lyme has re-emerged.
Time will tell. Barb
Posts: 1875 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mino/Zith is the answer for Borrelia/Mycoplasma and Chlaymidia Pneumoniae. Sometimes patients later add in pulses of Tinidazole or Flagyl to kill the cyst stage. Stratton/Wheldon (dr's who are curing MS patients with this protocol -cpn.org) believe you must use all three to kill the CPN organism in all it's stages.
I wish all Lymies would see this post because Mino/zith is really the answer. Forget the Rocephin and penicillins. A waste of time as it always comes back with a vengance.
Oh, well. I hope some lymies read this.
Be well all.
Chris
Posts: 770 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
The website says Doxy + Roxi (Zith can be substitited). Is there some updated material that says Mino instead of Doxy? It would seem logical that Biaxin could be substituted for Roxi also.
"It may seem unlikely that doxycycline, roxithromycin and rifampicin can kill chlamydiae; they are, after all, considered to be bacteriostatic agents -- normally they inhibit rather than kill bacteria. However, intracellular Chlamydia pneumoniae must continuously elaborate proteins to ensure its own survival within the host-cell."
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
You have to be carefull when substituting one drug for another- drugs in the same chemical class don't always use the same metabolic pathway.. i.e. erythromycin and zithromycin
You'd have to do some research on the US brand of the same drug - and make sure there no interacts when substituting. Barb
Posts: 1875 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know that Mino + Biaxin or Doxy + Biaxin are both compatible combos because I have been on both. Maybe Welding feels that Zith works better than Biaxin. I was just wondering if Welding had made a change from Doxy to Mino like Myco had posted that wasn't listed on his website.
I would like people to note also that there has been an ongoing debate here about using Tetra's + Flagyl in combo. Dr B's guidelines state that they may be antagonistic when used together. Welding does use them together, as do many other Dr's.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
For Lyme..My Doc made the change from Doxy to Mino, because Mino penetrates the BBB better than Doxy. But I purposely started with Doxy because we didn't want to go into the brain too soon. After Mino monotherapy- then I went on to the combo's
Re Stratton: I agree with Micul.. read this.. "Dead Bugs don't Mutate"
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) 
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic